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United States42780 Posts
On July 26 2017 12:35 xDaunt wrote:
I just provided a nice source showing how Greek, Roman, and Christian thought all helped shape modern Western concepts of law, rights, and liberties. Why the fuck are you people still arguing about it? It's one thing to not know due to poor education. It's another to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. We're reaching flat earth society levels of willful ignorance. This thread has hit some lows before, but this might be a new record.
Would that be your link to the wikipedia page for Natural Law? If so, 1/5, signs of improvement but still unacceptable.
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On July 26 2017 12:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:24 IgnE wrote:
seriously kwark, if you think anyone is arguing that "aristotle caused jefferson" then you are as impoverished a thinker as P6. Are you really going to lean into the quote from Jefferson in 1825 as proof of something? 15 years after he was president and the only person left to say he was full of himself was his buddy John Adams? I understand the worship of Jefferson, but can we not take his bragging as anything but what it was. He was one of 5 people who wrote that thing.
Are you really going to deny a link between Aristotle and almost every single major Western thinker since him? How dim are you?
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On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there?
So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another.
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On July 26 2017 12:35 xDaunt wrote:
I just provided a nice source showing how Greek, Roman, and Christian thought all helped shape modern Western concepts of law, rights, and liberties. Why the fuck are you people still arguing about it? It's one thing to not know due to poor education. It's another to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. We're reaching flat earth society levels of willful ignorance. This thread has hit some lows before, but this might be a new record.
Not one is disputing those facts. You know what else influenced western civilization? The crusades. And the Byzantines. And so many other things.
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On July 26 2017 12:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:35 xDaunt wrote:
I just provided a nice source showing how Greek, Roman, and Christian thought all helped shape modern Western concepts of law, rights, and liberties. Why the fuck are you people still arguing about it? It's one thing to not know due to poor education. It's another to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. We're reaching flat earth society levels of willful ignorance. This thread has hit some lows before, but this might be a new record. Would that be your link to the wikipedia page for Natural Law? If so, 1/5, signs of improvement but still unacceptable.
I have neither the time nor interest to give you a classical education. This is the best that anyone can reasonably be expected to do to show you how Western culture is rooted classical and Christian concepts. I don't even really care whether you read it. But let's stop pretending that you have anything resembling a reasonable basis to continue your absurd line of posts.
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On July 26 2017 12:31 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 26 2017 12:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I'm still waiting for this all to be tied back to concerns about present day culture clashes, but I may be left waiting for a while. I brought it up. I'm waiting as well. I just want to know what's under attack by regressive leftists. Christ, you people are lazy. Start with Igne's post here and read the responses to it and the article that he's referencing.
Oh my god it's the word police argument from last week.
Thank you for dredging that up.
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On July 26 2017 12:42 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there? So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another.
I already addressed this issue in detail here.
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United States42780 Posts
On July 26 2017 12:41 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:32 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2017 12:24 IgnE wrote:
seriously kwark, if you think anyone is arguing that "aristotle caused jefferson" then you are as impoverished a thinker as P6. Are you really going to lean into the quote from Jefferson in 1825 as proof of something? 15 years after he was president and the only person left to say he was full of himself was his buddy John Adams? I understand the worship of Jefferson, but can we not take his bragging as anything but what it was. He was one of 5 people who wrote that thing. Are you really going to deny a link between Aristotle and almost every single major Western thinker since him? How dim are you?
Do you not think that perhaps they could have gotten there without him?
Consider the following.
Firstly, if they could not have gotten there had Aristotle's books been lost then there must logically be huge untapped realms of philosophy which have lain undiscovered since the books inspiring them were lost. Given the quantity of the totality of human thought that was never written down, never survived, never copied or never read, it seems near impossible that we have touched the surface of philosophy. Unless, of course, multiple people can have similar ideas.
Secondly, consider Aquinas' premise that a law that an unjust law (in the eyes of the one bound by it) is no law at all. Do you need Aristotle to get to that point? Because it's a point people hear a lot. Parents especially, in regard to bedtimes and the like.
History inevitably produces natural law because people don't like the alternative.
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United States42780 Posts
On July 26 2017 12:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:38 KwarK wrote:On July 26 2017 12:35 xDaunt wrote:
I just provided a nice source showing how Greek, Roman, and Christian thought all helped shape modern Western concepts of law, rights, and liberties. Why the fuck are you people still arguing about it? It's one thing to not know due to poor education. It's another to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. We're reaching flat earth society levels of willful ignorance. This thread has hit some lows before, but this might be a new record. Would that be your link to the wikipedia page for Natural Law? If so, 1/5, signs of improvement but still unacceptable. I have neither the time nor interest to give you a classical education.
Nor the capacity. But I already have one, thanks.
