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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
September 14 2017 12:27 GMT
#174641
On September 14 2017 21:07 Leporello wrote:
So, judging from comments from people like Chuck Grassley, it sounds like congressional committees were negotiating through all this currently, and then Trump just cuts-in.

So Trump is now insisting he did not give them a deal, because if he did, he just screwed over the ongoing Republican negotiations. "Undercut" them, Grassley says. That's the important part. It isn't just that he intruded. It's that he gave his position away for nothing.

Trump isn't a deal-maker. He's a tacky salesman, and his targets are idiots and dupes. He can't negotiate with savvy adults. He is prone to just do whatever makes him feel most important and "successful". He is the dupe. So, at the very least, Schumer and Pelosi have just again revealed what kind of actual businessman Trump is, and how he completely just doesn't understand the processes of... anything. There is no strategic mind behind that freakish head.

This really is the WWE President. The meaninglessness in the ways he has dealt with these issues is astounding.

He announces DACA-retirement in some 6-month countdown stunt. He sends AG Sessions out to justify deporting these people in public statements. And now he's tweeting what a terrible thing it would be to deport these people...? He talks with the Dems to make a deal. Everyone says a deal was made. Now Trump saying it didn't happen... This is schizo! This is a child that doesn't know what to do or what it wants, he just wants everyone to call him a "good boy" and forget about all the crap he just broke.


lol

I mean Trump was never a guy of ideology or keeping promises. He's in it for himself and if he thinks his stature will increase by working with Democrats he will do it. He'd love to boast how he fixed DACA while Obama couldn't. He doesn't care about his base, he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

The question is how large % of his voters are either pure Trump fans, Republicans that voted for non-hilary, or Bannon/breitbart fanatics. Crazies like Coulter are dropping him now it seems.
Neosteel Enthusiast
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 12:32:50
September 14 2017 12:30 GMT
#174642


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
September 14 2017 12:34 GMT
#174643
Trump's base is shrinking and with all this tumult, I'd bet that it starts to fall apart entirely before long.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 14 2017 12:40 GMT
#174644


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
September 14 2017 12:41 GMT
#174645
That Grassley tweet makes my eyes bleed lol
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 12:55:34
September 14 2017 12:51 GMT
#174646
On September 14 2017 21:41 farvacola wrote:
That Grassley tweet makes my eyes bleed lol


He had a lot to say, but it wasn't important enough for 2 tweets.

edit: Since this is the direction we are apparently going, maybe Twitter should set up special government official Twitter accounts that can make tweets that have a higher character limit, like 210. I think people could still commit to reading 210 characters without giving up entirely.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
September 14 2017 12:51 GMT
#174647
Grammar on twits ended up becoming important. Who knew?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 13:17:30
September 14 2017 13:15 GMT
#174648
Grassley is literally using Twitter to reach Trump...as in that is the method he feels he should use to reach him. It really needs to be understood how incompetent Trump is. Before the Obamacare repeal vote, Trump tweeted that his party should get rid of the filibuster so they can pass Obamacare repeal...even though they were already using a method of repeal that only required 51 votes. This is President 101 stuff. Twitter allows Trump to get his unfiltered thoughts out - and it reveals how embarrassingly amateurish he is.

When the news about people losing their pre-Obamacare health plans came out, and people's premium's were rising etc, I actually felt feelings of regret and guilt for voting for Obama. Anyone who voted for Trump should be shitting themselves because of the risk they exposed us to.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 13:37:49
September 14 2017 13:34 GMT
#174649
i agree with trump. there was no deal on DACA, he just literally gave the dems what they wanted without them really giving him anything... except the chance to maybe sign legislation?

i wouldn't feel that bad about the rising premiums and cancelation of some plans due to the ACA. the vast majority of canceled plans were because they were garbage, and the premiums increased because of a previously uninsured higher risk population. paying more sucks for the individual, but as a society we're better off with more coverage for more citizens - ultimately, the individual also benefits when ER usage by the formerly uninsured declines since he's essentially picking up the tab for that.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
September 14 2017 13:38 GMT
#174650
the_donald not happy

Neosteel Enthusiast
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 14 2017 13:41 GMT
#174651
In other news, Orrrin Hatch is actually pretty funny.


Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) announced Wednesday that he will introduce a bill to remove barriers blocking research into medical marijuana.

In a pun-filled statement released on Twitter, Hatch said it was "high time" to address the issue.

“It’s high time to address research into medical marijuana,” Hatch said Wednesday. “Our country has experimented with a variety of state solutions without properly delving into the weeds on the effectiveness, safety, dosing, administration, and quality of medical marijuana."

"To be blunt," Hatch added, "we need to remove the administrative barriers preventing legitimate research into medical marijuana, which is why I’ve decided to roll out the MEDS Act.”


thehill.com
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2017 13:45 GMT
#174652
Also, in related new - ICE continues to be a blight on this nation.

In July, the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)—the agency charged with maintaining records produced by the federal government—published a request made by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to begin destroying detainee records, including those related to in-custody deaths, sexual assault, and the use of solitary confinement. The request has been preliminarily approved.

The petition to destroy records comes at a time when ICE has been tasked with increasing its enforcement operations, widening its apprehension net to include groups of previously protected people, even those benefiting from Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), a program that was rescinded on September 5. Unless Congress passes some version of the Dream Act, DACA recipients will see their protection begin to expire next March. ICE petitioned to begin destroying some types of records as quickly as three years after they are created, 20 years for others.


...

According to Community Initiatives for Visiting Immigrants in Confinement (CIVIC), there were 14,693 reported incidents of sexual and physical abuse in ICE detention centers from 2010 to 2016—and just over 1 percent of these complaints sparked an investigation. Among all DHS agencies, according to CIVIC, the number of complaints of sexual and physical abuse received by the Office of Inspector General in the same period was over 33,000. As the ACLU has documented, “sexual abuse allegations have come from nearly every state that houses an immigration detention center. The data crystallizes the urgent need for the government to admit just how pervasive a problem sexual abuse is in its immigration jails and to take immediate steps to ensure that all detainees are protected.”



Source
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 14:54:31
September 14 2017 14:50 GMT
#174653
On September 14 2017 21:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2017 08:55 Danglars wrote:
On September 14 2017 08:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 14 2017 08:29 Danglars wrote:
On September 14 2017 06:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 14 2017 05:51 xDaunt wrote:
On September 14 2017 05:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
So in theory, you're fine with terms like cultural Randism if a libertarian school of thought achieved influence on a similar level to the Frankfurt School?

Why not? If there's a connection to Rand, I don't see the problem.


I'm honestly not intimately familiar with her works, but I've had the impression that she, like Marx, is more about economy than culture, and that it'd be a pretty meaningless term. Honestly kind of secondary though, my main argument against the term is more along the lines of;

What if the term is hardly ever used, but then gains popularity following a leftist timothy mcweigh who attacks and kills 100 boyscouts during the 2018 boyscout Jamboree where he prior to attacking posts an online manifesto where he specifies that he targeted those boyscouts because they were likely to be future representatives of Cultural Randism, a term that is consistently used to denigrate the political opponents of leftist timothy mcweigh. That's actually a pretty perfect parallel. And I can guarantee that I'd avoid the term if this is how it came to achieve notoriety.

I never heard the term in context of Breivik. I heard it as a critique of the ideology underpinning certain aspects of extreme political correctness and parts of leftist political ideology in the social/societal realm. I read around, reviewed chapters of foundational Marxist/Leninist works, and it's a pretty easy tie-in applying broad themes from the Marxist vision of economic thought to culture. It's all the power struggle of cultural forces, everything is victim/oppressor relationship ... you've just switched what and who is proletariat and bourgeoisie. The solution is undermining the existing system (incrementalist variant) and revolution.

