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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 14 2017 23:52 Kickboxer wrote:
Sweden appears to be a quantum state of some sorts. I'm very confused by people (including the Swedes themselves) either claiming it's being overrun by self-alienating, underqualified and hateful young men, or claiming it's a model multicultural heaven. These two opinions shouldn't really be able to coexist and if nothing else point at shenanigans.
Yes. I only know one Swedish expatriot in my community, and it's all bad from her point of view. She's definitely in the overrun camp and talks about relatives describing certain zones where it used to be safe for her to walk at night and now everyone knows to stay away. Obviously anecdotal, but there you have it.
On December 15 2017 00:09 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. If you let terrorism force you to abandon your principles and values, you're a coward. I also believe there are quite a few Christian communities in Africa (Uganda comes to mind) that you could turn to for the killing of gays and raping of women. It is almost as if the issue is vastly more complex than Muslims = bad
Clearly, the other view is random acts of terrorism with "Allahu Akbar" is not worth mention. One hint for you: Don't be a coward when you try to persuade people off your perceived cowardice.
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On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing
Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here.
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On December 15 2017 00:30 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:52 Kickboxer wrote:
Sweden appears to be a quantum state of some sorts. I'm very confused by people (including the Swedes themselves) either claiming it's being overrun by self-alienating, underqualified and hateful young men, or claiming it's a model multicultural heaven. These two opinions shouldn't really be able to coexist and if nothing else point at shenanigans. Yes. I only know one Swedish expatriot in my community, and it's all bad from her point of view. She's definitely in the overrun camp and talks about relatives describing certain zones where it used to be safe for her to walk at night and now everyone knows to stay away. Obviously anecdotal, but there you have it. Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:09 kollin wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. If you let terrorism force you to abandon your principles and values, you're a coward. I also believe there are quite a few Christian communities in Africa (Uganda comes to mind) that you could turn to for the killing of gays and raping of women. It is almost as if the issue is vastly more complex than Muslims = bad Clearly, the other view is random acts of terrorism with "Allahu Akbar" is not worth mention. One hint for you: Don't be a coward when you try to persuade people off your perceived cowardice.
I didn't say it's not worth mentioning - I think terrorism is a political problem, with political solutions that the US could implement without abandoning the principles it was supposedly founded on. Those who want to abandon those principles are cowards, and nothing more.
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On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here.
This from a guy who constantly whines about his post being mischaracterized and being labeled as a racist. This post is repugnant.
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On December 15 2017 00:25 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. You are expecting these things to sort them selves out progress and develop? In a matter of decades when ya'll still cant handle gay people yourselves? Especially when the existing power structures broker it with assistance or by pointing at the American boogieman who does little or nothing to absolve itself of actually being worth pointing to. Give me a fucking break. I'd give you a lesson on how the secular elements of many middle eastern and subontinental countries got wrecked with the assistance of foreign actors and allowed conservatism and shitty idealogies to fester either through reaction or power consolidation. People went to the disco and hung out in bell bottoms dancing to night fever in the 70s where I am from. in 30 years that was all turned to shit due to dictators using religion as a tool on an entire generation designed to fight Russians and that generation went and fucked shit up even more. There is plenty of fault within developing nations themselves. But dont fucking pretend like this is all their own doing and it should just "fix itself".
So quickly we loop back around to justifying Muslim country treatment of gays and women to the West not being so much better. One quick mention of "existing power structures," and Muslims are practically justified in public floggings!
You're just digging yourself a bigger hole pointing to other societies that turned more authoritarian to try to make a comparison to Muslim societies in the Middle East that stay very backward and mistreat women and gays. If the best you can do is "there is plenty of fault," then you are a Muslim apologist. We literally made Muslims behave this way in their countries by being a boogieman! Patently ridiculous.
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All this talk of Muslims assimilating and im just like "So you mean like Dearborn, Mi?" There are a lot of Muslims in the Detroit metro area and the only racket I ever heard is when that one crazy pastor who burned korans held a protest in front of the Mosque there since its the largest one in NA.
