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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22570 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-11 17:09:33
July 11 2017 17:06 GMT
#161081
On July 12 2017 02:04 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2017 02:01 PhoenixVoid wrote:
So what's the 4D chess strategy behind this? Bypassing the "dishonest fake news lying media" to be transparent? Being the fall guy for the entire family? Just plain stupidity?


NYT had the email and they said they would release it.

That hasn't stopped them from shout "fake news" before. And his followers would swallow it up.

Instead he, (and by proxy Manafort and Kushner) has now admitted to colluding with a foreign government to influencing the election.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:07 GMT
#161082
On July 12 2017 02:04 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2017 02:01 PhoenixVoid wrote:
So what's the 4D chess strategy behind this? Bypassing the "dishonest fake news lying media" to be transparent? Being the fall guy for the entire family? Just plain stupidity?


NYT had the email and they said they would release it.


If NYT releases some lines of text his supporters would chomp at the narrative that it is fake/made up. By tweeting it himself he verified the authenticity of it, which removes a major attack line on the emails.
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-11 17:20:22
July 11 2017 17:19 GMT
#161083
#FAKENEWS is not sustainable in the face of specific documentary evidence. Sure, the Cultists and Hannityheads will eat that up. But you can't FAKENEWS an actual document. What is DonJR supposed to say? "No, that isn't my email."
When Trump does it against CNN he does it in the context of broad generalizations and avoids specifics, especially specifics about his own statements.

Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9999 Posts
July 11 2017 17:23 GMT
#161084
On July 12 2017 02:19 Wulfey_LA wrote:
#FAKENEWS is not sustainable in the face of specific documentary evidence. Sure, the Cultists and Hannityheads will eat that up. But you can't FAKENEWS an actual document. What is DonJR supposed to say? "No, that isn't my email."
When Trump does it against CNN he does it in the context of broad generalizations and avoids specifics, especially specifics about his own statements.

https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/884821285460615168


What on Earth makes you think that?
Fake news would have worked for Trump supporters because no matter how much evidence you provide they remain Trump supporters. They will remain so in the case of this evidence, and before a few days have gone by they will be back to proclaiming that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing at all that anyone saying there is is spreading fake news.
RIP Meatloaf <3
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
July 11 2017 17:23 GMT
#161085
On July 12 2017 02:19 Wulfey_LA wrote:
#FAKENEWS is not sustainable in the face of specific documentary evidence. Sure, the Cultists and Hannityheads will eat that up. But you can't FAKENEWS an actual document. What is DonJR supposed to say? "No, that isn't my email."
When Trump does it against CNN he does it in the context of broad generalizations and avoids specifics, especially specifics about his own statements.

https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/884821285460615168

Amazing. Who's failing now? Well not the NY Times that's for sure.
Neosteel Enthusiast
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 11 2017 17:24 GMT
#161086
On July 12 2017 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2017 02:04 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On July 12 2017 02:01 PhoenixVoid wrote:
So what's the 4D chess strategy behind this? Bypassing the "dishonest fake news lying media" to be transparent? Being the fall guy for the entire family? Just plain stupidity?


NYT had the email and they said they would release it.

That hasn't stopped them from shout "fake news" before. And his followers would swallow it up.

Instead he, (and by proxy Manafort and Kushner) has now admitted to colluding with a foreign government to influencing the election.

So treason has now been effectively confirmed? At this point I'm just thinking back to every conversation on the matter, with die hard Trump supporters playing everything off like it's nbd. Every time someone tried to say it's OK to kill the investigation, because it's just nonsense and won't reveal anything, as if that makes any sense. I was willing to be skeptical, but fuck, the optics on everything just looked so bad from day 1, you'd have to be an idiot to just pass everything off like that. If they're really innocent, just let the investigation happen, you know?

