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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:51 LegalLord wrote: It really is a shame Obama won that one. We would be a third of the way through Romney's second term right now. Romney is fine as long as he isn’t governing my state or the country. Utah can have him and he is a fine replacement for Hatch. Sincerely, A Masshole. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:51 LegalLord wrote: It really is a shame Obama won that one. We would be a third of the way through Romney's second term right now. because we're doing so well right now with a republican in office right? | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:26 Introvert wrote: It just occurred to me how amusing it is that Mitt "Russia is our #1 geopolitical foe" Romney announces another run for office on the same day we find out concrete details about Russian meddling LOL. And to think he was mocked by the president! #Romneywasright #Romney2012 edit: sorry I had to indulge just a little. Its the one thing that basically everyone agrees on. Romney was actually correct about Russia and Obama seriously screwed up there. | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
I expected Manafort, Gates, Flynn, and Papadopolous to get indicted or make plea deals. I figured that Mueller would try to go after as many Russian actors as he could. But I've never even heard of this guy. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
Maybe it's just typical Greenwald talking points, but some skepticism to temper the enthusiasm is nice I guess? Though this is a fairly extraordinary speed the probe is taking according to Five-Thirty-Eight, Our analysis of special counsel probes in the modern era, starting in 1979, puts Mueller’s investigation in select company for producing criminal charges at all — a majority of the investigations over the past four decades ended without charges being filed against anyone. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On February 17 2018 04:47 crms wrote: The best part of reading through the indictment so far has been the naming of the twitter account, @TEN_GOP. I know i had to tell Danglars at least once how bullshit that account was when he linked their tweet about CNN coverage. Hilarious. And a reminder that Trump Jr. and Kellyanne Conway retweeted that account numerous times as well. Russian troll propaganda was pushed by the highest levels of the Trump campaign. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:55 hunts wrote: because we're doing so well right now with a republican in office right? Well it's either that or just assuming that if someone had a choice quote that made them look prescient that it means they are instantly better than the alternative that didn't make sense in the moment but through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses looks like a great idea. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:05 LegalLord wrote: Well it's either that or just assuming that if someone had a choice quote that made them look prescient that it means they are instantly better than the alternative that didn't make sense in the moment but through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses looks like a great idea. But we know you have reason to dislike him for that quote, LL. So really you're doing your usual thing of trying to muddy the water to come out with "aha! See I told you Russia didn't directly work with the president to undermine our democracy! They just happened to coincidentally do it while also not being involved!" | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/964615346983489536 Maybe it's just typical Greenwald talking points, but some skepticism to temper the enthusiasm is nice I guess? Though this is a fairly extraordinary speed the probe is taking according to Five-Thirty-Eight, Several former AGs have said the investigation is moving far faster than they expected. But also the investigation is unique and its hard line it up with other investigations. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:07 hunts wrote: But we know you have reason to dislike him for that quote, LL. So really you're doing your usual thing of trying to muddy the water to come out with "aha! See I told you Russia didn't directly work with the president to undermine our democracy! They just happened to coincidentally do it while also not being involved!" That's more projection than reality because that's not at all how I interpret things. I don't dislike Romney at all - and seriously, how many US politicians are there who don't say something hostile with respect to Russia sooner or later? I didn't vote for him because I didn't think he was a better choice than Obama, but he did seem like a reasonable Republican at the time. In context, though - I remember how hilariously fucked up his FP tour was. He managed to piss off London, cause a stir in Israel, then went to pole land and also had random shit go down there. But hey - if you want Romney as president, then why didn't you vote for him back then? Is it because you actually did and Obama was just a mistake to you? Or is it because some quote looks really clever in hindsight and the circumstances that led to Trump are something you wish didn't occur? Indeed, your commentary seems quite a bit more like putting words in my mouth than anything I actually said. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:15 LegalLord wrote: That's more projection than reality because that's not at all how I interpret things. I don't dislike Romney at all - and seriously, how many US politicians are there who don't say something hostile with respect to Russia sooner or later? I didn't vote for him because I didn't think he was a better choice than Obama, but he did seem like a reasonable Republican at the time. In context, though - I remember how hilariously fucked up his FP tour was. He managed to piss off London, cause a stir in Israel, then went to pole land and also had random shit go down there. But hey - if you want Romney as president, then why didn't you vote for him back then? Is it because you actually did and Obama was just a mistake to you? Or is it because some quote looks really clever in hindsight and the circumstances that led to Trump are something you wish didn't occur? Indeed, your commentary seems quite a bit more like putting words in my mouth than anything I actually said. Nah romney was pretty awful and Obama was decent. I would take romney over trump any day though, but I would also take a literal bag of cow shit over trump. I do think romney was one of the last pseudo-reasonable republicans, in that he was just bad but not an absolute stain on humanity level bad like trump and every republican currently serving. | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
