EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9526
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 22:52 Plansix wrote: All mosques are factories for intolerant fundamentalists. Got it. Any religious institution tends to be an establishment of social conservatism, mosques included. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
So I don't see why that couldn't become the norm? It's gonna be a rougher transition when it's someone who just came to the west from a literal WAR ZONE. I would rather focus energies on how to make the integration better than try to kick out the people who are already here (as far as I know, doors are already relatively closed for the moment)... or I would, if I wasn't halfway across the world living as an immigrant ~_~ | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:00 Shiragaku wrote: Any religious institution tends to be an establishment of social conservatism, mosques included. Social conservatism is a healthy and needed component of a pluralistic society. However, that's clearly not relevant to kickboxer's islamaphobia or Plansix's ridicule thereof. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:05 farvacola wrote: Social conservatism is a healthy and needed component of a pluralistic society. However, that's clearly not relevant to kickboxer's islamaphobia or Plansix's ridicule thereof. But I wish more liberals were open to criticism of the Islamic conservatism the same way we are of Christian conservatives. I mean, are we going to let only people like Majid Nawaz, Irshad Manji, and Kenan Malik be the only critics of social conservatism from non-Western backgrounds? A lot of Muslim communities have a lot in common with Southern Baptists and some are even comparable to Mormon communities but the only people that bring this up are usually right-wingers who have some pretty deranged ideas about what to do with them. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:15 Shiragaku wrote: But I wish more liberals were open to criticism of the Islamic conservatism the same way we are of Christian conservatives. I mean, are we going to let only people like Majid Nawaz, Irshad Manji, and Kenan Malik be the only critics of social conservatism from non-Western backgrounds? A lot of Muslim communities have a lot in common with Southern Baptists and some are even comparable to Mormon communities but the only people that bring this up are usually right-wingers who have some pretty deranged ideas about what to do with them. As a fairly staunch defender of religiosity in general, I think this point makes sense. However, when superimposed overtop blatant "THE ENTIRE RELIGION IS ANTI-WEST," it stops being a good point as it tacitly encourages the opinions of folks who obviously have no fucking clue what they're talking about aside from blind fear of the Other. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:20 farvacola wrote: As a fairly staunch defender of religiosity in general, I think this point makes sense. However, when superimposed overtop blatant "THE ENTIRE RELIGION IS ANTI-WEST," it stops being a good point as it tacitly encourages the opinions of folks who obviously have no fucking clue what they're talking about aside from blind fear of the Other. Of course, Sam Harris fedoras and right-wing populists will always spew the same idiotic talking points, but I don't see a reason to jump to the defense of social conservative values of minority groups simply because they are being Otherised by demagogues. By not doing so, liberals are losing their reputation of being the defenders of secular values and are allowing populists to instead uphold secular Enlightenment values. Has it not occurred that Geert Wilders saying "Amsterdam is the gay capital of the world" is hilariously outrageous and strange? Habermas said that the future of politics is going to be between multiculturalists vs secularists and if that is so, then oh my God is the future of news and discourse going to be miserable and facepalmy. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Artesimo
Germany546 Posts
I seriously admire the people in here that keep on engaging in discussion with them, especially when it comes to reoccurring posters. I can make out some of them by just reading their post, even when I run in through google translator the constant dishonesty, rephrasing and avoiding of arguments is still present. The worst of it is, when those people are so hostile towards a group they have nothing really to fear from. I could understand such narrow minded defence reactions coming from someone that’s actually under a direct threat but otherwise? This is especially true when it comes to islamophobia. No, there isn’t any scary bearded guy that’s coming to get to and whenever I hear an American railing on how they want to oppress women while protesting against abortion and failing to see the irony makes my eyes bleed. Also only Islam is a breeding pool for conservatism and fuck the gays because god said so and that’s what we always did. Not to forget how they always seem to brush aside how Muslims literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) are doing fine and are just normal dudes (that are still practicing Muslims) whenever they are placed somewhere that isn’t a giant shithole. Geez, it’s almost like fucked up situations create fucked up people, someone should really look into that. Maybe they should come up with some obscure theory like nature vs nurture. Better put a white Christian on the job though, just to make sure someone who is qualified is doing it. Some people need to grow a spine that doesn’t rely on distinction for self-value. With all this race war rhetoric that gets thrown around in the USA, I would urge every American to take a close look at the history of my country before the Second World War. And I am not talking about how the holocaust was executed, I am talking about how it was even possible to get there. How a nation unsettled by inner conflicts and economic threats radicalised itself to some extent. How a threat was created, that helped to unite the people by dissociating from those elements. How the narrative of a clearly superior group of people was created to lull people in first, then slowly radicalise them, pitch them against an enemy. Feed them with half-truth, straight up lies and use inner tensions to ultimately have them take part or to some agree tolerate the prosecution of people that they were made to think of as enemies. I wouldn’t go so far to say that the situation of the USA is the same, it’s not even close. However I am convinced that there are people that use similar / the same methods to spread their ideology with at least some success. I am not sure if the translation I found is accurate, what I am getting at is “Flüsterpropaganda” – ‘whispering-campaign’. No one tells you straight up that blacks are inferior, that all Muslims hate women and want to oppress them, that the problems in muslim countries stem from the religion alone. Instead they tell you about black crime rates, they tell you about the ominous sharia while knowing or unknowingly ignoring that this can mean a whole lot of