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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
I mean, there's currently a religious extremist group in the U.S. that protests at funerals saying "God hates fags." If they held political power gays wouldn't be much better off than in a Muslim theocracy. When do we start kicking them out and arguing they are conducting a war on Western culture?
I mean, a man almost just won a Senate race saying he doesn't think Muslims should be in the Senate for Christ's sake.
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On December 15 2017 00:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Didn't we have Christian fundies attacking abortion clinics and the like just a few years ago?
Yes the fact is that many people don't wish to acknowledge in this country is that they are more in danger of Christian Terrorist attacks than Islamic ones, however low they both are.
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On December 15 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:36 Plansix wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. This from a guy who constantly whines about his post being mischaracterized and being labeled as a racist. This post is repugnant. Sorry if the facts about Muslim countries in the Middle East terrify you. I don't want to assume what he believes. He thinks fining and public flogging is a useful departure from outright killing. It's just not something I hear very often.
I am far more concerned with the casual racism you dump all over this thread and then run from like a coward when challenged.
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I feel like pointing out that there are still people alive from when the US had laws against consensual anal sex (regardless of gender) is something that people need to be reminded of. I mean some of the laws are still on the books but the Supreme Court invalidated them in ~2003. Though the military was still trying to persecute people for consensual sodomy afterwards (unsuccessfully).
We're also yet to a woman leader in the US, and some people might have missed it but there's this thing going around where it's coming to light that basically every woman is getting harassed, most are getting groped, and something between 10% and 15% of women are getting raped at some point in their life.
Granted we only fund an arm with billions of dollars of weapons countries like Saudi Arabia who has been known to punish rape victims the idea that we're completely incomparable seems naive.
While I imagine every country lies about the frequency of rape, and each country has it's own cultural pressures surrounding reporting, according to the statistics we keep, we're not even doing that well among countries that likely maintain more honest/accurate records.
I'll say clearly, we are not Saudi Arabia when it comes to treatment of women or the LGBTQ communities, but we do support them with money and bombs. Which would be enough to get you rico'd if they were two domestic entities.
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On December 15 2017 01:01 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:47 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:38 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:25 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. You are expecting these things to sort them selves out progress and develop? In a matter of decades when ya'll still cant handle gay people yourselves? Especially when the existing power structures broker it with assistance or by pointing at the American boogieman who does little or nothing to absolve itself of actually being worth pointing to. Give me a fucking break. I'd give you a lesson on how the secular elements of many middle eastern and subontinental countries got wrecked with the assistance of foreign actors and allowed conservatism and shitty idealogies to fester either through reaction or power consolidation. People went to the disco and hung out in bell bottoms dancing to night fever in the 70s where I am from. in 30 years that was all turned to shit due to dictators using religion as a tool on an entire generation designed to fight Russians and that generation went and fucked shit up even more. There is plenty of fault within developing nations themselves. But dont fucking pretend like this is all their own doing and it should just "fix itself". So quickly we loop back around to justifying Muslim country treatment of gays and women to the West not being so much better. One quick mention of "existing power structures," and Muslims are practically justified in public floggings! You're just digging yourself a bigger hole pointing to other societies that turned more authoritarian to try to make a comparison to Muslim societies in the Middle East that stay very backward and mistreat women and gays. If the best you can do is "there is plenty of fault," then you are a Muslim apologist. We literally made Muslims behave this way in their countries by being a boogieman! Patently ridiculous. I am not justifying anything. Holy fuck. Where is any of this a juistification The Saudi's are the scum of the universe. I am saying that progressing through this shit takes time and takes generational shifts in opinions. Most places are trying to take get their shit together (Iran and Saudi are exceptions because you fucked Iran so hard they will take a century to recover). But other places are trying to take their countries back from the elements that would do these things. None of this behavior has any real basis in religion anyway. (Like that 70 virgins crap) But that is a lesson that would be wasted on you. These are young nations that had no idea how to deal with this shit. Its fucking hard, especially when it wasnt something that patently existed till ya'll got involved. So yeah shits fucked up. And there are state level actors that benefit from that fucked up shit. But developing countries will develop. However they have too. What you need to worry about is that after 400 years, you still kill more people with guns than we do. You're the one responding to a post about how it's religious-oriented and not just a developing country thing, so you tell me. There's a certain kind of person that looks at criticism of Muslim ideology and authoritarian rule in the Middle East, and points out how the West are cruel and at fault for not letting this countries naturally develop. Same kind of person that points out that the US kills more people with guns. If I had seen similar levels of Christian theologians using the book to justify treatment, I'd call it out ( even if the 70 virgins crap isn't textually supported). Here, you tiptoe around the societies without calling out their conservative interpretations of their book (theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran, Wahhabism in SA). I don't give much allowance to unbiased rational insight, if you go down the justification shotgun list of "Nothing to do with Islam" one through ten.