Now, if some Norwegian comes over and says the true history of the term is a nutty terrorist from Norway, I'm going to view you with incredulity. Marxist thought and ideology is far older than that dude. The works are widely known. Any semi intelligent man or woman can put the two and two together for societal critique. The ideas of Marx & Engels translated into culture wars. I see a central truth to the characterization. I don't personally use it that often, not because of one nut, but because evangelical preachers and politicians have misused it to encompass any cultural decay in society. Is your story of acquaintance with the term your unique path, the understanding of most Norwegians, or straight Scandinavian?


https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=cultural marxism

That one really significant peak is where breivik's manifesto is posted. To be fair, it was used slightly more than I expected before that (I had never heard the term pre-breivik though), but this is when it became mainstream. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=NO&q=cultural marxism is the trend for Norway, as you can see, it's virtually non-existent pre-breivik. I definitely think most Norwegians share my understanding of the phrase.

And I heard it as both the conspiracy theory (and silly conservative bugaboo) and relating Marxist theories to culture throughout the 2000s. As an example, here's Andrew Breitbart going off on it before the attack+ Show Spoiler +




SPLC references the 1998 William Lind speech
It has taken over both political parties and is enforced by many laws and government regulations. It almost totally controls the most powerful element in our culture, the entertainment industry. It dominates both public and higher education. ... It has even captured the clergy in many Christian churches.

That writeup was published in 2003 and cited several persons and organizations.

Buchanan, Nixon & Reagan adviser/speechwriter/etc and Republican presidential candidate, was probably my first exposure. His famous culture war speech (Republican National Convention 1992) and all the books and TV appearances. Explicit in his book and speeches.

So suffice it to say, the term's been around. The last post I commented on its historical accuracy, and I'll restate here it does have a connotation of communist conspiracy if used indiscriminately.


Thanks for this. I'll internalize the information.


Danglars need a citation on the passages from "foundational Marxist/Leninist" works where it's a short hop from capitalist exploitation to "safe spaces" and trans bathrooms.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 14 2017 14:55 GMT
#174654

Former national security adviser Susan Rice privately told House investigators that she unmasked the identities of senior Trump officials to understand why the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates was in New York late last year, multiple sources told CNN.

The New York meeting preceded a separate effort by the UAE to facilitate a back-channel communication between Russia and the incoming Trump White House.

The crown prince, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan, arrived in New York last December in the transition period before Trump was sworn into office for a meeting with several top Trump officials, including Michael Flynn, the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and his top strategist Steve Bannon, sources said.

...

The Washington Post initially reported in April that the UAE brokered a pre-inauguration meeting between the founder of the security firm Blackwater, Erik Prince, who is a close Trump ally, and an associate of Vladimir Putin's in the Seychelles Islands. The purpose of the meeting was part of an effort by the UAE to persuade Russia to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, according to the Post.

And it occured shortly after Bannon, Flynn and Kushner also met in Trump Tower with Zayed, whom the Post said helped arrange the Seychelles meeting with Russia government officials to set up the private discussions with the Trump team.


www.cnn.com
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 14 2017 15:03 GMT
#174655
The blaring, grinding noise jolted the American diplomat from his bed in a Havana hotel. He moved just a few feet, and there was silence. He climbed back into bed. Inexplicably, the agonizing sound hit him again. It was as if he’d walked through some invisible wall cutting straight through his room.

Soon came the hearing loss, and the speech problems, symptoms both similar and altogether different from others among at least 21 US victims in an astonishing international mystery still unfolding in Cuba. The top US diplomat has called them “health attacks”.

New details learned by The Associated Press indicate at least some of the incidents were confined to specific rooms or even parts of rooms with laser-like specificity, baffling US officials who say the facts and the physics don’t add up.

“None of this has a reasonable explanation,” said Fulton Armstrong, a former CIA official who served in Havana long before America re-opened an embassy there. “It’s just mystery after mystery after mystery.”

Suspicion initially focused on a sonic weapon, and on the Cubans. Yet the diagnosis of mild brain injury, considered unlikely to result from sound, has confounded the FBI, the state department and US intelligence agencies involved in the investigation.

Some victims now have problems concentrating or recalling specific words, several officials said, the latest signs of more serious damage than the US government initially realized. The United States first acknowledged the attacks in August – nine months after symptoms were first reported.

