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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 16:13:05
October 28 2017 16:08 GMT
#181501
I want my 538 emergency podcast where they place bets about who is being charged Monday. Too bad it's the weekend.

I will say this Uranium One stuff popping up again feels AWFULLY similar to how the Seth Rich stuff conveniently popped up again right around the Comey testimony/firing so Fox would have something to air instead. Or maybe it's just convenient coincidence.
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
October 28 2017 16:08 GMT
#181502
On October 29 2017 01:01 Nevuk wrote:
Wouldn't Obama be more qualified than they usually prefer jurors?


Precisely why I can't imagine him making past the most cursory of screens for Jury selection (strong opinions/knowledge on/of law == bad). Further, if whatever matter he served on actually went to trial, Obama's presence would make the process a nightmare (security, reporters, protesters, fans).
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 28 2017 16:27 GMT
#181503
Nobody reads the original investigative reporting to come to their own conclusions. The tame explanation is it’s long and takes some patience to form a mental summary. The less charitable explanation is people want to dismiss the entirety as conspiracy, and further understanding of the topic is wholly unnecessary and a waste of time.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 16:43:30
October 28 2017 16:41 GMT
#181504
On October 29 2017 01:27 Danglars wrote:
Nobody reads the original investigative reporting to come to their own conclusions. The tame explanation is it’s long and takes some patience to form a mental summary. The less charitable explanation is people want to dismiss the entirety as conspiracy, and further understanding of the topic is wholly unnecessary and a waste of time.


I can read pretty fast. Especially when the articles are less than 5 pages of text. I have read these four sources. You should read them too. If you want to allege ignorance, stick to naming yourself before accusing anonymous others.

Politifact: this is the strongest no-conspiracy-at-all take. Its statement of the facts remains unrebutted from a year ago.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/oct/24/what-you-need-know-about-hillary-clinton-and-urani/

NRO McCarthy: this is the most bullshit stuffed conspiracy mongering piece out there, and the best positive argument for the conspiracy. Its failure dooms any allegations.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452972/uranium-one-deal-obama-administration-doj-hillary-clinton-racketeering

Lawfare: this is a more balanced take that focused specifically on the legal procedures around the CFIUS Process. This article is a deathblow to any conspiracies. The Uranium One uranium can't be exported. The only risk is that Rosatom would sit on the rights and not dig up Uranium in some kind of cartel action.
https://lawfareblog.com/unpacking-uranium-one-hype-and-law

Wikipedia's discussion of uranium production (~4-5 million tons) versus imports (~55-60 million tons). The Wyoming page shows that Uranium One is actually digging uranium up and selling it, thereby eliminating the only real danger of transferring digging rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_in_Wyoming
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 28 2017 17:58 GMT
#181505
On October 29 2017 01:41 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2017 01:27 Danglars wrote:
Nobody reads the original investigative reporting to come to their own conclusions. The tame explanation is it’s long and takes some patience to form a mental summary. The less charitable explanation is people want to dismiss the entirety as conspiracy, and further understanding of the topic is wholly unnecessary and a waste of time.


I can read pretty fast. Especially when the articles are less than 5 pages of text. I have read these four sources. You should read them too. If you want to allege ignorance, stick to naming yourself before accusing anonymous others.

Politifact: this is the strongest no-conspiracy-at-all take. Its statement of the facts remains unrebutted from a year ago.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/oct/24/what-you-need-know-about-hillary-clinton-and-urani/

NRO McCarthy: this is the most bullshit stuffed conspiracy mongering piece out there, and the best positive argument for the conspiracy. Its failure dooms any allegations.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452972/uranium-one-deal-obama-administration-doj-hillary-clinton-racketeering

Lawfare: this is a more balanced take that focused specifically on the legal procedures around the CFIUS Process. This article is a deathblow to any conspiracies. The Uranium One uranium can't be exported. The only risk is that Rosatom would sit on the rights and not dig up Uranium in some kind of cartel action.
https://lawfareblog.com/unpacking-uranium-one-hype-and-law

Wikipedia's discussion of uranium production (~4-5 million tons) versus imports (~55-60 million tons). The Wyoming page shows that Uranium One is actually digging uranium up and selling it, thereby eliminating the only real danger of transferring digging rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_in_Wyoming

At least Politifact does cite portions of the Hill article before concluding on scant testimony that Hillary was unlikely to know about the huge Russian nuclear corruption (mostly in the form of kickbacks) occurring. Now the Obama administration knew of a large racketeering operation with Russian an US businesses, but didn’t brief Congress/its oversight boards or suspend/cancel these plans in light of it. It simultaneously enticed the informant into an NDA and later pressured him not to file suit. This extra four years of a secretive investigation was spent just to end in a very minor plea deal (NR reporting).