Partly at fault, I literally just called the Saudi's the scum of the universe. What other calling out of their conservative interpretation would you like me to offer? So much for tiptoeing.
My saying that the behavior is not driven primarily by religion is not a justification of the fucking behavior itself. How asinine can you get. I mean wow...
I can see why people struggle debating anything with you. You just talk past the talking point and talk about what you want to talk about. After this I am done.
I will break it down so you cannot conflate and mischaractirize shit. You will find a way to do it but I will try. On the issue we are discussing i.e womens rights and LGBQT
Saudi Arabia = bad the afore mentioned scum of the universe. This applies to their ideology, the royal family their politics. Everything. Also known as Americas best friend and also receives more hard cash to do this shit than the rest of the Muslim world combined.
Iran = bad but with room for improvement (and shot 50 years back in said development)
other Muslim countries =varying degrees of bad, all grappling with the issue and trying to develop. All our barely 5 decades old in their current forms and are also struggling with their post colonial issues. Once the post colonial issues come to a better place irrespective of what Islam says (just like the Christian Bible says). Those condition's will improve
America - 400 years still grope women in the workplace, date rape, and restrict rights to LGBQT
The issue I was trying to illustrate with the American example was not a justification of whats happening now. It was to explain that despite having so much time to develope your treatment of these people is far far from perfect so you shouldnt expect the more backward societies to just "get on your level" Just like that.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise.
Man, that's some really special form of apologism going on right here. Kind of reminds me of the time you were defending why Pakistan supported Osama bin Laden for years while the US was looking for him. A blanket justification of shitty behavior if I've ever seen one.
On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
As do many other people here and they arent Muslims.
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand,
Well the irony is not lost on me.
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On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it.
Most Muslim countries are undeveloped or have developed VERY recently.
But in regards to the Koran being against homosexuality, you are absolutely correct. However, all religious texts have been used to justify or condemn literally everything, including homosexuality so I cancel the Koran out for the most part. I'd actually say that a bigger reason for homophobia is the US and Israel being pro-gay rights which gives a shit ton of fuel to anti-Western conservatives.
But yes, those countries I listed are more "Westernized" (I prefer globalized) and from my personal experience, the rationale for supporting social liberty is not so much out of "We should be more like the West if we want to advance" but rather young people growing up in the age of the Internet, growing up in a liberal democracy, and many young people exploring the world. Plus, television is a big factor too.
In regards to the comparisons to Christian extremism, I agree. The Westboro Baptist Church is very harmless for the most part whereas Islamic fundamentalists have literally killed thousands of people. The only thing that is similar is the thought process.
In regards to right-wing terror in the US, I would attribute the motivation much more to nationalism more so than Christianity. Lots of people on the far-right go so far to reject Christianity. Their rhetoric is certainly not religiously motivated.
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On December 15 2017 01:18 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise. Man, that's some really special form of apologism going on right here. Kind of reminds me of the time you were defending why Pakistan supported Osama bin Laden for years while the US was looking for him. A blanket justification of shitty behavior if I've ever seen one. Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
As do many other people here and they arent Muslims. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand, Well the irony is not lost on me.
its not apologism (is that even a word?) thats an explanation of why. You can draw your own conclusions on those people. I dont know any of them and I dont associate with them myself.