The Trump administration still hasn’t identified a culprit or a device to explain the attacks, according to interviews with more than a dozen current and former US officials, Cuban officials and others briefed on the investigation. Most weren’t authorized to discuss the probe and demanded anonymity.

In fact, almost nothing about what went down in Havana is clear. Investigators have tested several theories about an intentional attack: by Cuba’s government, a rogue faction of its security forces, a third country like Russia or some combination thereof. Yet they’ve left open the possibility an advanced espionage operation went horribly awry, or that some other, less nefarious explanation is to blame.

Aside from their homes, officials said Americans were attacked in at least one hotel, a fact not previously disclosed. An incident occurred on an upper floor of the recently renovated Hotel Capri, a 60-year-old concrete tower steps from the Malecon, Havana’s iconic, waterside promenade.

The cases vary deeply: different symptoms, different recollections of what happened.

In several episodes recounted by US officials, victims knew it was happening in real time, and there were strong indications of a sonic attack.

Some felt vibrations, and heard sounds – loud ringing or a high-pitch chirping similar to crickets or cicadas. Others heard the grinding noise. Some victims awoke with ringing in their ears and fumbled for their alarm clocks, only to discover the ringing stopped when they moved away from their beds.

The attacks seemed to come at night. Several victims reported they came in minute-long bursts.
Yet others heard nothing, felt nothing. Later, their symptoms came.

The scope keeps widening. On Tuesday, the state department disclosed that doctors had confirmed another two cases, bringing the total American victims to 21. Some have mild traumatic brain injury, known as a concussion, and others permanent hearing loss.

Even the potential motive is unclear. Investigators are at a loss to explain why Canadians were harmed, too, including some who reported nosebleeds. Fewer than 10 Canadian diplomatic households in Cuba were affected, a Canadian official said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2017 15:05 GMT
#174656
Bannon, Flynn and Kushner all meeting with a crown prince, who then set up communications with Russian officials. This is some low rent spy novel stuff. Like, they didn’t even have a secret meeting place.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 14 2017 15:11 GMT
#174657
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 14 2017 15:11 GMT
#174658
Let's consider that Marx wrote basically nothing about culture. The most popular brands of feminism, anti-racism, and LGBTQIA rights are all liberal movements, merely seeking equal status as workers, consumers, and homeowners. Let's consider that people who use the term "cultural Marxism" have read little of Marx, no Adorno, no Horkheimer, and no Foucault.

Franks and Gauls, Normans and Anglo-Saxons, kings and peoples. Who is the subject of history in these conquests and migrations? If you want to talk about "culture war" then let's consider that as Foucault pointed out:

"History and public right in fact go hand in hand … If you look at how history, and the pedagogy of history, was actually taught until well after the eighteenth century and even in the twentieth, you will find that it is public right that you are being told about."

Is it any wonder that in a liberal democracy (republic), wherein public right and sovereign power are vested in "the people," that counter-narratives of the "oppressed" that talk about "power" would gain so much traction?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 14 2017 15:11 GMT
#174659
On September 14 2017 23:50 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2017 21:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 14 2017 08:55 Danglars wrote:
On September 14 2017 08:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 14 2017 08:29 Danglars wrote:
On September 14 2017 06:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 14 2017 05:51 xDaunt wrote:
On September 14 2017 05:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
So in theory, you're fine with terms like cultural Randism if a libertarian school of thought achieved influence on a similar level to the Frankfurt School?

Why not? If there's a connection to Rand, I don't see the problem.


I'm honestly not intimately familiar with her works, but I've had the impression that she, like Marx, is more about economy than culture, and that it'd be a pretty meaningless term. Honestly kind of secondary though, my main argument against the term is more along the lines of;

What if the term is hardly ever used, but then gains popularity following a leftist timothy mcweigh who attacks and kills 100 boyscouts during the 2018 boyscout Jamboree where he prior to attacking posts an online manifesto where he specifies that he targeted those boyscouts because they were likely to be future representatives of Cultural Randism, a term that is consistently used to denigrate the political opponents of leftist timothy mcweigh. That's actually a pretty perfect parallel. And I can guarantee that I'd avoid the term if this is how it came to achieve notoriety.

