In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote: Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from.
It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing.
probably more like 10x safer; as a guess based on my knowledge of the relevant stats.
Depends on what you compare. Detroit is barely safer than some countries which are currently engaging in open civil war, so there is that. I mean, we wouldn't want to set the bar for "safety" too high after all. Also, if we can just strawman arguments we don't really have to properly engage in an honest discussion and can instead go "hurrr shitty white racists".
Have you ever been to Detroit, and if not, do you think it'd make sense for me to comment on the safety of Copenhagen based purely on third-person data that mostly references the infamous ghetto list? Detroit has parts that are dangerous, that much is true, but "open civil war" hyperbole is simply unfounded. I say this as the son of the guy who signs off on literally every dead body found in Wayne County.
I have been to Detroit. I wasn't exactly a fan of the place, but admittedly I was only there for a 2-day conference. I completely fail to see the relevance though, because anecdotal evidence is shit as we all know. And this:
On August 09 2017 00:55 farvacola wrote: I say this as the son of the guy who signs off on literally every dead body found in Wayne County.
has got to be the least convincing appeal to authority I've ever encountered.
You are obviously welcome to comment all you'd like on the safety of Copenhagen (or any other Danish city). I'm going to call bullshit on any unfounded claim you make though.
Now to the numbers. Detroit currently has an overall homicide rate of 43.5 wiki. Compare that to the homicide rates on the list previously provided (click here for your convenience). You'll notice that if Detroit was a country it would place 5th in the world for homicides (which by definition excludes armed conflict casualties - which was exactly why I prefaced my statement with "depends on what you compare". And it wasn't my choice of comparison, but yours)
Further, my statement was made in connection with someone using US ghettos (so actually the data we have for Detroit is likely painting a nicer picture than if we restricted purely to the ghetto) as a benchmark for "safety". Regardless of how you are going to frame those numbers the only reasonable conclusion is that US ghettos aren't exactly a paragon for "safety" and thus is a very low bar to set.
Special reminder that Breitbart either doesn't know what reporting is, or doesn't care. They could be staffed by some of the dimmest people known to humanity. Do they think reporters get scoops through osmosis?
If the other places are 10 times safer then you can generally assume that it is indeed a low bar to set, and that's why they've cleared it so easily.
Furthermore the relevance of US ghettos isn't in that they are a good comparison point, it's in that the propaganda that comes with painting european countries as hell on earth because of immigration is designed for a target audience who lives in the country that contains those ghettos and presumably feels safe enough despite their existence.
Special reminder that Breitbart either doesn't know what reporting is, or doesn't care. They could be staffed by some of the dimmest people known to humanity. Do they think reporters get scoops through osmosis?
It fits in the 'reporters are the enemy of the people' narrative. Damn bastards snooping around getting information, creating doubt on the capabilities of Glorious Leader
Special reminder that Breitbart either doesn't know what reporting is, or doesn't care. They could be staffed by some of the dimmest people known to humanity. Do they think reporters get scoops through osmosis?
It truly is "highly problematic" that journalists are actively looking for sources! This is some scary shit. Next thing you know they will be writing articles too! The horror!
We are not in the 1960-1980 era of US cities where they were all in massive recessions due to white flight. Plagued by urban blight and high crime. Most US cities have pockets of economically depressed areas with higher crime. But none of them are the hellscapes people seem to make them out to be.
On August 09 2017 02:55 Ghostcom wrote: Ah yes, smoking is about 100 times safer than injecting crack-cocaine through your eyeball (probably a low estimate tbh). Smoking is obviously fine.
It doesn't have a 100% fatality rate, just like Detroit. Humans live there and its fine. TL members live there and its fine. There are shitty parts of Boston too, but we manage to not die while traveling through them on the red line. Nothing is at "civil war" level of violence.
On August 09 2017 02:55 Ghostcom wrote: Ah yes, smoking is about 100 times safer than injecting crack-cocaine through your eyeball (probably a low estimate tbh). Smoking is obviously fine.
EDIT: Point is: Don't chose a stupid baseline for the intent of comparison.
What kind of reaction is that? Completely out of nowhere.
On August 09 2017 02:55 Ghostcom wrote: Ah yes, smoking is about 100 times safer than injecting crack-cocaine through your eyeball (probably a low estimate tbh). Smoking is obviously fine.
EDIT: Point is: Don't chose a stupid baseline for the intent of comparison.
What kind of reaction is that? Completely out of nowhere.
Really not sure what you find confusing.