So I am not sure how you can conflate that with my defending of the Bin Laden thing. I dont recall the Bin Laden Conversation although I think my position on the subject would be relatively consistent. I doubt you do. You simply just regurgitated an idea you kept in your head. Typical.
Its difficult to pretend there is any irony involved but if thats what Comrade ordered then god speed to you.
The frustrating aspect is that you enforce your shitty opinions with little to no observations or experience with these societies.
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On December 15 2017 01:19 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it. Most Muslim countries are undeveloped or have developed VERY recently. But in regards to the Koran being against homosexuality, you are absolutely correct. However, all religious texts have been used to justify or condemn literally everything, including homosexuality so I cancel the Koran out for the most part. I'd actually say that a bigger reason for homophobia is the US and Israel being pro-gay rights which gives a shit ton of fuel to anti-Western conservatives. But yes, those countries I listed are more "Westernized" (I prefer globalized) and from my personal experience, the rationale for supporting social liberty is not so much out of "We should be more like the West if we want to advance" but rather young people growing up in the age of the Internet, growing up in a liberal democracy, and many young people exploring the world. Plus, television is a big factor too. In regards to the comparisons to Christian extremism, I agree. The Westboro Baptist Church is very harmless for the most part whereas Islamic fundamentalists have literally killed thousands of people. The only thing that is similar is the thought process. In regards to right-wing terror in the US, I would attribute the motivation much more to nationalism more so than Christianity. Lots of people on the far-right go so far to reject Christianity. Their rhetoric is certainly not religiously motivated.
Do you not think that anti-imperialism and nationalism are two different strands of the same thread? I think you are being slightly overly reductionist - I think it would be hard look at the IRA, for example, and choose one of nationalism, anti-imperialism, and Catholicism as the primary motivator for their terror attacks.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 15 2017 01:22 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:18 LegalLord wrote:On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise. Man, that's some really special form of apologism going on right here. Kind of reminds me of the time you were defending why Pakistan supported Osama bin Laden for years while the US was looking for him. A blanket justification of shitty behavior if I've ever seen one. On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
As do many other people here and they arent Muslims. What the hell does that have to do with anything? On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand, Well the irony is not lost on me. its not apologism (is that even a word?) thats an explanation of why. You can draw your own conclusions on those people. I dont know any of them and I dont associate with them myself. So I am not sure how you can conflate that with my defending of the Bin Laden thing. I dont recall the Bin Laden Conversation although I think my position on the subject would be relatively consistent. I doubt you do. You simply just regurgitated an idea you kept in your head. Typical. Its difficult to pretend there is any irony involved Comrade.
Yeah, looks like this is deflection and grudge-weaving rather than any serious discussion. You're very blatantly being an apologist for shitty behavior and trying to justify it with an aggressive attitude towards anyone who sees it otherwise. I see no point in continuing.
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On December 15 2017 01:25 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:22 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 01:18 LegalLord wrote:On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise. Man, that's some really special form of apologism going on right here. Kind of reminds me of the time you were defending why Pakistan supported Osama bin Laden for years while the US was looking for him. A blanket justification of shitty behavior if I've ever seen one. On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
As do many other people here and they arent Muslims. What the hell does that have to do with anything? On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand, Well the irony is not lost on me. its not apologism (is that even a word?) thats an explanation of why. You can draw your own conclusions on those people. I dont know any of them and I dont associate with them myself. So I am not sure how you can conflate that with my defending of the Bin Laden thing. I dont recall the Bin Laden Conversation although I think my position on the subject would be relatively consistent. I doubt you do. You simply just regurgitated an idea you kept in your head. Typical. Its difficult to pretend there is any irony involved Comrade. Yeah, looks like this is deflection and grudge-weaving rather than any serious discussion. You're very blatantly being an apologist for shitty behavior and trying to justify it with an aggressive attitude towards anyone who sees it otherwise. I see no point in continuing.
You can accuse of me that if it makes you feel better. I am not sure who I should be grudge weaving towards and what I am deflecting from. I live here and I love it, but that doesnt mean you cant call a spade a spade.