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On July 26 2017 12:41 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:32 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2017 12:24 IgnE wrote:
seriously kwark, if you think anyone is arguing that "aristotle caused jefferson" then you are as impoverished a thinker as P6. Are you really going to lean into the quote from Jefferson in 1825 as proof of something? 15 years after he was president and the only person left to say he was full of himself was his buddy John Adams? I understand the worship of Jefferson, but can we not take his bragging as anything but what it was. He was one of 5 people who wrote that thing. Are you really going to deny a link between Aristotle and almost every single major Western thinker since him? How dim are you?
We are just talking past each other at this point. In the core discussion of the dog whistle phrase "western culture", I find the constant calls back to the myth of Greek democracy. I don't dispute Aristotle's impact on western thought. But he is the refuge of people trying to link all of ancient Greece to US democracy. And that is a reductive view of ancient Greece. If people want to cite Aristotle, cite him directly, not Greece.
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On July 26 2017 12:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:42 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there? So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another. I already addressed this issue in detail here.
That reply doesn't really mention if you find anything unsavory or improveable about Western culture?
It just kind of says "well, some parts of Western culture changed because of Western culture" or perhaps "some parts are not uniquely Western or were born from other cultures and then changed because of Western thinking and therefore are not really part of Western culture" which is an odd distinction...and doesn't really answer if you think Western culture has any negative points, regardless.
It does make me understand a bit better why you believe warring upon or diluting Western culture is fundamentally bad, though, because you really do seem to think it's achieved basic perfection.
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I would argue that the Phoenician's had more to do with western civilization than anyone else. They started colonialism and useing trade to empower themselves at the expense of others. Carthage, Rome, Messalia and others show an Imperialism through assimilation and colonialism birth more then anything. Greece had freedom but lacked the ability to be free. Rome showed that you didn't need to "rule" over others to really rule them. the fall of Rome brought the Renaissance and the Mongolian/Islamic isolation solidified the culture in the euro peninsula.
But even all these years later Western civilization is more about trade and imperialism than anything else and that comes from the Phoenicians.
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On July 26 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:35 xDaunt wrote:
I just provided a nice source showing how Greek, Roman, and Christian thought all helped shape modern Western concepts of law, rights, and liberties. Why the fuck are you people still arguing about it? It's one thing to not know due to poor education. It's another to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. We're reaching flat earth society levels of willful ignorance. This thread has hit some lows before, but this might be a new record. Not one is disputing those facts. You know what else influenced western civilization? The crusades. And the Byzantines. And so many other things.
I think KwarK actually is though.
My education did not focus on neither the classics or philosophy, but I feel comfortable venturing to say that Aristotle and Cicero had far larger influence on Western thought than anyone in the Byzantine Empire.
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On July 26 2017 12:51 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:47 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:42 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there? So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another. I already addressed this issue in detail here. That reply doesn't really mention if you find anything unsavory or improveable about Western culture? It just kind of says "well, some parts of Western culture changed because of Western culture" or perhaps "some parts are not uniquely Western or were born from other cultures and then changed because of Western thinking and therefore are not really part of Western culture" which is an odd distinction...and doesn't really answer if you think Western culture has any negative points, regardless.
I pretty clearly acknowledged in that post that Western culture has had its moral failings (slavery being directly discussed).
But, given the discussion that we have been having today, I do have in mind something more current that deserves criticism: Western culture's emerging tradition of self-loathing. That so many people don't see the value in promoting and defending Western culture is truly abhorrent.
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On July 26 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:41 IgnE wrote:On July 26 2017 12:32 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2017 12:24 IgnE wrote:
seriously kwark, if you think anyone is arguing that "aristotle caused jefferson" then you are as impoverished a thinker as P6. Are you really going to lean into the quote from Jefferson in 1825 as proof of something? 15 years after he was president and the only person left to say he was full of himself was his buddy John Adams? I understand the worship of Jefferson, but can we not take his bragging as anything but what it was. He was one of 5 people who wrote that thing. Are you really going to deny a link between Aristotle and almost every single major Western thinker since him? How dim are you? Do you not think that perhaps they could have gotten there without him? Consider the following. Firstly, if they could not have gotten there had Aristotle's books been lost then there must logically be huge untapped realms of philosophy which have lain undiscovered since the books inspiring them were lost. Given the quantity of the totality of human thought that was never written down, never survived, never copied or never read, it seems near impossible that we have touched the surface of philosophy. Unless, of course, multiple people can have similar ideas. Secondly, consider Aquinas' premise that a law that an unjust law (in the eyes of the one bound by it) is no law at all. Do you need Aristotle to get to that point? Because it's a point people hear a lot. Parents especially, in regard to bedtimes and the like. History inevitably produces natural law because people don't like the alternative.