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On December 14 2017 23:00 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 22:52 Plansix wrote:
All mosques are factories for intolerant fundamentalists. Got it. Any religious institution tends to be an establishment of social conservatism, mosques included.
this seems doubtful; there's a lot of different denominations in the US; and I know there's some very liberal ones out there.
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On December 15 2017 00:34 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:30 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:52 Kickboxer wrote:
Sweden appears to be a quantum state of some sorts. I'm very confused by people (including the Swedes themselves) either claiming it's being overrun by self-alienating, underqualified and hateful young men, or claiming it's a model multicultural heaven. These two opinions shouldn't really be able to coexist and if nothing else point at shenanigans. Yes. I only know one Swedish expatriot in my community, and it's all bad from her point of view. She's definitely in the overrun camp and talks about relatives describing certain zones where it used to be safe for her to walk at night and now everyone knows to stay away. Obviously anecdotal, but there you have it. On December 15 2017 00:09 kollin wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. If you let terrorism force you to abandon your principles and values, you're a coward. I also believe there are quite a few Christian communities in Africa (Uganda comes to mind) that you could turn to for the killing of gays and raping of women. It is almost as if the issue is vastly more complex than Muslims = bad Clearly, the other view is random acts of terrorism with "Allahu Akbar" is not worth mention. One hint for you: Don't be a coward when you try to persuade people off your perceived cowardice. I didn't say it's not worth mentioning - I think terrorism is a political problem, with political solutions that the US could implement without abandoning the principles it was supposedly founded on. Those who want to abandon those principles are cowards, and nothing more.
I'm glad you understand why I think your position is cowardly. I'll give you a call when it's a radical Baptist sect self-detonating in New York. I'll look for your purely political characterization and solutions.
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On December 15 2017 00:39 Slaughter wrote:
All this talk of Muslims assimilating and im just like "So you mean like Dearborn, Mi?" There are a lot of Muslims in the Detroit metro area and the only racket I ever heard is when that one crazy pastor who burned korans held a protest in front of the Mosque there since its the largest one in NA.
We have reasonable community in the Boston area and have for decades. Its never been a problem, even at the height of 9/11 anti-terror bullshit.
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On December 15 2017 00:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. This from a guy who constantly whines about his post being mischaracterized and being labeled as a racist. This post is repugnant.
Sorry if the facts about Muslim countries in the Middle East terrify you.
I don't want to assume what he believes. He thinks fining and public flogging is a useful departure from outright killing. It's just not something I hear very often.
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On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here.
It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity.
But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating.
But in regards to my personal beliefs, I will say that two evils are still evil, but they can still be very different and often times, the level of backward practices can be correlated with societal development. That does not mean however that highly advanced societies will naturally fix itself of backward practices.
On December 15 2017 00:40 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:00 Shiragaku wrote:On December 14 2017 22:52 Plansix wrote:
All mosques are factories for intolerant fundamentalists. Got it. Any religious institution tends to be an establishment of social conservatism, mosques included. this seems doubtful; there's a lot of different denominations in the US; and I know there's some very liberal ones out there.
Tends, not is. I am well aware of reformed secular Jews and all the liberal Christian organizations in the West and even a Christian left in Latin America and even liberal Muslim sects in Europe and Malaysia and Turkey, but most religious institutions are religiously conservative.
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On December 15 2017 00:38 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:25 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. You are expecting these things to sort them selves out progress and develop? In a matter of decades when ya'll still cant handle gay people yourselves? Especially when the existing power structures broker it with assistance or by pointing at the American boogieman who does little or nothing to absolve itself of actually being worth pointing to. Give me a fucking break. I'd give you a lesson on how the secular elements of many middle eastern and subontinental countries got wrecked with the assistance of foreign actors and allowed conservatism and shitty idealogies to fester either through reaction or power consolidation. People went to the disco and hung out in bell bottoms dancing to night fever in the 70s where I am from. in 30 years that was all turned to shit due to dictators using religion as a tool on an entire generation designed to fight Russians and that generation went and fucked shit up even more. There is plenty of fault within developing nations themselves. But dont fucking pretend like this is all their own doing and it should just "fix itself". So quickly we loop back around to justifying Muslim country treatment of gays and women to the West not being so much better. One quick mention of "existing power structures," and Muslims are practically justified in public floggings! You're just digging yourself a bigger hole pointing to other societies that turned more authoritarian to try to make a comparison to Muslim societies in the Middle East that stay very backward and mistreat women and gays. If the best you can do is "there is plenty of fault," then you are a Muslim apologist. We literally made Muslims behave this way in their countries by being a boogieman! Patently ridiculous.