What exactly was aggressive about my comments to you specifically upto now? Genuinely curious.
edit: O right the Putin shill thing. Didnt realise that would upset you. My bad,
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On December 15 2017 01:24 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:19 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it. Most Muslim countries are undeveloped or have developed VERY recently. But in regards to the Koran being against homosexuality, you are absolutely correct. However, all religious texts have been used to justify or condemn literally everything, including homosexuality so I cancel the Koran out for the most part. I'd actually say that a bigger reason for homophobia is the US and Israel being pro-gay rights which gives a shit ton of fuel to anti-Western conservatives. But yes, those countries I listed are more "Westernized" (I prefer globalized) and from my personal experience, the rationale for supporting social liberty is not so much out of "We should be more like the West if we want to advance" but rather young people growing up in the age of the Internet, growing up in a liberal democracy, and many young people exploring the world. Plus, television is a big factor too. In regards to the comparisons to Christian extremism, I agree. The Westboro Baptist Church is very harmless for the most part whereas Islamic fundamentalists have literally killed thousands of people. The only thing that is similar is the thought process. In regards to right-wing terror in the US, I would attribute the motivation much more to nationalism more so than Christianity. Lots of people on the far-right go so far to reject Christianity. Their rhetoric is certainly not religiously motivated. Do you not think that anti-imperialism and nationalism are two different strands of the same thread? I think you are being slightly overly reductionist - I think it would be hard look at the IRA, for example, and choose one of nationalism, anti-imperialism, and Catholicism as the primary motivator for their terror attacks.
The reason I leave out Christianity for the most part in right-wing terror is because most of the right-wing terrorists do not pick up a Bible or even read Christian Identity or fundamentalist texts and decide to become a guerrilla. Some branches of the KKK will emphasize protection of Christian America, but surprisingly from what I know about them, they talk more about white identity. People like William L Pierce, Timothy McVeigh, and iirc, Jared Taylor are all agnostics. When they write about their politics, they write about the decline of the West, creeping multiculturalism, Jews, race mixing, bankrupt global capitalism, and scientific racism.
In regards to the IRA, I would not even say Catholicism was a that big of a factor. I heard more about Marx and Lenin and Irish identity rather than a dispute between Lutheranism and the Pope
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though...
Not super in depth but I've known him for 7 years and if he's a secret extremist he's hid it well.
That's funny though, it made me realize how few of my close friends I've ever really discussed politics with. Before the recent election here in Korea earlier this year, that # was even lower.
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Bravo.
I am 35 years old—the oldest millennial, the first millennial—and for a decade now, I’ve been waiting for adulthood to kick in. My rent consumes nearly half my income, I haven’t had a steady job since Pluto was a planet and my savings are dwindling faster than the ice caps the baby boomers melted.
We’ve all heard the statistics. More millennials live with their parents than with roommates. We are delaying partner-marrying and house-buying and kid-having for longer than any previous generation. And, according to The Olds, our problems are all our fault: We got the wrong degree. We spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need. We still haven’t learned to code. We killed cereal and department stores and golf and napkins and lunch. Mention “millennial” to anyone over 40 and the word “entitlement” will come back at you within seconds, our own intergenerational game of Marco Polo.
This is what it feels like to be young now. Not only are we screwed, but we have to listen to lectures about our laziness and our participation trophies from the people who screwed us.
But generalizations about millennials, like those about any other arbitrarily defined group of 75 million people, fall apart under the slightest scrutiny. Contrary to the cliché, the vast majority of millennials did not go to college, do not work as baristas and cannot lean on their parents for help. Every stereotype of our generation applies only to the tiniest, richest, whitest sliver of young people. And the circumstances we live in are more dire than most people realize.
What is different about us as individuals compared to previous generations is minor. What is different about the world around us is profound. Salaries have stagnated and entire sectors have cratered. At the same time, the cost of every prerequisite of a secure existence—education, housing and health care—has inflated into the stratosphere. From job security to the social safety net, all the structures that insulate us from ruin are eroding. And the opportunities leading to a middle-class life—the ones that boomers lucked into—are being lifted out of our reach. Add it all up and it’s no surprise that we’re the first generation in modern history to end up poorer than our parents.
