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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 959

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
March 28 2014 14:15 GMT
#19161
Lets not get it twisted, the vast majority of most country's wealth comes from exploitation of natural resources. The USA is no exception to this (we only started exploiting those fresh juicy resources in the last couple hundred years) but Norway is not a good example of workload redistribution in a modern economy. 60% of Norway's exports are petroleum and its workers are among the most productive in Europe who have the benefit of one of the best safety nets the state has to offer.

US employers will never move to 30 hour work weeks because they will have to hire more workers to complete the same amount of work. This cuts into the bottom line and is therefore bad business practice. This is one of the reasons the Obama administration recently changed the overtime rules for salaried employees; companies were overworking their current salaried staff instead of hiring new people to complete extra work.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28790 Posts
March 28 2014 14:45 GMT
#19162
On March 28 2014 22:47 Dapper_Cad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 21:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On March 28 2014 19:49 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?
I'd like to see the regime that redistributes the workload without disastrous side effects and failure in its primary mission. Short of some hitherto undiscovered method, I just see increasing unemployment and decreasing opportunity for the new generations. The growth in the economy is one way, maybe even the primary way, to combat this problem in a free society.


I'm not gonna make the claim that Norway is "there" yet, but we have certainly moved in this direction and without disasterous side effects.. We're working shorter and shorter weeks, taking fridays(or mondays) off to enjoy a 3 day weekend is becoming more and more common. There's some political effort made, although not sufficient to break through yet, to reduce working days from 7.5 hours to 6 hours (and thus the average working week from 37.5 to 30).

Now yes we have a unique oil wealth and what works for Norway might not work elsewhere, but my personal preference is that for halted economic growth in exchange for more spare time. I'd much rather maintain my current wealth and work less than work more and become wealthier.


It's not just that Norway has oil it's that Norway does relatively sensible things with the money received.

Britain also had oil. We pissed the money up the wall and now we work more hours than [edit:almost] anyone in Europe.


Thats actually what I meant by unique oil wealth haha. many countries have had similar natural resources but almost none have managed to utilize the wealth wisely. large natural resources have often been a curse rather than a blessing.
Moderator
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6272 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-28 15:06:53
March 28 2014 15:02 GMT
#19163
On March 28 2014 23:15 TheFish7 wrote:
Lets not get it twisted, the vast majority of most country's wealth comes from exploitation of natural resources. The USA is no exception to this (we only started exploiting those fresh juicy resources in the last couple hundred years) but Norway is not a good example of workload redistribution in a modern economy. 60% of Norway's exports are petroleum and its workers are among the most productive in Europe who have the benefit of one of the best safety nets the state has to offer.

US employers will never move to 30 hour work weeks because they will have to hire more workers to complete the same amount of work. This cuts into the bottom line and is therefore bad business practice. This is one of the reasons the Obama administration recently changed the overtime rules for salaried employees; companies were overworking their current salaried staff instead of hiring new people to complete extra work.

Not just petroleum, also things like fish and wood. Norway has a lot of natural resources to work with.

edit: The Netherlands had a lot of gas and we used it all on silly socialist projects and now we've wasted most of it. Resources should be invested in stuff like infrastructure and education that's the best way to spend money that's only available for a limited amount of time imo.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 28 2014 15:59 GMT
#19164
WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration talks a lot about the need to develop renewable energy around the world to curb climate change. But right now, it's trying to kill India's effort to boost its domestic solar industry.

The U.S. wants India to back off a policy that would require local sourcing for solar energy technology, and has sought World Trade Organization enforcement action. Representatives from the two nations reportedly met last week to try to settle the trade battle over India's rapidly developing solar industry, but reached no resolution.

U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman said in February that India's rules for locally made products for its solar power program "discriminate against U.S. exports" and break WTO rules. "We are determined to stand up for U.S. workers and businesses," he said.

The U.S. and India have 60 days from last month's announcement of the enforcement action -- until April 11 -- to resolve the conflict before it goes to the WTO, which can impose sanctions. Last month, India indicated it would block WTO investigations into its trade policies, according to Reuters.

The dispute centers on the second phase of India's solar power policy, known as the Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission. PV Magazine described the rules in an article in October, noting that they require that half the solar components come from domestic sources.

The U.S. objected to domestic sourcing requirements for the first phase of India's program, leading to WTO consultations in February 2013. Phase II, however, expands domestic sourcing requirements to include thin film solar technologies, which the U.S. exports to India.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ArTiFaKs
Profile Joined September 2013
United States1229 Posts
March 28 2014 16:03 GMT
#19165
So you guys might have already discussed this already, but what do you guys think about the CIA hacking the computers of the Intelligence Committee? Diane Feinstein was pretty adamant that the NSA surveillance wasn't anything to worry about (which is bullshit she is just getting tons of money from that sector and nothing had happened directly to her yet so she had no reason to give a shit) but she is making a lot of noise about this. Now there's all these congressmen and women calling for reform and Obama to act in some way, only for Obama to say "This isn't something I want to get involved in" or some bullshit cop out like that. In my opinion, Obama is EXACTLY the guy who needs to get involved in this shit, he's tried extremely hard to stay out of the way on this Snowden/NSA stuff and is now completely ignoring the CIA/Feinstein shit as well. When is this guy going to take a stand? And when are the American people actually going to give a fuck enough to protest/speak up about all the bullshit going on?

