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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8386

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
August 13 2017 01:28 GMT
#167701
On August 13 2017 10:10 Plansix wrote:
We live in interesting times.

Not to mention embarrassing and terrifying.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
August 13 2017 01:43 GMT
#167702
I look forward to the play some future Shakespeare makes a couple thousand years after we recover from nuclear winter
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 13 2017 01:50 GMT
#167703


This is the easiest question. Just denounce them. But Trump is a racist.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 01:52:04
August 13 2017 01:51 GMT
#167704
The problem isn't necessarily that he is a racist (more of a separate problem). He just doesn't want to discourage people from voting for and supporting him.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 13 2017 01:53 GMT
#167705
And someone like that should never be president. But here we are. My money is on Sessions doing jack shit.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
August 13 2017 01:53 GMT
#167706
He always does this, he has issues saying bad things about people who say nice things about him.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 01:59:42
August 13 2017 01:58 GMT
#167707
He wouldn't throw David Duke under the bus I doubt he starts dealing with these nazis like a man. In fact there's video of Duke at the rally talking about how it was for Trump.

LiquidDota Staff
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 02:02:14
August 13 2017 02:00 GMT
#167708
If only someone has warned us. If only someone had said something.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 13 2017 02:06 GMT
#167709


She isn't wrong. They didn't even bother to wear hoods.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 02:44:58
August 13 2017 02:13 GMT
#167710
On August 13 2017 11:06 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/eveewing/status/896348754550370306

She isn't wrong. They didn't even bother to wear hoods.


There's at least 1 twitter account out there identifying them and spreading their identities and it's fabulous.



Sally Yates pretends to be Doctor J, doing some masterful dunking.
LiquidDota Staff
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 02:59:14
August 13 2017 02:30 GMT
#167711


Edit: clearly the Muslim ban is keeping us safe daily.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 03:24:51
August 13 2017 03:22 GMT
#167712
Some interesting things..

That driver is a registered republican, i wonder how T_D is spinning that one, since it was clearly democrats trying to frame thoser fuckers.

Second, and it just absolutely baffles me (and makes me lose the last shred of respect towards the US federal institutions):

James Alex Fields, Jr. was booked and charged with one count of second-degree murder, three counts of malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit-and-run, Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Washington Post. Fields is 20 years old.


This actually pisses me off.

What pisses off even more is the fact that by US law he actually isn't a terrorist. Or rather, it depends on which definition of terror you want to use. Under the definition of the DoD and FEMA, he's a terrorist. Under the definition of the US Code, he's not.

Why does this come off as intentional?

edit: jeez, Ted Cruz and Rubio are calling it terrorism... Yet uncle Trump is too fucking retarded to even condemn white supremacists, framing everyone as equally guilty there.
On track to MA1950A.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8982 Posts
August 13 2017 03:25 GMT
#167713
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 03:32:17
August 13 2017 03:29 GMT
#167714
On August 13 2017 12:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.


That's the definition for mass murder/shooting, not terrorism.

edit: as an example:

2002 Los Angeles International Airport shooting: Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport. The FBI concluded this was terrorism, though they did not find evidence linking Hadayet to a terrorist group.
On track to MA1950A.
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
August 13 2017 03:32 GMT
#167715
On August 13 2017 12:22 m4ini wrote:
Some interesting things..

That driver is a registered republican, i wonder how T_D is spinning that one, since it was clearly democrats trying to frame thoser fuckers.

Second, and it just absolutely baffles me (and makes me lose the last shred of respect towards the US federal institutions):

Show nested quote +
James Alex Fields, Jr. was booked and charged with one count of second-degree murder, three counts of malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit-and-run, Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Washington Post. Fields is 20 years old.


This actually pisses me off.

What pisses off even more is the fact that by US law he actually isn't a terrorist. Or rather, it depends on which definition of terror you want to use. Under the definition of the DoD and FEMA, he's a terrorist. Under the definition of the US Code, he's not.

Why does this come off as intentional?

edit: jeez, Ted Cruz and Rubio are calling it terrorism... Yet uncle Trump is too fucking retarded to even condemn white supremacists, framing everyone as equally guilty there.


The first time in my life I agree with Ted Cruz and hope he gets his way.



Drag this POS and fire him out of a canon. Didn't Trump want to kill terrorists families? Is he going to execute this dude's family?
LiquidDota Staff
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8982 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 03:37:31
August 13 2017 03:33 GMT
#167716
On August 13 2017 12:29 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2017 12:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.


That's the definition for mass murder, not terrorism.

Sandy Hook was terrorism/mass murder
Colorado theater shooting was terrorism/mass murder
Charleston church shooting was terrorism/mass murder.