This is why the touchstone experience of millennials, the thing that truly defines us, is not helicopter parenting or unpaid internships or Pokémon Go. It is uncertainty. “Some days I breathe and it feels like something is about to burst out of my chest,” says Jimmi Matsinger. “I’m 25 and I’m still in the same place I was when I earned minimum wage.” Four days a week she works at a dental office, Fridays she nannies, weekends she babysits. And still she couldn’t keep up with her rent, car lease and student loans. Earlier this year she had to borrow money to file for bankruptcy. I heard the same walls-closing-in anxiety from millennials around the country and across the income scale, from cashiers in Detroit to nurses in Seattle.
It’s tempting to look at the recession as the cause of all this, the Great Fuckening from which we are still waiting to recover. But what we are living through now, and what the recession merely accelerated, is a historic convergence of economic maladies, many of them decades in the making. Decision by decision, the economy has turned into a young people-screwing machine. And unless something changes, our calamity is going to become America’s.
Source
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On December 15 2017 01:35 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:24 kollin wrote:On December 15 2017 01:19 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it. Most Muslim countries are undeveloped or have developed VERY recently. But in regards to the Koran being against homosexuality, you are absolutely correct. However, all religious texts have been used to justify or condemn literally everything, including homosexuality so I cancel the Koran out for the most part. I'd actually say that a bigger reason for homophobia is the US and Israel being pro-gay rights which gives a shit ton of fuel to anti-Western conservatives. But yes, those countries I listed are more "Westernized" (I prefer globalized) and from my personal experience, the rationale for supporting social liberty is not so much out of "We should be more like the West if we want to advance" but rather young people growing up in the age of the Internet, growing up in a liberal democracy, and many young people exploring the world. Plus, television is a big factor too. In regards to the comparisons to Christian extremism, I agree. The Westboro Baptist Church is very harmless for the most part whereas Islamic fundamentalists have literally killed thousands of people. The only thing that is similar is the thought process. In regards to right-wing terror in the US, I would attribute the motivation much more to nationalism more so than Christianity. Lots of people on the far-right go so far to reject Christianity. Their rhetoric is certainly not religiously motivated. Do you not think that anti-imperialism and nationalism are two different strands of the same thread? I think you are being slightly overly reductionist - I think it would be hard look at the IRA, for example, and choose one of nationalism, anti-imperialism, and Catholicism as the primary motivator for their terror attacks. The reason I leave out Christianity for the most part in right-wing terror is because most of the right-wing terrorists do not pick up a Bible or even read Christian Identity or fundamentalist texts and decide to become a guerrilla. Some branches of the KKK will emphasize protection of Christian America, but surprisingly from what I know about them, they talk more about white identity. People like William L Pierce, Timothy McVeigh, and iirc, Jared Taylor are all agnostics. When they write about their politics, they write about the decline of the West, creeping multiculturalism, Jews, race mixing, bankrupt global capitalism, and scientific racism. In regards to the IRA, I would not even say Catholicism was a that big of a factor. I heard more about Marx and Lenin and Irish identity rather than a dispute between Lutheranism and the Pope
My broader point was that it's reductive to say some terrorism is religion, some nationalism etc. I don't think any Islamic terrorism could be pinned down to one of the two for example.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 15 2017 01:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Not super in depth but I've known him for 7 years and if he's a secret extremist he's hid it well. That's funny though, it made me realize how few of my close friends I've ever really discussed politics with. Before the recent election here in Korea earlier this year, that # was even lower.
I don't generally talk politics with my friends either, since it's usually a good way to get into a fight if you don't handle it with care. Though sometimes you get curious and there's no harm in a few questions if you're not a dick about it. I've definitely been asked my thoughts on Crimea and the like before, for example.
They're not secret extremists, it's more so that if you ask the right questions you will start to understand what a "moderate" actually looks like and why an "extremist" isn't really that much of a deviation from the norm. Personally the biggest surprise to me was how passionately some Palestinians I knew would defend Yasser Arafat and stand by that "driving Israel into the sea" was what really mattered, and that all these negotiations were just a false front and a means to that end. And it wasn't really isolated incidents; it was surprisingly universal. It starts to become clear that someone a bit more passionate than average could very well turn to extremism under that belief set and with a bit of direct encouragement from a terror group.