Kwark, you are in dangerous territory here. People love their linear, building block based history as taught to them by Civilization and text book time lines. Don't boggle their minds with the concept that there may be entire sections of history we have completely misread. That there may be been voluminous writings during the dark ages, but everyone had really shitty paper and it didn't make it. There could be entire peoples we just missed because nothing made it to modern day. That we have been wrong about history more often than we have been right.
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On July 26 2017 12:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:51 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:47 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:42 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there? So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another. I already addressed this issue in detail here. That reply doesn't really mention if you find anything unsavory or improveable about Western culture? It just kind of says "well, some parts of Western culture changed because of Western culture" or perhaps "some parts are not uniquely Western or were born from other cultures and then changed because of Western thinking and therefore are not really part of Western culture" which is an odd distinction...and doesn't really answer if you think Western culture has any negative points, regardless. I pretty clearly acknowledged in that post that Western culture has had its moral failings (slavery being directly discussed). But, given the discussion that we have been having today, I do have in mind something more current that deserves criticism: Western culture's emerging tradition of self-loathing. That so many people don't see the value in promoting and defending Western culture is truly abhorrent.
Wouldn't people back in the times of slavery have found the self-loathing equally abhorrent? Many viewed abolishing slavery as an attack on their culture, after all. The capacity for self-loathing is a necessary quality for improvement, and the loathers will always be chastised for not promoting or defending the existing culture.
We can see this writ small with Trump, who has never allowed criticism and managed to never improve.
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On July 26 2017 12:31 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 26 2017 12:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I'm still waiting for this all to be tied back to concerns about present day culture clashes, but I may be left waiting for a while. I brought it up. I'm waiting as well. I just want to know what's under attack by regressive leftists. Christ, you people are lazy. Start with Igne's post here and read the responses to it and the article that he's referencing.
So I went back and I remember this post. I skipped over it because IgnE wrote a fucking thesis. I read it this time around and it still is kind of vague on answering your question.
Western culture isn't under attack by leftists. That's an absurd claim in and of itself. The culture isn't under attack. The regressive policies that are being championed by the right are under attack. I don't buy for one second that there are people on the left screaming we need to police words because they are offending people. Instead they are advocating that we try and take into account one's preference for whatever verb they choose. You want to be called a kumquat, you're a kumquat. I don't care because it doesn't affect me.
Saying Western culture is being attacked was a can of worms to begin with and you opened it.
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On July 26 2017 13:00 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 12:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:51 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:47 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:42 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 26 2017 12:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:On July 26 2017 12:08 xDaunt wrote:
I'm seriously confused. Has anyone other than Igne and me ever taken a college-level introduction to Western philosophy course (and actually paid attention)? So is "Western culture" the concepts espoused by select Western philosophers? And when we're contrasting it, we're contrasting it with the concepts espoused by select Middle Eastern/Far East philosophers? But not the ones who rescued Aristotle's teachings, presumably. Because when you talk about "Arab/Muslim culture" you seem to be talking about "what life and the cultural milieu is currently like in Middle Eastern countries" most of the time, which seems like a poor referent for comparison with idealized version of societies. Hence why you ask things along the lines of "where would you rather live?" and talk about things being attacked. Unless I've been misinterpreting. No, culture clearly isn't limited to philosophy. It encompasses everything from the philosophical to the religious to the artistic. It is the sum of a way of life. In defining Western culture, I purposefully took a very broad approach to create a starting point for the discussion. Most aspects of culture flow downhill from values and traditions, so why not start there? So are there any aspects of Western culture you find undesirable or that could be improved? Or are the Inquisition/the Crusades/colonialism/religious monarchies, for example, not aspects of Western culture? Because your broad approach basically listed "things I like about Western culture" which seems like a poor place to start discussion about what makes cultures different and what they can learn from one another. I already addressed this issue in detail here. That reply doesn't really mention if you find anything unsavory or improveable about Western culture? It just kind of says "well, some parts of Western culture changed because of Western culture" or perhaps "some parts are not uniquely Western or were born from other cultures and then changed because of Western thinking and therefore are not really part of Western culture" which is an odd distinction...and doesn't really answer if you think Western culture has any negative points, regardless. I pretty clearly acknowledged in that post that Western culture has had its moral failings (slavery being directly discussed). But, given the discussion that we have been having today, I do have in mind something more current that deserves criticism: Western culture's emerging tradition of self-loathing. That so many people don't see the value in promoting and defending Western culture is truly abhorrent. Wouldn't people back in the times of slavery have found the self-loathing equally abhorrent?
No, because the abolitionist argument was never against Western culture itself. It was against slavery. If anything, the abolitionist arguments were rooted in Western culture. What has emerged in the past hundred years is a cultural relativism that is inherently dangerous.
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Isn't health sense of self loath of your culture's sort comings how Europe functions? I always got the impression that self loathing was a fundamental part of loving your country in Europe.
America is a garbage country right now. We suck at everything, especially admitting how much we suck. I don't hate my country or western culture.
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EPT