I think it's already been established that having all this money and resources thrown into surveillance/security to "protect" us from "terrorists" is just bullshit. You have a bigger chance of dying in your sleep from suffocation than getting killed by a terrorist or a terrorist attack.
There are things known, and things unknown, and in-between are the doors.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 28 2014 16:12 GMT
#19166
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) now acknowledges talking with former Port Authority of New York and New Jersey executive David Wildstein at an event in September. But he doesn't recall what they talked about.

In an interview with ABC News on Thursday, Christie addressed an assertion made by Wildstein, the official who orchestrated the George Washington Bridge lane closures, that he spoke to the governor about about the traffic situation on the bridge while the closures were in effect. The revelation was included in a report released Thursday by a legal team representing Christie's office. Christie has long maintained that he knew nothing of the plan to close the lanes, and the report found that Christie "did not know of the lane realignment beforehand and had no involvement in the decision to realign the lanes."

During the ABC News interview, anchor Diane Sawyer asked Christie if Wildstein had in fact talked to him about traffic on Sept. 11.

"I don't have any recollection of that, Diane," Christie said. "David was one of hundreds of people that I spoke to that day. We stood around and spoke briefly that day."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 28 2014 18:00 GMT
#19167
Attorney General Eric Holder on Friday extended federal recognition to the marriages of about 300 same-sex couples that took place in Michigan before an appeals court put such unions on hold.

His action extends eligibility for federal benefits to the Michigan couples who married Saturday, which means they may file federal taxes jointly, get Social Security benefits for spouses and request legal immigration status for partners, among other benefits.

Holder's decision came a week after U.S. District Judge Bernard Friedman in Detroit struck down the gay marriage ban.

The attorney general said the families should not be asked to endure uncertainty regarding their benefits while courts decide the issue of same-sex marriage in Michigan.

"The governor of Michigan has made clear that the marriages that took place on Saturday were lawful and valid when entered into, although Michigan will not extend state rights and benefits tied to these marriages, pending further legal proceedings," Holder said in a statement Friday.

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder, a Republican, acknowledged Wednesday that same-sex couples "had a legal marriage." But because of the court's stay, he added, the gay marriage ban has been restored. That closed the door, at least for now, to certain state benefits reserved for married couples.

Holder did the same thing in Utah, where more than 1,000 same-sex couples got married before the U.S. Supreme Court put those unions on hold in January.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 28 2014 18:12 GMT
#19168
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 28 2014 18:17 GMT
#19169
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.

If I'm not mistaken France has set 35 hours of work per week as a legal maximum with the goal to distribute labour more evenly. Doesn't seem very complicated to me.
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12084 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-28 18:21:32
March 28 2014 18:20 GMT
#19170
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.


I think working less but more years is going to be a theme in the next decades. A lot of countries face problems with finding jobs for its people. A quick fix is shortening work hours, requiring more people to fill the same total hours. That is (from what I know) cheaper for the state than having them on social benefit programs. The risk with a portion working and another portion being supported by that is that it easily creates conflict, something that most societies don't want.

Another option is of course to have one stay at home person in each relationship. Which would run the risk of moving equal rights for genders towards its previous state.
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
March 28 2014 18:31 GMT
#19171
My buddy working 60-80 hours a week is definitely working out for him. If you can get away with it, working 20 hours a week is fine too. Government shouldn't dictate minimums or maximums, leave that to the business and employees.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 28 2014 18:36 GMT
#19172
On March 29 2014 03:17 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.

If I'm not mistaken France has set 35 hours of work per week as a legal maximum with the goal to distribute labour more evenly. Doesn't seem very complicated to me.

A one off lowering is a bit different and there are also exceptions to the 35 hour workweek to make it more workable. I don't think you'll find that France has had zero issues with implementation either.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 28 2014 18:49 GMT
#19173
On March 29 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2014 03:17 Nyxisto wrote:
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.

If I'm not mistaken France has set 35 hours of work per week as a legal maximum with the goal to distribute labour more evenly. Doesn't seem very complicated to me.

A one off lowering is a bit different and there are also exceptions to the 35 hour workweek to make it more workable. I don't think you'll find that France has had zero issues with implementation either.

Well that's a pretty meaningless sentence. There's never zero issues with any policy. The point being is that distributing work more evenly isn't exactly rocket science.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22307 Posts
March 28 2014 18:52 GMT
#19174
On March 29 2014 03:31 Wolfstan wrote:
My buddy working 60-80 hours a week is definitely working out for him. If you can get away with it, working 20 hours a week is fine too. Government shouldn't dictate minimums or maximums, leave that to the business and employees.