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On December 15 2017 01:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Bravo. Show nested quote +I am 35 years old—the oldest millennial, the first millennial—and for a decade now, I’ve been waiting for adulthood to kick in. My rent consumes nearly half my income, I haven’t had a steady job since Pluto was a planet and my savings are dwindling faster than the ice caps the baby boomers melted.
We’ve all heard the statistics. More millennials live with their parents than with roommates. We are delaying partner-marrying and house-buying and kid-having for longer than any previous generation. And, according to The Olds, our problems are all our fault: We got the wrong degree. We spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need. We still haven’t learned to code. We killed cereal and department stores and golf and napkins and lunch. Mention “millennial” to anyone over 40 and the word “entitlement” will come back at you within seconds, our own intergenerational game of Marco Polo.
This is what it feels like to be young now. Not only are we screwed, but we have to listen to lectures about our laziness and our participation trophies from the people who screwed us.
But generalizations about millennials, like those about any other arbitrarily defined group of 75 million people, fall apart under the slightest scrutiny. Contrary to the cliché, the vast majority of millennials did not go to college, do not work as baristas and cannot lean on their parents for help. Every stereotype of our generation applies only to the tiniest, richest, whitest sliver of young people. And the circumstances we live in are more dire than most people realize.
What is different about us as individuals compared to previous generations is minor. What is different about the world around us is profound. Salaries have stagnated and entire sectors have cratered. At the same time, the cost of every prerequisite of a secure existence—education, housing and health care—has inflated into the stratosphere. From job security to the social safety net, all the structures that insulate us from ruin are eroding. And the opportunities leading to a middle-class life—the ones that boomers lucked into—are being lifted out of our reach. Add it all up and it’s no surprise that we’re the first generation in modern history to end up poorer than our parents.
This is why the touchstone experience of millennials, the thing that truly defines us, is not helicopter parenting or unpaid internships or Pokémon Go. It is uncertainty. “Some days I breathe and it feels like something is about to burst out of my chest,” says Jimmi Matsinger. “I’m 25 and I’m still in the same place I was when I earned minimum wage.” Four days a week she works at a dental office, Fridays she nannies, weekends she babysits. And still she couldn’t keep up with her rent, car lease and student loans. Earlier this year she had to borrow money to file for bankruptcy. I heard the same walls-closing-in anxiety from millennials around the country and across the income scale, from cashiers in Detroit to nurses in Seattle.
It’s tempting to look at the recession as the cause of all this, the Great Fuckening from which we are still waiting to recover. But what we are living through now, and what the recession merely accelerated, is a historic convergence of economic maladies, many of them decades in the making. Decision by decision, the economy has turned into a young people-screwing machine. And unless something changes, our calamity is going to become America’s. Source
I agree that stories like these- of hardworking young people who are stuck with dead end jobs or dead end degrees or mountains of well-intentioned debt and barely being able to skate by month after month without being able to seriously save money for a better tomorrow- are all too common with the Millennial generation.
Now, how do we- as a society- fix this? I would assume that a good number of people disagree with the very premise of my question- that the community is under no obligation to help out those who are in need (i.e., let them pick themselves up by their bootstraps), but many of us wish to help. What are some steps we can take if we're actually interested in addressing this problem and trying to help our fellow American citizens?
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On December 15 2017 01:25 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:22 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 01:18 LegalLord wrote:On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though... Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise. Man, that's some really special form of apologism going on right here. Kind of reminds me of the time you were defending why Pakistan supported Osama bin Laden for years while the US was looking for him. A blanket justification of shitty behavior if I've ever seen one. On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
As do many other people here and they arent Muslims. What the hell does that have to do with anything? On December 15 2017 00:54 Rebs wrote:
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand, Well the irony is not lost on me. its not apologism (is that even a word?) thats an explanation of why. You can draw your own conclusions on those people. I dont know any of them and I dont associate with them myself. So I am not sure how you can conflate that with my defending of the Bin Laden thing. I dont recall the Bin Laden Conversation although I think my position on the subject would be relatively consistent. I doubt you do. You simply just regurgitated an idea you kept in your head. Typical. Its difficult to pretend there is any irony involved Comrade. Yeah, looks like this is deflection and grudge-weaving rather than any serious discussion. You're very blatantly being an apologist for shitty behavior and trying to justify it with an aggressive attitude towards anyone who sees it otherwise. I see no point in continuing.
