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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.
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[quote]So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all. Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers. But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed. What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them. When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid. On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?
"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.
He also wrote the Declaration of Independence." "He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death." Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done. Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to. ((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you?
Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore.
"I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history."
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On September 18 2017 05:46 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 05:39 Introvert wrote:On September 18 2017 05:19 Danglars wrote:
America celebrates constitution day today.
We're largely in a post-constitutional society, but the part that survives sustains us still. It was signed on September 17th, 1787. With all this talk of statues and history, maybe we can compromise and swap out Columbus Day with Constitution Day as a federal holiday. constitution day sounds potentially better; doubtful it's really worth an actual day off holiday though.
what does it mean to be "worth an actual day off holiday?" how many holidays a year would you approve? which ones?
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On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.
But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed. What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them. When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid. On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?
"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.
He also wrote the Declaration of Independence." "He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death." Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done. Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to. ((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history."
Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see.
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United States43210 Posts
On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]
What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them. When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid. On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."
Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.
Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to. ((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see.
You keep saying they shrouded a statue out of cowardice. They're not afraid the statue is going to get them. The shroud isn't so it can't see them. This isn't some kind of Doctor Who Blink thing.
Cowardice is doing nothing. They chose action.
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On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]
What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them. When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid. On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."
Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.
Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to. ((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see.
I mean, the US itself is the result of a revolution and in a way ahistorical. Seems kind of weird to be obsessed about historical founding figures and great men. Isn't the whole point of the US that it renews itself and is whatever new generation makes it and all of that?
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On September 18 2017 07:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.
When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
[quote]
((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see. You keep saying they shrouded a statue out of cowardice. They're not afraid the statue is going to get them. The shroud isn't so it can't see them. This isn't some kind of Doctor Who Blink thing. Cowardice is doing nothing. They chose action.
Is anybody on the forum in favor of taking down statues of founding fathers? I don't remember if anyone actually supported it.
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It is just a coincidence that the rando accounts that get retweeted by Trump are anti-Semitic.
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On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]
What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them. When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid. On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."
Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.
Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to. ((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see.
Ok so if, when you say, "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" you mean "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety only so long as everyone agrees with me" you should just come out and say that.
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On September 18 2017 07:06 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 05:46 zlefin wrote:On September 18 2017 05:39 Introvert wrote:On September 18 2017 05:19 Danglars wrote:America celebrates constitution day today. https://twitter.com/molratty/status/909505897218666498We're largely in a post-constitutional society, but the part that survives sustains us still. It was signed on September 17th, 1787. With all this talk of statues and history, maybe we can compromise and swap out Columbus Day with Constitution Day as a federal holiday. constitution day sounds potentially better; doubtful it's really worth an actual day off holiday though. what does it mean to be "worth an actual day off holiday?" how many holidays a year would you approve? which ones?
It's not an exact standard; but roughly it means people take the time off to do something related to the holiday specifically; rather than just taking the day off to do whatever (or take advantage of random sales) and paying only lip service (or not even that) to the holiday.
It's not about a specific number of holidays a year, it's more about making sure holidays aren't just nominal or random days off.
There's a variety of possible metrics/tests:
one would be if it weren't a legal holiday, how many people would take time off anyways to do something? A lot of people would still take time off for christmas; religious people often have a set of religious holidays they'll take. (as a practical matter, if a sufficiently large number of people are going to take a holiday anyways, i'm somewhat inclined to just make it a holiday for everyone, like if half the people are going to be missing the day anyways, bringing in only half the normal staff often means nothing can get done)
another question would be how many hours do people spend celebrating the holiday on that day.
yet another is to what extent can the holiday be celebrated even if it weren't a legal day-off type holiday. (like valentine's and halloween, which both tend to get a good amount of celebration in anyways)
*all conclusions subject to change given more information
I don't necessarily require a lot of effort from everyone to make something a holiday; but if barely anyone does anything for it then it seems like it shouldn't be a holiday. It doesn't seem like much of anything Columbus day related happens.
Christmas and Thanksgiving see lots of use; 4th of july sees a fair amount; as do veteran's and memorial day (parades, and some more private things for people with them in their families).
President's day, I don't really see anyone doing anything to actually mark the occasion (and I don't count car sales and other sales that take advantage of a day off). MLK jr day, I'm not aware of much being actually done for it, though there may be a bunch of things that I'm not aware of.
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Why do you think a holiday's name must have a tangible connection to what people do with that day off? Could we have generic holidays just to have holidays and give people a break from working?
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On September 18 2017 07:51 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.
When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
[quote]
((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see. I mean, the US itself is the result of a revolution and in a way ahistorical. Seems kind of weird to be obsessed about historical founding figures and great men. Isn't the whole point of the US that it renews itself and is whatever new generation makes it and all of that?
I think you're confusing us with banana republics. They viva la revolucion!
On September 18 2017 08:00 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:On September 18 2017 07:04 IgnE wrote:On September 18 2017 01:40 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 14:30 IgnE wrote:On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.