You can decide which was which. But they were all terrorism in nature. The motive needs to be known, which we know was hate based. Or maybe he was fueled up on meth and redbull and claims temporary insanity.

I'm calling it murder because in this country, there's a body count number that needs to be reached (don't really know what that number is), and the motive has to be based on something that can be tied rather closely to terrorism.

EDIT: And nationality can't be immediately American. They'll dawdle on calling it terrorism because it was an American.

edit: as an example:
2002 Los Angeles International Airport shooting: Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport. The FBI concluded this was terrorism, though they did not find evidence linking Hadayet to a terrorist group.

You answered your own question. Nationality matters as well, of course.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 03:42:00
August 13 2017 03:37 GMT
#167717
On August 13 2017 12:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2017 12:29 m4ini wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.


That's the definition for mass murder, not terrorism.

Sandy Hook was terrorism/mass murder
Colorado theater shooting was terrorism/mass murder
Charleston church shooting was terrorism/mass murder.

You can decide which was which. But they were all terrorism in nature. The motive needs to be known, which we know was hate based. Or maybe he was fueled up on meth and redbull and claims temporary insanity.

I'm calling it murder because in this country, there's a body count number that needs to be reached (don't really know what that number is), and the motive has to be based on something that can be tied rather closely to terrorism.


Sandy Hook was terrorism AND mass murder. Charleston was terrorism AND mass murder.

That's really not a hard concept. To be a mass murder/mass shooting, 5 bodies are required. Not for terrorism. A terrorist attack can happen with zero bodies. As happened multiple times in the US already in the last decade. You're mistaken, i literally just went through the relevant US code articles. Here, that's what terrorism in the US is.

Title 22, Chapter 38 of the United States Code (regarding the Department of State) contains a definition of terrorism in its requirement that annual country reports on terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. It reads:

[T]he term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.[60]

Title 18 of the United States Code (regarding criminal acts and criminal procedure) defines international terrorism as:

(1) [T]he term 'international terrorism' means activities that —

(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended —
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum".[61]


Yeah, it's off wiki.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).


The U.S. Department of Defense recently changed its definition of terrorism. Per Joint Pub 3-07.2, Antiterrorism, (24 November 2010), the Department of Defense defines it as "the unlawful use of violence or threat of violence to instill fear and coerce governments or societies. Terrorism is often motivated by religious, political, or other ideological beliefs and committed in the pursuit of goals that are usually political."

The new definition distinguishes between motivations for terrorism (religion, ideology, etc.) and goals of terrorism ("usually political"). This is in contrast to the previous definition which stated that the goals could be religious in nature.



And so forth, there's more, but not a single one is tied to a bodycount.

----------

You answered your own question. Nationality matters as well, of course.


Man, just stop.

2010 West Memphis police shootings: Two West Memphis police officers were killed by a father and son who supported the sovereign citizen movement during a traffic stop. The suspects were later killed by other officers.


Considered terror, white people.

Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting: Robert L. Dear, armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire at a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic. Two civilians and one police officer were killed, and four civilians and five police officers were wounded before the suspect surrendered. Dear told police "No more baby parts" after being taken into custody.


Also terror, also white guy, also less than 5 bodies.

edit2:

And here the definition of a mass shooting.

A mass shooting is an incident involving multiple victims of firearms-related violence. The United States' Congressional Research Service acknowledges that there is not a broadly accepted definition, and defines a "public mass shooting" as one in which four or more people selected indiscriminately, not including the perpetrator, are killed, echoing the FBI definition of the term "mass murder". Another unofficial definition of a mass shooting is an event involving the shooting (not necessarily resulting in death) of four or more people with no cooling-off period.
On track to MA1950A.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8982 Posts
August 13 2017 03:42 GMT
#167718
On August 13 2017 12:37 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2017 12:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:29 m4ini wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.


That's the definition for mass murder, not terrorism.

Sandy Hook was terrorism/mass murder
Colorado theater shooting was terrorism/mass murder
Charleston church shooting was terrorism/mass murder.

You can decide which was which. But they were all terrorism in nature. The motive needs to be known, which we know was hate based. Or maybe he was fueled up on meth and redbull and claims temporary insanity.

I'm calling it murder because in this country, there's a body count number that needs to be reached (don't really know what that number is), and the motive has to be based on something that can be tied rather closely to terrorism.


Sandy Hook was terrorism AND mass murder. Charleston was terrorism AND mass murder.

That's really not a hard concept. To be a mass murder/mass shooting, 5 bodies are required. Not for terrorism. A terrorist attack can happen with zero bodies. As happened multiple times in the US already in the last decade. You're mistaken, i literally just went through the relevant US code articles. Here, that's what terrorism in the US is.