I never heard the term in context of Breivik. I heard it as a critique of the ideology underpinning certain aspects of extreme political correctness and parts of leftist political ideology in the social/societal realm. I read around, reviewed chapters of foundational Marxist/Leninist works, and it's a pretty easy tie-in applying broad themes from the Marxist vision of economic thought to culture. It's all the power struggle of cultural forces, everything is victim/oppressor relationship ... you've just switched what and who is proletariat and bourgeoisie. The solution is undermining the existing system (incrementalist variant) and revolution.

Now, if some Norwegian comes over and says the true history of the term is a nutty terrorist from Norway, I'm going to view you with incredulity. Marxist thought and ideology is far older than that dude. The works are widely known. Any semi intelligent man or woman can put the two and two together for societal critique. The ideas of Marx & Engels translated into culture wars. I see a central truth to the characterization. I don't personally use it that often, not because of one nut, but because evangelical preachers and politicians have misused it to encompass any cultural decay in society. Is your story of acquaintance with the term your unique path, the understanding of most Norwegians, or straight Scandinavian?


https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=cultural marxism

That one really significant peak is where breivik's manifesto is posted. To be fair, it was used slightly more than I expected before that (I had never heard the term pre-breivik though), but this is when it became mainstream. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=NO&q=cultural marxism is the trend for Norway, as you can see, it's virtually non-existent pre-breivik. I definitely think most Norwegians share my understanding of the phrase.

And I heard it as both the conspiracy theory (and silly conservative bugaboo) and relating Marxist theories to culture throughout the 2000s. As an example, here's Andrew Breitbart going off on it before the attack+ Show Spoiler +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8CpON8VrRU&t=22m38s


SPLC references the 1998 William Lind speech
It has taken over both political parties and is enforced by many laws and government regulations. It almost totally controls the most powerful element in our culture, the entertainment industry. It dominates both public and higher education. ... It has even captured the clergy in many Christian churches.

That writeup was published in 2003 and cited several persons and organizations.

Buchanan, Nixon & Reagan adviser/speechwriter/etc and Republican presidential candidate, was probably my first exposure. His famous culture war speech (Republican National Convention 1992) and all the books and TV appearances. Explicit in his book and speeches.

So suffice it to say, the term's been around. The last post I commented on its historical accuracy, and I'll restate here it does have a connotation of communist conspiracy if used indiscriminately.


Thanks for this. I'll internalize the information.


Danglars need a citation on the passages from "foundational Marxist/Leninist" works where it's a short hop from capitalist exploitation to "safe spaces" and trans bathrooms.

The good old "take it hyperliterally when it benefits me, only see parallels and similarities when it undermines you." Your engagement is with buzzwords and you'll need to show you actually want to examine the connection with more than single-sentence-throwaways.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 14 2017 15:12 GMT
#174660
On September 14 2017 23:55 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +

Former national security adviser Susan Rice privately told House investigators that she unmasked the identities of senior Trump officials to understand why the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates was in New York late last year, multiple sources told CNN.

The New York meeting preceded a separate effort by the UAE to facilitate a back-channel communication between Russia and the incoming Trump White House.

The crown prince, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan, arrived in New York last December in the transition period before Trump was sworn into office for a meeting with several top Trump officials, including Michael Flynn, the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and his top strategist Steve Bannon, sources said.

...

The Washington Post initially reported in April that the UAE brokered a pre-inauguration meeting between the founder of the security firm Blackwater, Erik Prince, who is a close Trump ally, and an associate of Vladimir Putin's in the Seychelles Islands. The purpose of the meeting was part of an effort by the UAE to persuade Russia to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, according to the Post.

And it occured shortly after Bannon, Flynn and Kushner also met in Trump Tower with Zayed, whom the Post said helped arrange the Seychelles meeting with Russia government officials to set up the private discussions with the Trump team.


www.cnn.com


Sure does beg the question: Why did they go through the UAE? What would motivate them to do that?
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