You use the exact same apologist rhetoric when talking about why Trump got elected and why Democrats are incompetent at elections.
You've been doing it for over a year.
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On December 15 2017 01:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 01:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Bravo. I am 35 years old—the oldest millennial, the first millennial—and for a decade now, I’ve been waiting for adulthood to kick in. My rent consumes nearly half my income, I haven’t had a steady job since Pluto was a planet and my savings are dwindling faster than the ice caps the baby boomers melted.
We’ve all heard the statistics. More millennials live with their parents than with roommates. We are delaying partner-marrying and house-buying and kid-having for longer than any previous generation. And, according to The Olds, our problems are all our fault: We got the wrong degree. We spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need. We still haven’t learned to code. We killed cereal and department stores and golf and napkins and lunch. Mention “millennial” to anyone over 40 and the word “entitlement” will come back at you within seconds, our own intergenerational game of Marco Polo.
This is what it feels like to be young now. Not only are we screwed, but we have to listen to lectures about our laziness and our participation trophies from the people who screwed us.
But generalizations about millennials, like those about any other arbitrarily defined group of 75 million people, fall apart under the slightest scrutiny. Contrary to the cliché, the vast majority of millennials did not go to college, do not work as baristas and cannot lean on their parents for help. Every stereotype of our generation applies only to the tiniest, richest, whitest sliver of young people. And the circumstances we live in are more dire than most people realize.
What is different about us as individuals compared to previous generations is minor. What is different about the world around us is profound. Salaries have stagnated and entire sectors have cratered. At the same time, the cost of every prerequisite of a secure existence—education, housing and health care—has inflated into the stratosphere. From job security to the social safety net, all the structures that insulate us from ruin are eroding. And the opportunities leading to a middle-class life—the ones that boomers lucked into—are being lifted out of our reach. Add it all up and it’s no surprise that we’re the first generation in modern history to end up poorer than our parents.
This is why the touchstone experience of millennials, the thing that truly defines us, is not helicopter parenting or unpaid internships or Pokémon Go. It is uncertainty. “Some days I breathe and it feels like something is about to burst out of my chest,” says Jimmi Matsinger. “I’m 25 and I’m still in the same place I was when I earned minimum wage.” Four days a week she works at a dental office, Fridays she nannies, weekends she babysits. And still she couldn’t keep up with her rent, car lease and student loans. Earlier this year she had to borrow money to file for bankruptcy. I heard the same walls-closing-in anxiety from millennials around the country and across the income scale, from cashiers in Detroit to nurses in Seattle.
It’s tempting to look at the recession as the cause of all this, the Great Fuckening from which we are still waiting to recover. But what we are living through now, and what the recession merely accelerated, is a historic convergence of economic maladies, many of them decades in the making. Decision by decision, the economy has turned into a young people-screwing machine. And unless something changes, our calamity is going to become America’s. Source I agree that stories like these- of hardworking young people who are stuck with dead end jobs or dead end degrees or mountains of well-intentioned debt and barely being able to skate by month after month without being able to seriously save money for a better tomorrow- are all too common with the Millennial generation. Now, how do we- as a society- fix this? I would assume that a good number of people disagree with the very premise of my question- that the community is under no obligation to help out those who are in need (i.e., let them pick themselves up by their bootstraps), but many of us wish to help. What are some steps we can take if we're actually interested in addressing this problem and trying to help our fellow American citizens?
create more affordable housing.
loosening the zoning requirements to allow for it to be created at actually market affordable rates.
improve financial literacy education in school.
i'm sure I could come up with more stuff if you're actually seriously looking; but that's what I know offhand.
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EPT