Allow me to elaborate:
Someone said that his mother was worried about certain areas of Sweden, but that these areas were likely 100 times safer than US ghettos (and thus implicitly not actually dangerous). It was corrected to about 10 times safer (which seems about right when looking at the numbers). It was then pointed out that the benchmark was shit (and thus little was to be gained from the comparison - and certainly not that these areas in Sweden are "safe" (frankly I wouldn't mind walking in most of those areas in Sweden although I would think twice before recording anything with a camera)). The above example should quite clearly illustrate why it matters which benchmark we use for what we can reasonably imply.
On August 09 2017 02:55 Ghostcom wrote: Ah yes, smoking is about 100 times safer than injecting crack-cocaine through your eyeball (probably a low estimate tbh). Smoking is obviously fine.
EDIT: Point is: Don't chose a stupid baseline for the intent of comparison.
What kind of reaction is that? Completely out of nowhere.
Really not sure what you find confusing.
Do you honestly not understand why people use US ghettos as comparison when discussing european countries being painted as hellholes by publications targeted at a far right american audience? The baseline isn't stupid, it's entirely logical given the context. The audience is supposed to marvel at the smoking habits of other countries while their country experiences crack-cocaine through their eyeball and things are still fine.
On August 09 2017 02:55 Ghostcom wrote: Ah yes, smoking is about 100 times safer than injecting crack-cocaine through your eyeball (probably a low estimate tbh). Smoking is obviously fine.
EDIT: Point is: Don't chose a stupid baseline for the intent of comparison.
What kind of reaction is that? Completely out of nowhere.
Really not sure what you find confusing.
Do you honestly not understand why people use US ghettos as comparison when discussing european countries being painted as hellholes by publications targeted at a far right american audience? The baseline isn't stupid, it's entirely logical given the context. The audience is supposed to marvel at the smoking habits of other countries while their country experiences crack-cocaine through their eyeball and things are still fine.
I think the problem here is you think we are talking about Breitbart, when we are in fact talking about a TL poster using US ghettos as an example for why his mother needn't worry.
Do you honestly not understand that telling someone not to worry about them smoking because "hey, at least I'm not shooting crack-cocaine through my eyeball" doesn't really make sense?
On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote: Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
We are definitely talking about Breitbart. Yurie's implication was obviously that her mother's fear wasn't exactly rational or based on the reality of said neighborhoods. He's not advocating that she starts smoking or taking risks, he's saying that she has an exaggerated view of the risk in question.
On August 09 2017 03:31 Godwrath wrote: I didn't know Moohdo was a consumer of Breitbart's fabrications. I think you are underestimating how many people actually believe that's true.
He isn’t. The myth that the EU is some immigration hellscape has escaped into the public discourse and is now a common misconception for our entire country. Immigrants are ruining parts of the EU and this is a reason to change our immigration laws in the US to be “merit based”.
On August 09 2017 03:31 Godwrath wrote: I didn't know Moohdo was a consumer of Breitbart's fabrications. I think you are underestimating how many people actually believe that's true.
I certainly believe a ton of people fall for this bullshit, especially on internet. I didn't mean to imply that it's fringe, just that it is a far right talking point.
Not sure where Mohdoo comes in though, must have missed a post (edit: ty).
This is still an excellent video that people should generally watch:
On August 09 2017 03:31 Godwrath wrote: I didn't know Moohdo was a consumer of Breitbart's fabrications. I think you are underestimating how many people actually believe that's true.
He isn’t. The myth that the EU is some immigration hellscape has escaped into the public discourse and is now a common misconception for our entire country. Immigrants are ruining parts of the EU and this is a reason to change our immigration laws in the US to be “merit based”.
Yeah as mostly a lurker, I know he is not, i was being sarcastic in an attempt to widen the perception that only people who read Breitbart believe this is true about Germany or Sweden.
Edit - Nebuchad, its two post above the one you quoted from Simberto.
On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote: Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
We are definitely talking about Breitbart. Yurie's implication was obviously that her mother's fear wasn't exactly rational or based on the reality of said neighborhoods
The reality being that the Swedish areas are safer than US ghettos (and thus implied that they are safe).
On August 09 2017 03:27 Nebuchad wrote: He's not advocating that she starts smoking or taking risks, he's saying that she has an exaggerated view of the risk in question.
This sentence tells me that we are talking about two very different things and that you've misunderstood my example. I never claimed Yurie's mother should take more risks or start smoking and I'm frankly befuddled by how you could ever arrive to that interpretation. I said that his argument (that her fear was irrational because the Swedish areas were safer than US ghettos) was similar to arguing that smoking is fine because it's not as dangerous as injecting crack-cocaine.