I am not justifying anything. Holy fuck. Where is any of this a juistification
The Saudi's are the scum of the universe. I am saying that progressing through this shit takes time and takes generational shifts in opinions. Most places are trying to take get their shit together (Iran and Saudi are exceptions because you fucked Iran so hard they will take a century to recover). But other places are trying to take their countries back from the elements that would do these things.
None of this behavior has any real basis in religion anyway. (Like that 70 virgins crap) But that is a lesson that would be wasted on you.
These are young nations that had no idea how to deal with this shit. Its fucking hard, especially when it wasnt something that patently existed till ya'll got involved.
So yeah shits fucked up. And there are state level actors that benefit from that fucked up shit. But developing countries will develop. However they have too.
What you need to worry about is that after 400 years, you still kill more people with guns than we do.
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On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~
Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians.
Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though...
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On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating.
I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it.
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On December 15 2017 00:51 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 23:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I lived with a muslim for a number of years. He didn't eat non-halal meat and didn't drink. Other than that, absolutely 0 difference from living with a similarly relaxed christian.....
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE.
I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ Have you ever tried asking him about his political beliefs? In my personal experience they come off as generally personable people, but if you really try to get to the bottom of where they stand on the issues of terrorism and social issues, you might walk away with some set of responses that makes you say, holy shit. I get that vibe from a broad range of Muslims I've been friends with, although none more so than Palestinians. Beyond that... yeah, they're mostly nice people. Only other thing I've noticed is the way they tend to treat women would generally be frowned upon in Western cultures, but it's not quite what I'd call abuse. It is important to remember that "moderates" pave the way for extremists though...
Lots of peoples have reactionary beliefs that they hold due to an idea that ends/means are either justified by the level of persecution (the what choice do they have argument" or thats what they have been taught to believe. its not right, but this should give you an idea of where its coming from. Things ingrained are hard to accept as otherwise.
Then again, half the time I read your comments I come out saying "holy shit" aswell. As do many other people here and they arent Muslims.
I normally prefer to just observe but sometimes the ignorance is palpably impossible to stand,
On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it.
What does the Quran say that the Christian Bible doesn't say about homo sexuality.? It literalyl just ctrl x'ed the passages on homosexuality out of it lol.
Again you keep bringing up the idea that I am pointing to Christian societies as a defense. I am not. I am simply admonishing them for being as shit as they are after having had all this time to develop.
Most nation states that are primarily Muslim are post colonial and still young. They have had their liberalism squeezed out of them by the events I described (again Saudi is an exception, the Wahabis were never liberal and they are now the dominant force. Thanks petro dollars). It takes time to things back.
FYI in my City back home, there are pretty open gay people. Always have been. These laws and societal actions are a symptom of poor nations that have been overtaken by corrupt elements more so than they are of any religious behavior. The laws are applied selectively on the weak and the destitute and its terrible. I have seen and experienced things that would make your sanitized ass shitself. But if thats what we have to go through to move past it then thats the hand you are dealt. But its a bit fresh to expect things to just "develop"
There are plenty of Majority Christian countries whos treatment of women and home sexuals is just as bad.