Because businesses have shown to take care of people so well when left to there own devices...
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 28 2014 18:53 GMT
#19175
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/03/27/cursed_with_nation_s_second_highest_turnout_rate_wisconsin_restricts_early.html
This is fucked up yo
Gov. Scott Walker has quietly signed into law a bill that limits in-person absentee voting to no later than 7 p.m. during the week and no weekend hours. Walker vetoed a portion of the bill Thursday that limited the hours of early voting to no more than 45 in each of the two weeks prior to an election. He kept the prohibition on weekend voting.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 28 2014 18:55 GMT
#19176
On March 29 2014 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 29 2014 03:17 Nyxisto wrote:
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.

If I'm not mistaken France has set 35 hours of work per week as a legal maximum with the goal to distribute labour more evenly. Doesn't seem very complicated to me.

A one off lowering is a bit different and there are also exceptions to the 35 hour workweek to make it more workable. I don't think you'll find that France has had zero issues with implementation either.

Well that's a pretty meaningless sentence. There's never zero issues with any policy. The point being is that distributing work more evenly isn't exactly rocket science.

Never said it was rocket science. Passing a bill to lower the workweek is just starts the process of distributing work more evenly btw.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 28 2014 20:32 GMT
#19177
WASHINGTON -- New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) announced Friday that David Samson, the chairman of the Port Authority and a close ally, was resigning in the wake of the Bridgegate scandal.

"David tendered his resignation to me this afternoon, effective immediately," said Christie during an afternoon press conference in Trenton, N.J. "I want to thank him for his service and his friendship."

Christie's press conference -- his first in more than two months -- comes a day after the publication of a report that concluded the governor was not involved in the Bridgegate scandal, which shut down two of Fort Lee, N.J.'s access lanes to the George Washington Bridge from Sept. 9 to the morning of Sept. 12.

The investigation that produced the report, however, was conducted by Gibson Dunn, a law firm hired by Christie. The report also provided an incomplete picture of the events that took place, since the three individuals at the center of the controversy -- former Port Authority employee David Wildstein, former Christie deputy chief of staff Bridget Kelly and former top adviser Bill Stepien -- all refused to cooperate and give their versions of what happened.

Questions about the extent of Samson's involvement continue to swirl, with emails showing that he was more concerned about leaks to the media than the effects the lane closures were having on commuters. Federal prosecutors have also sought records on how Samson's law firm has profited from construction projects paid for by New Jersey taxpayers.

Christie, however, did not seem concerned about impropriety on Samson's part. He said he hadn't seen any "facts" showing a conflict of interest between Samson's Port Authority work and his private lobbying. Christie noted that he asked Samson last year to stay on at the Port Authority through his reelection campaign.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 28 2014 20:40 GMT
#19178
On March 29 2014 03:20 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.


I think working less but more years is going to be a theme in the next decades. A lot of countries face problems with finding jobs for its people. A quick fix is shortening work hours, requiring more people to fill the same total hours. That is (from what I know) cheaper for the state than having them on social benefit programs. The risk with a portion working and another portion being supported by that is that it easily creates conflict, something that most societies don't want.

Another option is of course to have one stay at home person in each relationship. Which would run the risk of moving equal rights for genders towards its previous state.

Like the German fellow above you pointed out, France has had a mandated 35 hour work week. All it seems to do in France is discourage French businesses from hiring any full time workers and instead creates a parallel employment market where on one hand you have people in secure jobs forever and on the other hand the vast hordes of part time workers.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
March 28 2014 20:52 GMT
#19179
Sheesh I hit 35 hours by Wednesday most weeks
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-28 20:59:29
March 28 2014 20:56 GMT
#19180
On March 29 2014 05:40 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2014 03:20 Yurie wrote:
On March 29 2014 03:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 28 2014 16:53 IgnE wrote:
On March 28 2014 15:52 Danglars wrote:
On March 28 2014 11:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
What's the point of growing the economy? So you have more money to buy more stuff. Most people want that, which doesn't always mean more consumerism. More stuff can be more education, scientific exploration, more art, more healthcare...

I think what also deserves mention is the creation of jobs for an expanding population. New starter jobs, new jobs for college grads, etc.


If the current number of people and jobs could provide for an expanded population without increasing jobs, why wouldn't we just distribute the work more evenly so that everybody works less?

You'd have to have a widespread consensus that working less is the priority. It would also be much more difficult to put in practice than just theorizing it, of course.


I think working less but more years is going to be a theme in the next decades. A lot of countries face problems with finding jobs for its people. A quick fix is shortening work hours, requiring more people to fill the same total hours. That is (from what I know) cheaper for the state than having them on social benefit programs. The risk with a portion working and another portion being supported by that is that it easily creates conflict, something that most societies don't want.

Another option is of course to have one stay at home person in each relationship. Which would run the risk of moving equal rights for genders towards its previous state.

Like the German fellow above you pointed out, France has had a mandated 35 hour work week. All it seems to do in France is discourage French businesses from hiring any full time workers and instead creates a parallel employment market where on one hand you have people in secure jobs forever and on the other hand the vast hordes of part time workers.

Or you could name another bazillion reasons for that. Here in Germany we have a similar situation. Not through federal law but through collective bargaining.

[image loading]

Looking at these numbers I see little correlation between hours worked and unemployment.Your almighty god of deregulation might not be pleased. Many countries that have strong labour regulations in place do not suffer from high unemployment.
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