different things. They tell you about THE islam, despite islam having tons of different groups, just like Christianity has. They tell you to make up your own mind while only feeding you strong arguments for their side while trying to capitalise from ignorance / general struggle or prejudice. This is extremely effective and unless you seriously question your own positions you are very prone to fall victim to it. And for the last meme, of course jinro comes to the defence for muslims he is from sweden. He can’t say anything bad about them because his country is overrun with immigrants as we all know and he fears for the safety of his family because all muslims are savages that either revoke their faith or are already training their right arm for the next stoning | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote: That seems to be a starnge way of looking at things shiragaku. Liberals criticise Islamic fundamentalism as a given just as a Christian authoritarian criticise Islamic fundamentalism as a given. Christian fundamentalists are criticised as a focus because there is a large American group of Christian fundamentalists who are actively propogating their values amongst American culture. Everyone hates Islamic fundamentalism and everyone wants to bomb the shit out of them, especially when they indiscriminately kill innocents. Likewise, Christian fundamentalists are also criticized by mainstream Christian society. The majority of Christian conservatives distance themselves from the lunacy of pro-abortion terrorists, Westboro nuts, and the fundamentalist Mormons. But being against a fringe is simply not enough to warrant any praise. Hell, even the Israelis are horrified by the Khamenists and declared him and his followers terrorists and racists. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:23 Shiragaku wrote: Of course, Sam Harris fedoras and right-wing populists will always spew the same idiotic talking points, but I don't see a reason to jump to the defense of social conservative values of minority groups simply because they are being Otherised by demagogues. By not doing so, liberals are losing their reputation of being the defenders of secular values and are allowing populists to instead uphold secular Enlightenment values. Has it not occurred that Geert Wilders saying "Amsterdam is the gay capital of the world" is hilariously outrageous and strange? Habermas said that the future of politics is going to be between multiculturalists vs secularists and if that is so, then oh my God is the future of news and discourse going to be miserable and facepalmy. That's not what happened here, though, which is why your push towards a healthy dialogue that uses shit like that spewed by kickboxer as an opener misses the point of deserved ridicule a la Plansix's bit on how silly it is to blanketly accuse all Muslim places of worship of being fundamentalist terror machines. If that's how these supposedly needed conversations start, they will get abso-fucking-lutely nowhere aside from top voted post on the_donald. Again, a good and nuanced critique of social conservatism like the kind spawned by religious institutions is a good thing, but context matters. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
It's like building Overlords in your own Terran base then wondering why they aren't producing science vessels. As for the current state of Islam (perhaps wrongly, perhaps not, based largely on personal experience), I perceive it as the religion of anger, frustration, "unhappiness" and oppression and would prefer to have as little to do with its active practitioners as possible. Yes that makes me a bigot, no I don't care. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:32 farvacola wrote: See Shiragaku, this is what mixing a good point with stupid and hateful garbage gets you, an encouraged bigot who thinks someone reasonable agrees with him. And I am simply going to distance myself from him and when push comes to shove, not align with him politically. What's so hard about that? Lots of racists love Majid Nawaz, but at the end of the day, Nawaz is a very staunch Liberal Democrat that is against everything a lot of his fans stand for. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:15 Shiragaku wrote: But I wish more liberals were open to criticism of the Islamic conservatism the same way we are of Christian conservatives. I mean, are we going to let only people like Majid Nawaz, Irshad Manji, and Kenan Malik be the only critics of social conservatism from non-Western backgrounds? A lot of Muslim communities have a lot in common with Southern Baptists and some are even comparable to Mormon communities but the only people that bring this up are usually right-wingers who have some pretty deranged ideas about what to do with them. Then criticize specific mosques or leaders, not Muslims on mass. There is 1.5 billion of them, focus the scope of your criticism. As a Christian, I'm never going to listen to someone who throws me into the same pot as a southern baptist. The only thing we have i common is that we attend mass on Sundays. And southern baptist will never listen to a New England Congregationalist. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:40 Plansix wrote: Then criticize specific mosques or leaders, not Muslims on mass. There is 1.5 billion of them, focus the scope of your criticism. As a Christian, I'm never going to listen to someone who throws me into the same pot as a southern baptist. The only thing we have i common is that we attend mass on Sundays. And southern baptist will never listen to a New England Congregationalist. I mean, of course, but I think a good litmus test for seeing if people are truly sincere about secularism are the Salman Rushdie protests. It's clear that the protesters are against liberal ideals, the leaders involved are anti-democratic, and the values being upheld are dangerous and a threat to people within their own communities. I am sorry, but even Christian groups in the US have never gone this far even with Harry Potter. Muslim liberals have no problem calling out the bullshit in the protests and their community that enabled this, why can't we? | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 14 2017 23:46 Shiragaku wrote: I mean, of course, but I think a good litmus test for seeing if people are truly sincere about secularism are the Tariq Ramadan protests. It's clear that the protesters are against liberal ideals, the leaders involved are anti-democratic, and the values being upheld are dangerous and a threat to people within their own communities. I am sorry, but even Christian groups in the US have never gone this far even with Harry Potter. Muslim liberals have no problem calling out the bullshit in the protests and their community that enabled this, why can't we? Then do it in ththe context of supporting liberal Muslims calling it out, rather than claiming that mosques are terrorist factories. You are attempt to communicate criticism, take the time to make sure it isn't views as some racist skree. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
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