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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 14 2017 23:46 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that ideas and the discussions that implicate them do not exist in a vacuum, they are made known via complicated webs of speaker associations, contextual iterations, and circumstance-beholden meaning. This is why supposedly defensible thinkers that do practically nothing to discourage bigot-fan-relators, like Jordan Peterson or Majid Nawaz, deserve the scorn that comes their way.
Jordan Peterson, I understand.
However, with Majid Nawaz, I think he is important because in the Muslim community, there are so many customs that for the most part are largely unchallenged. Lots of European Muslims call themselves moderate Muslims but still hold some conservative values that even European Christians do not uphold. Is it wrong that the liberal branch of Muslims in Europe want to challenge this mindset? Opposing traditional values that progressively minded people take issue with is something that should be backed by liberals. And Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as much as I dislike her, she talks and acts like someone from /r/atheism but if she was Christian, she would be accepted by liberals. I find it hilarious that the only people willing to take her in are right-wingers.
The problem with these discussions is that we seem to categorize certain communities as a whole rather than different factions and views within a community and as a result, we fear a coming apart of multicultural values. It is not racist or empowering bigots if liberals back liberal Muslims and hold the conservative Muslims with contempt. And conservative leaders will respond with the most idiotic talking points and statements such as that critics are Islamphobic, hate Islam, and are against their way of life, but that is what all religious conservatives do when having their values questioned.
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We have heard from Swedish citizens in this thread on that subject and you are mischaracterizing the refugees coming to that nation.
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On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~
One of my best friends in college was Muslim. Basically the same. He did party harder than just about anyone I know while being completely sober, which was quite remarkable.
Oh, you're living somewhere else? You're clearly polluting the culture and society of wherever you are. /s
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Come on Kickboxer, surely you can recognise that different people can have different life experiences and opinions?
I'm not sure what you are getting at really.
But actually what you just wrote is chillingly similar to what some people wrote about Britian. Overrun by self-alienating, underqualified and hateful young men, or claiming it's a model multicultural heaven. Except change the focus from muslims to eastern europeans. Which one do you think is more likely to be true?
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On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back at ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you.
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Just a tip: hard to take someone seriously when they spell "you" with "ya". Then spells it properly later anyways.
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On December 15 2017 00:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Come on Kickboxer, surely you can recognise that different people can have different life experiences and opinions?
I'm not sure what you are getting at really.
That there is no objective assessment of what's going on. Not even within the country itself, which reeks of politics tbh. I honestly don't know which truth to believe since I would like to be right.
Seeing as the "experiment" could have civilization-altering consequences, getting some reliable results would be pretty cool since Sweden is the perfect model for this discourse. Super advanced country with lots of immigrants.
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On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you.
To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part.
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On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you.
If you let terrorism force you to abandon your principles and values, you're a coward. I also believe there are quite a few Christian communities in Africa (Uganda comes to mind) that you could turn to for the killing of gays and raping of women. It is almost as if the issue is vastly more complex than Muslims = bad
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Well, there's a certain disconnect when most of the Swedes here living in Sweden are giving one story, that there are difficulties but not in the way you perceive and your perception that Sweden is in a quantum state. So, at some point you got to think which is more likely to be true? That the Swedes you know here are just giving misinformation, or whatever your otherwordly source is giving you misinformation, or a different possibility?
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"Today, we no longer recognize the universal truth that God is the author of our life and liberty"
Whaaat? Can danglars or xdaunt or msbiology tell me what this means?
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On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part.
Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general.
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On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general.
Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing
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The dude is a Christian nationalist. He is the US version of the fundamentalist Muslim people are railing against in this thread. Have no doubt, Moore would support lynching gays if he could get away with it. And the dude got close to 50% of the vote.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:57 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ One of my best friends in college was Muslim. Basically the same. He did party harder than just about anyone I know while being completely sober, which was quite remarkable. Oh, you're living somewhere else? You're clearly polluting the culture and society of wherever you are. /s
I've gotta admit I feel a little bit of a responsibility to be a 'good representative' with how few foreigners there are in Korea overall.
Although in the last few years, ever since subway station opened up near by, I think there's a lot more of them (... more of us, technically, I guess, but it feels like 'them' because I've been here so long and don't know any of them haha) right by where I live.
On December 15 2017 00:10 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, there's a certain disconnect when most of the Swedes here living in Sweden are giving one story, that there are difficulties but not in the way you perceive and your perception that Sweden is in a quantum state. So, at some point you got to think which is more likely to be true? That the Swedes you know here are just giving misinformation, or whatever your otherwordly source is giving you misinformation, or a different possibility?
To be fair, the subset of Swedes who post on TL are probably, along with the rest of the site, somewhat more likely to lean left. I'm sure if he asked somewhere with a different skew he could get different answers (and I know there's been at least a couple of posters like that even on here from Sweden).
And as someone no longer living there, it was honestly quite hard (last time I tried) to find anything inbetween "EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE" and "Things are exactly the same as they were 30 years ago, we have 0 problems".
When I visit once a year for a few weeks, I can't say I feel particularly unsafe walking around but I don't visit the most exciting places in the world either, so who knows.
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On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing
We used to tar and feather people like 200 years ago. Some of the founding fathers lead the mobs. But we lionize them and didn't label the entire US culture a violent mob. But some tribal killings happen in the Middle East and the entire Muslim religion must be held responsible.
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On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general.
You are expecting these things to sort them selves out progress and develop? In a matter of decades when ya'll still cant handle gay people yourselves? Especially when the existing power structures broker it with assistance or by pointing at the American boogieman who does little or nothing to absolve itself of actually being worth pointing to.
Give me a fucking break. I'd give you a lesson on how the secular elements of many middle eastern and subontinental countries got wrecked with the assistance of foreign actors and allowed conservatism and shitty idealogies to fester either through reaction or power consolidation.
People went to the disco and hung out in bell bottoms dancing to night fever in the 70s where I am from. in 30 years that was all turned to shit due to dictators using religion as a tool on an entire generation designed to fight Russians and that generation went and fucked shit up even more.
There is plenty of fault within developing nations themselves. But dont fucking pretend like this is all their own doing and it should just "fix itself".
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