On February 17 2018 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/964615346983489536 Maybe it's just typical Greenwald talking points, but some skepticism to temper the enthusiasm is nice I guess? Though this is a fairly extraordinary speed the probe is taking according to Five-Thirty-Eight, There is no federal statute specifying "the crime of colluding with Russia." Collusion is not a legal term. The fact that indictments are not verdicts is true of every prosecution. Given the quality of the lawyers on Mueller's team (seriously, they are amazing) and the ample public evidence of shady contacts with Russian officials ("this is part of Russia and its governments support for Mr. Trump"), I find it very difficult to believe that the people who have been indicted are going to get off. It's worth remembering that the only people indicted so far are Manafort, Gates, the Internet Research Agency, and a bunch of Russians. Manafort's indictment lays out very specifically the alleged money laundering. There have been numerous reports in the media of Manafort's seriously dodgy finances. Manafort was fired as campaign head due to all the scrutiny on his dealings in Ukraine. He's being prosecuted by the guy who took down Enron. Realistically, there is no chance that Manafort walks free. Gates is in the same boat as Manafort, since he worked with Manafort for years. Plus, Gates recently got dumped by all his lawyers in a bizarre legal spectacle. Reportedly, Gates is close to a plea deal with Mueller. (See https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/rick-gates-plea-deal-mueller-russia-investigation/index.html) The illegal activities of the Internet Research Agency have been well documented by major media. Prosecutors will have a lot more information than media outlets did, since prosecutors have subpoena power and can compel testimony. There's no way the IRA gets a good verdict. I don't know much about the 13 Russian individuals, beyond the fact that they are linked somehow to IRA. It's a safe bet that Mueller and his team are not just charging random people with crimes they can't prove. Everyone else (Flynn, Papadopolous) has pleaded guilty, which means they already have their verdict, and it sucks. | ||
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Herpin_Along
15 Posts
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:08 Plansix wrote: Several former AGs have said the investigation is moving far faster than they expected. But also the investigation is unique and its hard line it up with other investigations. When you compare this to special counsel investigations of the past (Patrick Fitzgerald investigating Bush, Ken Lay investigating Clinton), there is obviously a much more concerted effort being done here. Mostly because this isn't "special interest" or a single real-estate deal. It's something a large part of the DoJ and national security has to be involved with, and the need for results is more than political. In regards to Romney's recognition of Russia's antagonism to the world -- he said that relatively before the defacto Ukraine invasion and annexation of Crimea. Was he right? Maybe. But things are worse now. There were a lot of people pointing at Putin's brazen tyranny. I miss that we don't have Christopher Hitchens right now. He knew exactly who Putin was, and would never pass an opportunity to say so. + Show Spoiler + Russian relations with most of the West are dead until Putin is gone, not just with the U.S. Poland and Hungary are in flux, and Germany always has to be weary. But further west than that, relations are stone dead. Trump can't do anything about that, nor should he. LegalLord and other Russians should take a strong reassessment to how they want to engage Western relations when Russia finally finds itself under another's rule, if they want to actually be anything more than an antagonist. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:23 Herpin_Along wrote: I must say that I do remember that. I now sincerely regret jumping on the bandwagon mocking him for that, he was apparently absolutely correct in his assessment and Obama was just flat out wrong. I think the left kind of needs to assume a collective "yeah, my bad" on that one. To be fair I do suspect Obama also regrets that comment now as well. That is a bipartisan fuck up. Both party’s leadership wanted a “reset” with Russian relations and thought they could make nice with Putin. It didn’t work. | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:23 Herpin_Along wrote: I must say that I do remember that. I now sincerely regret jumping on the bandwagon mocking him for that, he was apparently absolutely correct in his assessment and Obama was just flat out wrong. I think the left kind of needs to assume a collective "yeah, my bad" on that one. To be fair I do suspect Obama also regrets that comment now as well. I recall Obama being hailed as a debating genius for that "zinger." What a joke. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On February 17 2018 05:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Trump calling Russia a bad actor seems novel? Will he change his stance on 'all our intelligence agencies are wrong, because I asked Putin and he said no it didn't happen and Putin would never lie'? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:23 Herpin_Along wrote: I must say that I do remember that. I now sincerely regret jumping on the bandwagon mocking him for that, he was apparently absolutely correct in his assessment and Obama was just flat out wrong. I think the left kind of needs to assume a collective "yeah, my bad" on that one. To be fair I do suspect Obama also regrets that comment now as well. only those on the left who agreed with it would have grounds to be part of a collective mea culpa, and i'm sure there's some who didn't. of course in terms of collective mea culpae (not sure on ending) the right has an awful lot to do; and I rather doubt they will. such admissions are rare in general. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 17 2018 07:19 hunts wrote: Nah romney was pretty awful and Obama was decent. I would take romney over trump any day though, but I would also take a literal bag of cow shit over trump. I do think romney was one of the last pseudo-reasonable republicans, in that he was just bad but not an absolute stain on humanity level bad like trump and every republican currently serving. Ok, cool. Trump is a pretty gutter-tier president, I'm sure no one would really object to that characterization (even his supporters are disappointed at best). Makes you really wish that people listened to Romney in 2012 so he'd be in charge right now though, huh? He was right about Russia and about Israel and about all those other things (as shown by a few choice quotes that were ridiculed pretty hard, but perhaps overly so), and that makes you think that not listening to him back then was a mistake. I mean, bitch please. Introvert seems like he would have at least actually voted for the guy. If you didn't and you wouldn't have, saying "I wish it were Romney right now" is really rich. | ||
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