Show nested quote +
Title 22, Chapter 38 of the United States Code (regarding the Department of State) contains a definition of terrorism in its requirement that annual country reports on terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. It reads:

[T]he term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.[60]

Title 18 of the United States Code (regarding criminal acts and criminal procedure) defines international terrorism as:

(1) [T]he term 'international terrorism' means activities that —

(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended —
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum".[61]


Yeah, it's off wiki.

Show nested quote +
The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).


Show nested quote +
The U.S. Department of Defense recently changed its definition of terrorism. Per Joint Pub 3-07.2, Antiterrorism, (24 November 2010), the Department of Defense defines it as "the unlawful use of violence or threat of violence to instill fear and coerce governments or societies. Terrorism is often motivated by religious, political, or other ideological beliefs and committed in the pursuit of goals that are usually political."

The new definition distinguishes between motivations for terrorism (religion, ideology, etc.) and goals of terrorism ("usually political"). This is in contrast to the previous definition which stated that the goals could be religious in nature.



And so forth, there's more, but not a single one is tied to a bodycount.

My argument, failingly being presented, is that in my opinion, if you look at the new definition of terrorism as the politicians apply it, this isn't terrorism. Just a mentally unstable individual who wanted to cause mayhem at a rally. Sure, it can meet the literal definitions, but they won't call it that. Optics or something I guess.

The examples I gave above left no room for anyone to dawdle on what it was called. They term those examples terrorism because of the amount of people killed, not because of the motives behind them (exception being the church. That was explicitly stated by the perpetrator).
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-13 03:47:25
August 13 2017 03:46 GMT
#167719
On August 13 2017 12:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2017 12:37 m4ini wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:29 m4ini wrote:
On August 13 2017 12:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wait for his statement on why he did it to be released, if it is at all.

He's a terrorist, but in the US, he didn't kill enough. In order for people in the US to be considered a terrorist, body count has to exceed 5.


That's the definition for mass murder, not terrorism.

Sandy Hook was terrorism/mass murder
Colorado theater shooting was terrorism/mass murder
Charleston church shooting was terrorism/mass murder.

You can decide which was which. But they were all terrorism in nature. The motive needs to be known, which we know was hate based. Or maybe he was fueled up on meth and redbull and claims temporary insanity.

I'm calling it murder because in this country, there's a body count number that needs to be reached (don't really know what that number is), and the motive has to be based on something that can be tied rather closely to terrorism.


Sandy Hook was terrorism AND mass murder. Charleston was terrorism AND mass murder.

That's really not a hard concept. To be a mass murder/mass shooting, 5 bodies are required. Not for terrorism. A terrorist attack can happen with zero bodies. As happened multiple times in the US already in the last decade. You're mistaken, i literally just went through the relevant US code articles. Here, that's what terrorism in the US is.

Title 22, Chapter 38 of the United States Code (regarding the Department of State) contains a definition of terrorism in its requirement that annual country reports on terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. It reads:

[T]he term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.[60]

Title 18 of the United States Code (regarding criminal acts and criminal procedure) defines international terrorism as:

(1) [T]he term 'international terrorism' means activities that —

(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended —
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum".[61]


Yeah, it's off wiki.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).


The U.S. Department of Defense recently changed its definition of terrorism. Per Joint Pub 3-07.2, Antiterrorism, (24 November 2010), the Department of Defense defines it as "the unlawful use of violence or threat of violence to instill fear and coerce governments or societies. Terrorism is often motivated by religious, political, or other ideological beliefs and committed in the pursuit of goals that are usually political."

The new definition distinguishes between motivations for terrorism (religion, ideology, etc.) and goals of terrorism ("usually political"). This is in contrast to the previous definition which stated that the goals could be religious in nature.



And so forth, there's more, but not a single one is tied to a bodycount.

My argument, failingly being presented, is that in my opinion, if you look at the new definition of terrorism as the politicians apply it, this isn't terrorism. Just a mentally unstable individual who wanted to cause mayhem at a rally. Sure, it can meet the literal definitions, but they won't call it that. Optics or something I guess.

The examples I gave above left no room for anyone to dawdle on what it was called. They term those examples terrorism because of the amount of people killed, not because of the motives behind them (exception being the church. That was explicitly stated by the perpetrator).


See the edits.

You're entitled to your opinion, but so am i: this was terrorism. Politically motivated attack on "opposition" (counter protesters).

There's a big problem here. They do call similar attacks terror (edit: "they" being politicians and media). They did call attacks on police officers terror. They did not call this here terror. If you don't see a disconnect there, i don't know.

Hell, Cruz and Rubio are calling this terror.
On track to MA1950A.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8982 Posts
August 13 2017 03:47 GMT
#167720
Check your PMs.
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