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On December 15 2017 00:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:34 kollin wrote:On December 15 2017 00:30 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:52 Kickboxer wrote:
Sweden appears to be a quantum state of some sorts. I'm very confused by people (including the Swedes themselves) either claiming it's being overrun by self-alienating, underqualified and hateful young men, or claiming it's a model multicultural heaven. These two opinions shouldn't really be able to coexist and if nothing else point at shenanigans. Yes. I only know one Swedish expatriot in my community, and it's all bad from her point of view. She's definitely in the overrun camp and talks about relatives describing certain zones where it used to be safe for her to walk at night and now everyone knows to stay away. Obviously anecdotal, but there you have it. On December 15 2017 00:09 kollin wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. If you let terrorism force you to abandon your principles and values, you're a coward. I also believe there are quite a few Christian communities in Africa (Uganda comes to mind) that you could turn to for the killing of gays and raping of women. It is almost as if the issue is vastly more complex than Muslims = bad Clearly, the other view is random acts of terrorism with "Allahu Akbar" is not worth mention. One hint for you: Don't be a coward when you try to persuade people off your perceived cowardice. I didn't say it's not worth mentioning - I think terrorism is a political problem, with political solutions that the US could implement without abandoning the principles it was supposedly founded on. Those who want to abandon those principles are cowards, and nothing more. I'm glad you understand why I think your position is cowardly. I'll give you a call when it's a radical Baptist sect self-detonating in New York. I'll look for your purely political characterization and solutions.
Well it's not my characterisation technically, but that of a former counterterrorist officer in MI5. I'm sure your sophisticated conception of both modern day terror, and the role religion (both Christian and Muslim) plays in developing countries is founded on more solid ground than his experience.
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On December 15 2017 00:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:44 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:22 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. Criminalizing=/=Tribal village killing Sorry, open flogging, fining, lifetime imprisonment, death, and torture. I know you're hedging with narrowing out the killing, but one step removed and these developed Muslim societies really see parallels in religious hegemony and treatment of gays and women. They "only" criminalize the behavior, backed up by state violence. Clearly something you support from Muslim communities? I try not to assume what you believe, there's a lot of cultural relativists here. It varies country to country. Homosexuality in places like Lebanon, Malaysia, and Turkey is very different from Iran and to places like Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I would not go so far to say that Islam is naturally homophobic given that I have met and talked to enough Muslims around the world to know that attitudes towards homosexuality is very complicated, but in places like Iran and Egypt, being gay is miserable, but you can still live your life for the most part if you practice caution. In Pakistan and Yemen on the other hand, its tribal insanity. But yeah, I do not mean to split hairs, but even in Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death or Malaysia where homosexuality is a criminal act, at least gays can somewhat integrate compared to other nations. I am not defending Islam in this regard or homophobia, just stating. I'm with you as far as you say you do not defend Islam by pointing out the forms oppression takes towards gays across society. It's fair to say they're mistreated. I cannot join with you in excusing Islam knowing what the Koran says about homosexuality and how their fundamentalist leaders use that to justify the treatment. You have a minority of Muslim-dominant countries that are moderate on the issue. These are the most Westernized, generally speaking. The rest give you cause to hide, because the law and society are against them. I think that is a useful distinction of that religion, compared to others that will permit a secular society and legal protections to minority religious views. I also think that you're too forgiving of people that draw bad parallels to Christian societies (BUT THEY PROTEST ABORTION OMG) to defend countries in the Middle East. If you can recognize that this is on another level, and relatively advanced Muslim countries still legally criminalize gays and deny many legal protections to women, then I'll applaud it.
The Bible is literally just as derogatory about homosexuality, and - unsurprisingly - there are Christian majority nations that treat women and gay people just as badly as majority Muslim ones. Point to any two African nations and you're fairly likely to find one Christian nation, and one Muslim nation, who both treat minorities similarly. It is so obviously not just a religious problem, and you are too blinded by ideology to admit that.
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Didn't we have Christian fundies attacking abortion clinics and the like just a few years ago?