When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
[quote]
((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now)) Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that. Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead. Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding. It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here. The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true. You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there. I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted. The bad faith is all you Danglars. Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry. On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you: When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context. I elaborated because you said: you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it. So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears. so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?" The protest covered up the statue in a shroud. The symbolism isn't very hard to grasp. What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Yeah the symbolism is: we've reexamined this statue and what it represents to the citizens under its haughty gaze, and collectively we've decided that, having examined the complicated man whose image is depicted, we'd rather not have the statue anymore. "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" means that you'd be open to taking down a statue upon reevaluation of said man, rather than resorting to nonsensical arguments about "erasing history." Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see. Ok so if, when you say, "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" you mean "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety only so long as everyone agrees with me" you should just come out and say that.
You should really try to actually answer the question. We have enough people trolling on side memes as it is. Tell me, What does "I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety" mean to you? Aside from "Haha you only want people to agree with you I refuse to answer."
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On September 18 2017 08:27 IgnE wrote:
Why do you think a holiday's name must have a tangible connection to what people do with that day off? Could we have generic holidays just to have holidays and give people a break from working?
well, it's not so much a "must" as a "should"; it seems to me that if there's no connection, there's little reason for it to even be a holiday (which is rooted in holy day after all)
the holiday's name isn't just a random name; it's ostensibly the reason for it to be a day off in the first place.
I also prefer how holidays to have some social utility (though that is negotiable as well)
I suppose we could have generic holidays; but I'd have to see some stats demonstrating an actual social utility to so doing compared to other plans to accomplish the same goals. after all, time off doesn't mean the need for stuff getting done goes away, it merely displaces it onto other times.
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On September 18 2017 08:27 IgnE wrote:
Could we have generic holidays just to have holidays and give people a break from working?
those are called vacation days
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Do those providers subsidise these solar panels? That's one thing, i guess. Retarded, but at least somewhere in the ballpark of "explanation".
If a home owner bought it himself and isn't allowed to use it, this elevates my understanding of US corruption to korean levels.
edit: in regards to the whole statue, confederate stuff etc: who's gonna message gaijin software, and wargaming to rename the M3 Lee tank?
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On September 18 2017 08:46 m4ini wrote:Do those providers subsidise these solar panels? That's one thing, i guess. Retarded, but at least somewhere in the ballpark of "explanation".
That would cut into their billion plus revenue. The explanation is that the company does what will be best for their bottom line.
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On September 18 2017 08:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:46 m4ini wrote:Do those providers subsidise these solar panels? That's one thing, i guess. Retarded, but at least somewhere in the ballpark of "explanation". That would cut into their billion plus revenue.
Well not necessarily, in the long run. I'm asking because in the UK, solar panels are subsidised. At least the ones on my roof. So it's not that far off to wonder if it's the same in the US.
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On September 18 2017 08:53 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 18 2017 08:46 m4ini wrote:Do those providers subsidise these solar panels? That's one thing, i guess. Retarded, but at least somewhere in the ballpark of "explanation". That would cut into their billion plus revenue. Well not necessarily, in the long run. I'm asking because in the UK, solar panels are subsidised. At least the ones on my roof. So it's not that far off to wonder if it's the same in the US.
I probably should have elaborated a bit more on how corrupt the situation is.
The homeowners actually have solar panels installed, but the utility company requires that the panels be hooked into the grid. Since the grid is down, utilizing the solar panels would mean a potential backfeed which would make the problem even worse so they're not allowed to turn them on. The installation requirements that the power company lobbied for make the solar panels useless when they'd be most useful.
What it really comes down to is the Sunshine State should probably be leading the country in solar energy. Basically all the states in that area are some of the best for solar energy and have the worst in the country. Florida isn't close to the bottom in the country, but it really should be in the top 3.
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On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:...
Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see.
>Endgoal of group is to add a plaque to the statue giving a deeper look at what the man actually did
>Group is terrified of examining the man's place in history and deeper nature
???
The only one here terrified of examining the place in history and deeper nature of Jefferson appears to be you, given how vehemently you seem to oppose any public acknowledgement of his flaws.
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On September 18 2017 09:22 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 07:17 Danglars wrote:...
Hilarious. Examine great men in view of their accomplishments and flaws. They founded a great nation where the world questions it's destiny and direction. Little men shroud and vandalize its founding figures, terrified at examining their place in history and deeper nature. Their cowardice is on view for the entire nation to see. >Endgoal of group is to add a plaque to the statue giving a deeper look at what the man actually did >Group is terrified of examining the man's place in history and deeper nature
Clearly needs more time to analyze what covering up a statue is taken to mean.
The only one here terrified of examining the place in history and deeper nature of Jefferson appears to be you, given how vehemently you seem to oppose any public acknowledgement of his flaws.
I'm a great defender of publicly acknowledging his flaws. Try again.
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EPT