Former Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), who chaired the House Intelligence Committee during the time the FBI probe was being conducted, told The Hill that he had never been told anything about the Russian nuclear corruption case even though many fellow lawmakers had serious concerns about the Obama administration’s approval of the Uranium One deal.

“Not providing information on a corruption scheme before the Russian uranium deal was approved by U.S. regulators and engage appropriate congressional committees has served to undermine U.S. national security interests by the very people charged with protecting them,” he said. “The Russian efforts to manipulate our American political enterprise is breathtaking.”


I think the Obama administration didn’t want knowledge of this scheme out and threatening the way he wished to conduct diplomacy with the Russians post-reset and later post-Crimea. Congress should’ve been briefed to have opportunity to pass legislation affecting the deal in light of its oversight position of the federal bureacracy. This is even if they conclude the Clinton money is no biggie and all the rest.

I have a very low opinion of your ability to see straight on these topics. You can dismiss McCarthy’s assemblage if facts and conclusions and put high confidence in Politifacts reporting and surmises at your own volition. I’m more interested if others can read The Hill’s piece and conclude there’s something to this that doesn’t reflect well on the Obama administration, McCabe, and Mueller (+team). Without doing this shilling for Hillary or Obama like it’s too mean to them or something.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 18:32:52
October 28 2017 18:20 GMT
#181506
Republican Congressmen are the least credible people in the universe on alleged HRC/Obama scandals. They are serial fabulists. Do you remember the Benghazi investigation? 1 month after DJT got elected the entire series of Benghazi probes just went away. They were agitprop from the beginning and disappeared after they weren't useful anymore. If you want to push some kind of conspiracy here, you need to be citing/quoting primary sources, not secondary commentary by fabulists.

EDIT: John Solomon pieces tend to be a form of fan fiction where ill deeds are assumed and connection are placed without any kind of evidence. I reread the John Solomon hill pieces. What basis do we have to assume that the FBI only getting a few charges against the Ruskie was villainous? That it took 4 years to push through a complicated case ... how is that evil? When the kickback scheme was discovered in 2010, how widespread was this knowledge? Further, why should this have been made public before charges were filed? Wouldn't that have risked any efforts at shutting down the ring? And couldn't there be a pretty straightforwards innocent explanation why FBI secret informants would have to keep secrets? Maybe the FBI didn't want their informant going to the press because the FBI was after other guys and didn't want them tipped off? Solomon's reporting relies on the reader to assume that Bill/Hill/Obama are evil and are pulling the strings somehow with the bad guys. Solomon never ponies up how they are doing it and never takes into account the possibility that the FBI might have its own procedures and does things based on its best judgment.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/355749-fbi-uncovered-russian-bribery-plot-before-obama-administration
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 19:42:32
October 28 2017 19:35 GMT
#181507
On October 29 2017 03:20 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Republican Congressmen are the least credible people in the universe on alleged HRC/Obama scandals. They are serial fabulists. Do you remember the Benghazi investigation? 1 month after DJT got elected the entire series of Benghazi probes just went away. They were agitprop from the beginning and disappeared after they weren't useful anymore. If you want to push some kind of conspiracy here, you need to be citing/quoting primary sources, not secondary commentary by fabulists.

EDIT: John Solomon pieces tend to be a form of fan fiction where ill deeds are assumed and connection are placed without any kind of evidence. I reread the John Solomon hill pieces. What basis do we have to assume that the FBI only getting a few charges against the Ruskie was villainous? That it took 4 years to push through a complicated case ... how is that evil? When the kickback scheme was discovered in 2010, how widespread was this knowledge? Further, why should this have been made public before charges were filed? Wouldn't that have risked any efforts at shutting down the ring? And couldn't there be a pretty straightforwards innocent explanation why FBI secret informants would have to keep secrets? Maybe the FBI didn't want their informant going to the press because the FBI was after other guys and didn't want them tipped off? Solomon's reporting relies on the reader to assume that Bill/Hill/Obama are evil and are pulling the strings somehow with the bad guys. Solomon never ponies up how they are doing it and never takes into account the possibility that the FBI might have its own procedures and does things based on its best judgment.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/355749-fbi-uncovered-russian-bribery-plot-before-obama-administration

When you start out giving these sweeping generalizations on people you don’t support, I’m rolling my eyes. You couldn’t even separate conservative sellouts from conservatives still voting on principle at our last crossing. You have no grounding in Congressional oversight and you’re transparently cheerleading for your team. I have zero inclination to continue along these lines because your only contribution is attacking the messengers and not the message (also: “But Benghazi!!!!” seems to be your substantive response to everything that happens after Benghazi.) I’m probably ending this troll feeding section here, but I’m sure I’ll find future opportunities to humor it again for a series of posts.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 28 2017 19:58 GMT
#181508
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
October 28 2017 20:11 GMT
#181509
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
October 28 2017 20:39 GMT
#181510
On October 29 2017 05:11 KwarK wrote:
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.