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On December 15 2017 00:47 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:38 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:25 Rebs wrote:On December 15 2017 00:20 Danglars wrote:On December 15 2017 00:09 Shiragaku wrote:On December 15 2017 00:05 Danglars wrote:On December 14 2017 23:27 Artesimo wrote:
I occasionally read this thread out of curiosity and sometimes for amusement. The last few pages haven’t been amusing at all though, the posts that clearly scream racist are seriously worrying while managing to antagonise the poster to me. I am not the one to scream racist that soon but either some need to seriously rephrase what they are saying and give it more nuance, or they are so mind-bogglingly ignorant and dishonest that it mildly upsets me just reading their shit.
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it.
Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value.
With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies.
I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it.
And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning
You had me going until you likened Muslim treatment of women to the protesting of abortion. Ditto right back ya for narrow minded defensive reactions. I wonder why you even affect to understand problems with conservative Muslims when you show so plainly you excuse them because you hate and fear Christians as well. Get back to me when the subway bomber is just as likely to be a Methodist as a Muslim practitioner. Let me know when killing gays and raping women is treated similarly in Christian communities as Muslim communities. You’re probably right in your projection ... you make clear there’s no having a discussion with you. To be fair, killing gays and mass rapes are more common in developing Muslim countries where that behavior seems to happen in most undeveloped nations regardless of religious identity. Muslim communities in the West are above that for the most part. Most Muslim countries make it criminal, and countries like Iran are hardly developing. It sticks a little more in Yemen or Iran or Saudi Arabia and begs the question if the “developing” status is encouraged by Muslim society in general. You are expecting these things to sort them selves out progress and develop? In a matter of decades when ya'll still cant handle gay people yourselves? Especially when the existing power structures broker it with assistance or by pointing at the American boogieman who does little or nothing to absolve itself of actually being worth pointing to. Give me a fucking break. I'd give you a lesson on how the secular elements of many middle eastern and subontinental countries got wrecked with the assistance of foreign actors and allowed conservatism and shitty idealogies to fester either through reaction or power consolidation. People went to the disco and hung out in bell bottoms dancing to night fever in the 70s where I am from. in 30 years that was all turned to shit due to dictators using religion as a tool on an entire generation designed to fight Russians and that generation went and fucked shit up even more. There is plenty of fault within developing nations themselves. But dont fucking pretend like this is all their own doing and it should just "fix itself". So quickly we loop back around to justifying Muslim country treatment of gays and women to the West not being so much better. One quick mention of "existing power structures," and Muslims are practically justified in public floggings! You're just digging yourself a bigger hole pointing to other societies that turned more authoritarian to try to make a comparison to Muslim societies in the Middle East that stay very backward and mistreat women and gays. If the best you can do is "there is plenty of fault," then you are a Muslim apologist. We literally made Muslims behave this way in their countries by being a boogieman! Patently ridiculous. I am not justifying anything. Holy fuck. Where is any of this a juistification The Saudi's are the scum of the universe. I am saying that progressing through this shit takes time and takes generational shifts in opinions. Most places are trying to take get their shit together (Iran and Saudi are exceptions because you fucked Iran so hard they will take a century to recover). But other places are trying to take their countries back from the elements that would do these things. None of this behavior has any real basis in religion anyway. (Like that 70 virgins crap) But that is a lesson that would be wasted on you. These are young nations that had no idea how to deal with this shit. Its fucking hard, especially when it wasnt something that patently existed till ya'll got involved. So yeah shits fucked up. And there are state level actors that benefit from that fucked up shit. But developing countries will develop. However they have too. What you need to worry about is that after 400 years, you still kill more people with guns than we do.
You're the one responding to a post about how it's religious-oriented and not just a developing country thing, so you tell me. There's a certain kind of person that looks at criticism of Muslim ideology and authoritarian rule in the Middle East, and points out how the West are cruel and at fault for not letting this countries naturally develop. Same kind of person that points out that the US kills more people with guns. If I had seen similar levels of Christian theologians using the book to justify treatment, I'd call it out (even if the 70 virgins crap isn't textually supported). Here, you tiptoe around the societies without calling out their conservative interpretations of their book (theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran, Wahhabism in SA). I don't give much allowance to unbiased rational insight, if you go down the justification shotgun list of "Nothing to do with Islam" one through ten.
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