Also worth noting the rich, cloyingly sweet irony of the whole "but her emails" bullshit. Who knew a nothing burger could taste so delicious?
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22570 Posts
July 11 2017 17:27 GMT
#161087
The question is "is this illegal" and I don't have the knowledge to answer that question.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 11 2017 17:29 GMT
#161088
On July 12 2017 02:24 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2017 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 12 2017 02:04 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On July 12 2017 02:01 PhoenixVoid wrote:
So what's the 4D chess strategy behind this? Bypassing the "dishonest fake news lying media" to be transparent? Being the fall guy for the entire family? Just plain stupidity?


NYT had the email and they said they would release it.

That hasn't stopped them from shout "fake news" before. And his followers would swallow it up.

Instead he, (and by proxy Manafort and Kushner) has now admitted to colluding with a foreign government to influencing the election.

So treason has now been effectively confirmed? At this point I'm just thinking back to every conversation on the matter, with die hard Trump supporters playing everything off like it's nbd. Every time someone tried to say it's OK to kill the investigation, because it's just nonsense and won't reveal anything, as if that makes any sense. I was willing to be skeptical, but fuck, the optics on everything just looked so bad from day 1, you'd have to be an idiot to just pass everything off like that. If they're really innocent, just let the investigation happen, you know?

Also worth noting the rich, cloyingly sweet irony of the whole "but her emails" bullshit. Who knew a nothing burger could taste so delicious?

technically I do'nt think it could qualify as treason; as while russia isn't that friendly, I don't think they're classified as an enemy for purposes of the constitutional requirements for treason.
it also probably fails to satisfy some of the other criteria required for treason.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:30 GMT
#161089
On July 12 2017 02:27 Gorsameth wrote:
The question is "is this illegal" and I don't have the knowledge to answer that question.

From NPR: it is a felony for any election campaign to receive or solicit any substantive assistance from a foreign goverment. Whatever information the Russians were offering had a market value. And that is just one of many laws. Kushner also lied on his application for security clearance.

All of this is super bad for them and I cannot believe he tweeted that email out.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:31 GMT
#161090
Pull Kushners security clearance. Anybody else would have lost it by now.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-11 17:34:41
July 11 2017 17:33 GMT
#161091


The reporter who has been chasing this story is having an existential crisis before our eyes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
July 11 2017 17:33 GMT
#161092

Could This Obscure 1990 FEC Opinion Prove That Trump Jr. Committed a Crime? It Just Might.

As the chorus to condemn and convict Donald Trump Jr. of a crime based on his meeting with the Russian lawyer grows louder, I have been skeptical that there is any “there there.” Much of the legal analysis has been based on innuendo and some creative interpretation of the law. Trump Jr. committed treason? I don’t think so. Major stretch. Collusion? Actually, there is technically no such federal law.

However, the most compelling argument I’ve seen thus far is that Trump Jr. might be violating a campaign finance law that prohibits a campaign from soliciting “anything of value … in connection with” an election from a foreign national. But even that is stretch. Why? Because traditionally “in-kind contributions” (i.e. non-monetary contributions) are thought to be things like office furniture, event space, and computers. Would trying to solicit Clinton dirt from a Russian (who Trump Jr. apparently thought was coming from the Russian government) count as anything of value? I didn’t think so at first.

However, this 1990 advisory opinion from the Federal Election Commission is pretty damning for Trump Jr. The opinion was in response to a candidate running for New York’s 22nd Congressional district. He wanted to use poll information paid for by his friend as part of his campaign, and wanted to know if mere information counted as in-kind contribution. The FEC said, yes. The opinion said this:

If, however, Mr. Hochberg (his friend) imparts poll result information to you or anyone else working for your campaign, including any data or any analysis of the results, or if he uses the poll information to advise your campaign on matters such as campaign strategy or creating media messages, such poll information will constitute an in-kind contribution from Mr. Hochberg to your campaign, and an expenditure in an equal amount by your committee. 11 CFR 106.4(b).

In other words, mere information can be considered “anything of value” under the law, according to this interpretation.