EDIT: As you have hopefully noticed from some of the prior posts, I also think her fear is irrational.
As someone who lives in Chicago, I concur that the depictions of Chicago as a warzone are horribly inaccurate for most of the city. If you look at a Chicago homicide map, literally something like 97% of homicides are on the South or West sides. For anyone on TL visiting, you won't be going to those areas and it's a safe as Copenhagen or any other city you consider safe. I presume the same is true for Detroit.
On a different topic...
Google on Monday fired the employee who wrote an internal memo suggesting men are better suited for tech jobs than women, escalating a debate over free speech at the company.
Google Chief Executive Sundar Pichai said in an email to his staff that the employee’s memo violated company policy. Google, part of Alphabet Inc., didn’t publicly name the memo’s author.
Software engineer James Damore, who said in an email that he wrote the memo and was fired for it, said he was considering legal action against Google for firing him after he complained to federal labor officials about executives’ alleged efforts to silence him.
Mr. Damore published an internal memo last week that criticized Google’s efforts to increase diversity at the company, arguing the program discriminated against some employees. He said men were generally better at engineering jobs than women and a liberal bias among executives and many employees made it difficult to discuss the issue at Google.
The memo went viral inside the company, which spilled into public view when Google employees publicly criticized it and eventually leaked it to the media. The controversy posed a thorny question for one of the world’s largest companies, one that espouses free speech: How would it handle an employee who offered opinions that were, to many inside the company, offensive?
“Portions of the memo violate our code of conduct and cross the line by advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace,” Mr. Pichai said in his email. He added that the company’s code of conduct requires “each Googler to do their utmost to create a workplace culture that is free of harassment, intimidation, bias and unlawful discrimination.”
Mr. Damore said in an email that he “was fired for ‘perpetuating gender stereotypes,’ but I believe it was politically motivated.” He said he believes he has “a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which is what my document does.”
Before he was fired, several Google executives publicly criticized his memo. Mr. Damore said that prompted him to submit a formal charge to the National Labor Relations Board “about how Google’s upper management is misrepresenting and shaming me in order to silence my complaints.” In reference to his firing, he added, “It’s illegal to retaliate against a NLRB charge. I’m currently exploring all possible legal remedies.”
Mr. Damore’s firing is likely to spark a larger debate inside and outside Google about free speech. The memo received both support and disapproval from colleagues inside Google, according to news reports.
Mr. Pichai said in his Monday email: “We strongly support the right of Googlers to express themselves, and much of what was in that memo is fair to debate, regardless of whether a vast majority of Googlers disagree with it.” Mr. Pichai said he scheduled an employee town hall on Thursday to discuss the issue.
Danielle Brown, Google’s vice president for diversity and inclusion, said in a statement to employees after the memo was published online Saturday that it “advanced incorrect assumptions about gender” and is “not a viewpoint that I or this company endorses, promotes or encourages.” Google engineering executive Ari Balogh, one of Mr. Damore’s managers, wrote that the memo “troubled me deeply” because it suggested “most women, or men, feel or act a certain way. That is stereotyping, and it is harmful.”
The memo also drew condemnation from outside Google. Facebook Inc. Chief Operating Officer Sheryl Sandberg posted a story on Facebook that said differences between men and women were exaggerated. “Inequality in tech isn’t due to gender differences. It’s due to cultural stereotypes that persist. We all need to do more,” she wrote.
The controversy comes against a backdrop of broader debates about diversity in the tech industry, which employs a majority of white or Asian men, particularly in technical and leadership roles. A string of sexual-harassment scandals has also plagued some tech companies and investment firms over the past year.
Google, meanwhile, is facing a Labor Department investigation into whether it compensates men and women differently. Last month, an administrative law judge ruled Google had to turn over some data to the Labor Department as part of the probe, which began as a routine audit into a federal contractor. Google sells advertising and cloud services to the federal government. During the case, a Labor Department official testified that initial evidence showed Google systematically pays women less than men.
Google denies the allegation, saying its internal analyses have shown no pay gap among Alphabet’s nearly 76,000 employees. The Labor Department hasn’t formally charged Google with any wrongdoing.
Google said in its annual diversity report in June that 31% of its employees are women, unchanged from a year earlier. The percentage of black employees also was unchanged at 2%, and the number of Hispanic workers increased to 4% from 3%. Most Google workers are white and Asian men.
I'm curious on your guys' thoughts on this firing. Is this a step too far on Google part, or do you guys feel it's justified? I mean from an ethical perspective, not a legal perspective.
EPT