It's less of a somehow and more of an "of course". The more exposure I've had to this whole fiasco, the more obvious it becomes that deflection and whataboutism become the strategy du jour. They're sincerely hoping that by repeating it frequently and loudly enough, that people won't notice how much worse it is on the very side that's making a stink about it. A big giveaway is how loud the Hillary stuff still is, when she lost nearly a year ago. We have someone now in the White House who's so much deeper in it, as evidenced by the first of hopefully many indictments, who compounds it all by being the most ignorant, bigoted, and incompetent person to assume the office in modern American politics. Even if the right people do end up going down, it's still troubling that this much of the public consciousness is focused on pure distractions.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
October 28 2017 20:46 GMT
#181511
On October 29 2017 05:39 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2017 05:11 KwarK wrote:
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.

It's less of a somehow and more of an "of course". The more exposure I've had to this whole fiasco, the more obvious it becomes that deflection and whataboutism become the strategy du jour. They're sincerely hoping that by repeating it frequently and loudly enough, that people won't notice how much worse it is on the very side that's making a stink about it. A big giveaway is how loud the Hillary stuff still is, when she lost nearly a year ago. We have someone now in the White House who's so much deeper in it, as evidenced by the first of hopefully many indictments, who compounds it all by being the most ignorant, bigoted, and incompetent person to assume the office in modern American politics. Even if the right people do end up going down, it's still troubling that this much of the public consciousness is focused on pure distractions.

I mean, it worked against Hillary prior to the election. Years of smear campaigns did their work even if nothing actually stuck.
Makes sense that they keep it up. They need to keep feeding the 'enemy 'narrative that they build to get themselves into power.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 20:53:59
October 28 2017 20:51 GMT
#181512
On October 29 2017 05:46 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2017 05:39 NewSunshine wrote:
On October 29 2017 05:11 KwarK wrote:
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.

It's less of a somehow and more of an "of course". The more exposure I've had to this whole fiasco, the more obvious it becomes that deflection and whataboutism become the strategy du jour. They're sincerely hoping that by repeating it frequently and loudly enough, that people won't notice how much worse it is on the very side that's making a stink about it. A big giveaway is how loud the Hillary stuff still is, when she lost nearly a year ago. We have someone now in the White House who's so much deeper in it, as evidenced by the first of hopefully many indictments, who compounds it all by being the most ignorant, bigoted, and incompetent person to assume the office in modern American politics. Even if the right people do end up going down, it's still troubling that this much of the public consciousness is focused on pure distractions.

I mean, it worked against Hillary prior to the election. Years of smear campaigns did their work even if nothing actually stuck.
Makes sense that they keep it up. They need to keep feeding the 'enemy 'narrative that they build to get themselves into power.

True. But now things have come full circle in an interesting way. The people peddling this bullshit still haven't realized that what they're doing comes dangerously close to what we've seen in authoritarian regimes throughout history. Show unquestioning loyalty to your leader, shoot down any and all criticism or questioning of your leader from anyone else, and develop an easily bought false narrative of some national enemy, to get people to fall in line if all else fails. A surprising number of people will do just about anything for the pride of their nation.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
October 28 2017 20:57 GMT
#181513
On October 29 2017 05:51 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2017 05:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 29 2017 05:39 NewSunshine wrote:
On October 29 2017 05:11 KwarK wrote:
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.

It's less of a somehow and more of an "of course". The more exposure I've had to this whole fiasco, the more obvious it becomes that deflection and whataboutism become the strategy du jour. They're sincerely hoping that by repeating it frequently and loudly enough, that people won't notice how much worse it is on the very side that's making a stink about it. A big giveaway is how loud the Hillary stuff still is, when she lost nearly a year ago. We have someone now in the White House who's so much deeper in it, as evidenced by the first of hopefully many indictments, who compounds it all by being the most ignorant, bigoted, and incompetent person to assume the office in modern American politics. Even if the right people do end up going down, it's still troubling that this much of the public consciousness is focused on pure distractions.

I mean, it worked against Hillary prior to the election. Years of smear campaigns did their work even if nothing actually stuck.
Makes sense that they keep it up. They need to keep feeding the 'enemy 'narrative that they build to get themselves into power.