“I think the solicitation and coordination claims are credible,” Rick Hasen, an election law expert at the University of California, Irvine School of Law, said in an email to LawNewz.com. “The two big questions are knowledge it was a foreign source (now credible if last night’s New York Times story is correct) as well as if the information being provided counts as ‘anything of value’ for purposes of the law.” Hansen said that given the 1990 advisory opinion, this at least merits “further investigation.”

In a tweet Tuesday afternoon, Donald Trump Jr. posted the email exchange that he had with a man who brokered the meeting with the Russian attorney. In the email, Rob Goldstone told Trump Jr. that “this is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and and its government support of Mr. Trump.” So clearly, Trump Jr. knew or thought he was meeting with foreign national, who was supposed to provide something of value to the campaign. But the question is—does this information have any real value in the eyes of the law? Especially considering it turned out the attorney never even possessed said information.

“The FEC’s opinion is relevant in the sense that it means information can be considered a contribution, but there’s a key distinction here,” LawNewz editor and attorney Ronn Blitzer said. “The situation that the FEC examined involved polling data that had already been paid for by someone who was not with the campaign at the time it was collected, and therefore it had a defined monetary value. Based on that, it stands to reason that just getting some dirt on an opponent might not be considered a contribution, unless it was clear that the source of the tip paid for the information.”

So there you have it. The answer to whether Trump Jr. committed a crime is far from an easy one, but this 1990 memo certainly raises the specter that there is more investigating that needs to be done.


http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/could-this-obscure-1990-fec-opinion-prove-that-trump-jr-committed-a-crime-it-just-might/
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
July 11 2017 17:33 GMT
#161093
Does this give the FBI enough evidence to go after them before causing any more damage? Or are they still going to keep investigating. At this point, I would rather like to know what the end result is going to be.
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:36 GMT
#161094
Even with this in the public, criminal investigations take time. But I'm sure this ends any debate that the investigation needs to continue. If Trump knew about this meeting, the firing of Comey has a whole new level to it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22570 Posts
July 11 2017 17:39 GMT
#161095
On July 12 2017 02:33 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Does this give the FBI enough evidence to go after them before causing any more damage? Or are they still going to keep investigating. At this point, I would rather like to know what the end result is going to be.

I assume they will keep going with their investigation until they are done. That's kinda how things go.
The normal option would be to arrest the suspect until you finish but you can't really do that with the President.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9999 Posts
July 11 2017 17:39 GMT
#161096
Can't the FBI go arrest Trump Jr. now for conspiracy? The hackers who obtained the emails committed crimes in doing so, and Trump Jr. was a part of it, or at least knew about it and said nothing to the authorities (I assume). So perverting the course of justice at least surely?
RIP Meatloaf <3
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:41 GMT
#161097
Curious what xDaunt has to say about this. The violation of campaign finance law article seems pretty damning.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 11 2017 17:42 GMT
#161098
The FBI isn't going to do anything that drastic yet. This will be a slow roll, because they only get one shot.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-11 17:54:42
July 11 2017 17:53 GMT
#161099
On July 12 2017 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
Pull Kushners security clearance. Anybody else would have lost it by now.

Whose responsibility is this?
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 11 2017 17:53 GMT
#161100
On July 12 2017 02:39 Jockmcplop wrote:
Can't the FBI go arrest Trump Jr. now for conspiracy? The hackers who obtained the emails committed crimes in doing so, and Trump Jr. was a part of it, or at least knew about it and said nothing to the authorities (I assume). So perverting the course of justice at least surely?

technically they might well be able to; but practically they probably won't; an arrest starts the speedy trial clauses ticking, and they tend to want to make sure everything is lined up and ready to prosecute first (especially with a high profile case and stuff involving conspiracies and such). I expect they feel that the flight risk is low, and that at any rate, flight would in some way be a boon for them anyways, as flight as an indicator of guilt would make it easier to win a case, and the ymight not even have to do the case if he flees and never comes back. while not optimal from a "justice" perspective, it's far easier on the FBI from an office politics perspective if they never have to actually do the prosecution because the subject fled.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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