True. But now things have come full circle in an interesting way. The people peddling this bullshit still haven't realized that what they're doing comes dangerously close to what we've seen in authoritarian regimes throughout history. Show unquestioning loyalty to your leader, shoot down any and all criticism or questioning of your leader from anyone else, and develop an easily bought false narrative of some national enemy, to get people to fall in line if all else fails.

Really?
You think the professional spin doctors haven't figured out the oldest trick in the book to control a population?
You think they came up with it themselves?
What you think they don't realize is exactly what they know and intent to be doing.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 21:01:59
October 28 2017 21:01 GMT
#181514
Either they don't know, or they pretend not to know. I'm not going to make the leap and assume knowing malice when ignorance is an equally viable reason. The leaders who push it probably know, but the people who absorb it and inject it into public discourse probably don't.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 21:06:12
October 28 2017 21:02 GMT
#181515
On October 29 2017 05:51 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2017 05:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 29 2017 05:39 NewSunshine wrote:
On October 29 2017 05:11 KwarK wrote:
We have Trump Jr in a room with a Russian agent discussing sanction relief in a meeting he only took in the hope of receiving foreign help in the election and somehow the traitors in the White House are still talking about Hillary.

It's less of a somehow and more of an "of course". The more exposure I've had to this whole fiasco, the more obvious it becomes that deflection and whataboutism become the strategy du jour. They're sincerely hoping that by repeating it frequently and loudly enough, that people won't notice how much worse it is on the very side that's making a stink about it. A big giveaway is how loud the Hillary stuff still is, when she lost nearly a year ago. We have someone now in the White House who's so much deeper in it, as evidenced by the first of hopefully many indictments, who compounds it all by being the most ignorant, bigoted, and incompetent person to assume the office in modern American politics. Even if the right people do end up going down, it's still troubling that this much of the public consciousness is focused on pure distractions.

I mean, it worked against Hillary prior to the election. Years of smear campaigns did their work even if nothing actually stuck.
Makes sense that they keep it up. They need to keep feeding the 'enemy 'narrative that they build to get themselves into power.

True. But now things have come full circle in an interesting way. The people peddling this bullshit still haven't realized that what they're doing comes dangerously close to what we've seen in authoritarian regimes throughout history. Show unquestioning loyalty to your leader, shoot down any and all criticism or questioning of your leader from anyone else, and develop an easily bought false narrative of some national enemy, to get people to fall in line if all else fails. A surprising number of people will do just about anything for the pride of their nation.

or they know what they're doing adn just don't care. maybe they just think they're an exception; or maybe they're just too caught up in "winning" to care about the rest. there has been too much "bunker" and war mentality from a fair number of political operatives.
plenty of ways for them to rationalize they're not really doing anything wrong.

a lot o fpeople are fools, and a lot are jerks, and just don't care about the damage they cause.

and it's not like they're random people, the selection process for them favors shilling, professional conmen. and it definitely doesn't favor morality.

it woudln't be malice, it'd be amorality.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 28 2017 21:04 GMT
#181516
I'm not sure what the Uranium One 'scandal' is supposed to be. Russia is already a premier nuclear power so they don't exactly need our mines to have nukes. So, unless there was an oddly favorable deal (price, export terms) I'm not sure what there would be to see here.

Can someone show that? Otherwise this seems to be an attempt to prey on people's existing revulsion to both uranium and Russia.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 21:26:45
October 28 2017 21:11 GMT
#181517
On October 29 2017 06:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
I'm not sure what the Uranium One 'scandal' is supposed to be. Russia is already a premier nuclear power so they don't exactly need our mines to have nukes. So, unless there was an oddly favorable deal (price, export terms) I'm not sure what there would be to see here.

Can someone show that? Otherwise this seems to be an attempt to prey on people's existing revulsion to both uranium and Russia.

it entriely is an attempt to prey on people's revulsion of russia/uraniam/hillary, based on innuendo rather than facts.
implying that she did something improper (bribery! nuclear secrets!) as part of some deal with russia.

lack of specificity is often part of the point. a specific claim can be refuted; muddying the waters and implying "something happened" is far harder to refute.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 28 2017 21:24 GMT
#181518
I’m personally not sure what U1 is about in the most direct sense: I can’t really tell what is being claimed and who is supposedly at fault. Moderately shitty behavior on behalf of Clinton would not be surprising but I just don’t know if any exists - or doesn’t exist.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 28 2017 21:33 GMT
#181519
When even LL thinks a negative story about Hillary is a nonstarter you've lost the plot
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 22:00:26
October 28 2017 21:39 GMT
#181520
Have you heard of economic hitman? Do you know what that is? Anything you believe in?
Seen any videos?

YOu know who john perkins is? Or is this a quack you dont listen to?
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