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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 14 2014 12:55 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:52 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 12:06 IgnE wrote:
Any "new" communism would have to abandon the unsustainable constant growth paradigm. People like jonny are deluded into thinking that constant growth can be maintained, and so don't understand why anyone would want to vote/adopt/work for a "communist" politics. And under what conditions would/could this possibly happen? Not just for a "new communism," but for any social order. I'm not sure what you are asking. What makes it so hard for you to imagine a sustainable economy of well-distributed resources?
Because I don't think that humanity is capable of developing, much less maintaining, such a utopian society.
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On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! 
Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks.
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On January 14 2014 13:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:55 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 12:52 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 12:06 IgnE wrote:
Any "new" communism would have to abandon the unsustainable constant growth paradigm. People like jonny are deluded into thinking that constant growth can be maintained, and so don't understand why anyone would want to vote/adopt/work for a "communist" politics. And under what conditions would/could this possibly happen? Not just for a "new communism," but for any social order. I'm not sure what you are asking. What makes it so hard for you to imagine a sustainable economy of well-distributed resources? Because I don't think that humanity is capable of developing, much less maintaining, such a utopian society.
I wouldn't call it utopian. It's just easier for you to dismis when you do.
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On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks.
You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either.
My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe.
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On January 14 2014 13:01 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:54 Nyxisto wrote:
I hope we can all agree that Stalinism/Leninism/Maoism is really shitty as it basically devastated every country where it was practiced and did cost millions of lives in the process.
People are pointing that "true Marxism" differs a great deal from that and that is certainly true. There's no state involved in the classical communist utopia which makes it fundamentally different from everything else we have seen in history. But I do think it's highly unrealistic. We'd basically have to turn into a giant hippie society and I don't think that's happening.
And regarding Mao's "economic success". Even today China is sitting at a GDP of 6k/capita. That's only a fraction of what the average American citizen produces. China is still a developing country. At the point of Mao's reign I'd guess every policy that doesn't involve dropping nukes on your own country would guarantee rapid economic growth. Everything you say here seems ill-conceived. 1) no one has said anything about "true marxism" 2) your conclusion is that "a giant hippie society" is unlikely to happen so fuck it, let's keep what we ahve 3) you assume that per capita GDP is a useful metric of China's economic success, China has more than 4x the population of the United States 4) you seemingly lump China in with "developing" countries like Bangladesh, despite it's status as a regional hegemon and rising power Do you really think the planet could sustain a China that had a per capita GDP and consumption rate equivalent to the United States?
1)People are complaining all the time about not differentiating between communism and Stalinism over the last few pages so i did that.
2) Yes, if no on is coming up with a realistic alternative, working with what you have seems like a sensible approach for me.
3) Yes China's population is way bigger, that's why i was referring to the GDP PER CAPITA, but you did notice that so I don't understand your point. Germany is also about 5 times smaller than the US in terms of population, and we are as about as productive as the United States are.
4) China is the regional hegemon because there are 1.5 billion Chinese people. That doesn't magically change the fact that the country is sitting at a comparatively low GDP, compared to their size.
And I don't know if the planet could sustain a fully developed China, but I also don't know what that has to do with my post.
I'm all for social equality, a progressive culture and whatnot, but if a country that's barely a few hundred years old is now surpassing nations by a magnitude(in terms of economic output) which are bigger and thousands of years old, they must have done something right.
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On January 14 2014 13:08 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 12:42 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 12:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 12:29 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 12:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 12:20 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 12:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 12:06 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 10:55 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
When the means of implementing communism are functionally inseparable from the exercise of "evil" as I have pointed out, it can't be said that communism is inherently benign. Uncoincidentally, history has proven me right so far.
Kwark focuses too much on the "autocratic" nature of Stalinism and Maoism, that was, admittedly, an aspect of the cultures from which they sprung. The real problem with Stalinism and other manifestations of communism in the historical record (excepting somewhat Cuba) is that they were all designed to compete with capitalism for the manufacture of things. Mao and Stalin actually succeeded somewhat on that end. Both totally revamped their industrial economies, willfully bringing both countries out of agriculture-based peasant societies, Maoism especially. The autocratic structure is not only a byproduct of the culture, but out of the necessity to try and compete militarily and economically with a capitalist system that has a huge head start in the development of capital. Unfortunately production per se does not correlate very well with the standard metric of economic success. Compare Germany at the turn of the 20th century to Britain. Germany was growing its production and trade capacity for real things at 6x the rate of Britain, and yet was barely making a dent in the economic GDP gap between the two countries. Capital owners in Germany fortunately found a use for all that production with the coming of WWI but sadly lost whatever lead they had hoped to gain by losing the war in devastating fashion. Likewise in China and the USSR, simply expanding production per se, implementing modern industrial techniques, and the like, did not help them close the gap in terms of sheer capital accumulation with the west. You have the fall of the USSR eventually, and China adopting a mixed command/liberal economy in order to compete. You do at least have to hand it to Mao for sparking the fastest economic growth and development the world has ever seen, even if his successors eventually decided to switch to a mixed system in order to continue accumulating capital at supra-Western rates. Any "new" communism would have to abandon the unsustainable constant growth paradigm. People like jonny are deluded into thinking that constant growth can be maintained, and so don't understand why anyone would want to vote/adopt/work for a "communist" politics. Yeah the Great Leap Forward was a huge success. For someone who doesn't give a shit about the human costs of neoliberal capitalism and prides himself on his business acumen I'm surprised you can't admit Mao's limited successes. Mao was fantastic at suppressing dissidents and brainwashing China's youth. Happy? Oh I get it, the only freedom worth protecting is the right to a free market, and the only oppression that's not ok is that of the Communist Party. Yep, no brainwashing going on in the good old US of A. Mao destroyed China's economy and caused tens of millions to die. You're really defending the guy? No, I was criticizing him for trying to run communism as an alternative to capitalism without ever getting out from underneath the paradigm of constant growth and reproduction of capital. But you like to jump on the first unpleasant truth you find when trying to dismiss arguments wholesale. 3.1 million children die from starvation every year under a globalized neoliberal regime. But that's not Bill Gates's fault, because he's fighting malaria in Africa. You said Mao did a great job managing China's economy. That's laughably false. As for starving kids - progress takes time. Let's not make things worse all over again please. I didn't say Mao did "a great job managing China's economy." That's laughably false. I said Mao's revolution sparked the eventual historic economic growth of China. He industrialized the country, freed hundreds of millions of peasants from the tyranny of petty warlords, improved healthcare and education, and all after centuries of Western exploitation. He was also really bad on a number of other fronts. But I guess you like your black and white absolutes don't you.
Well, you wrote:
You do at least have to hand it to Mao for sparking the fastest economic growth and development the world has ever seen
But whatever. Mao's big programs were the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. Both were horrible.
I think Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping were much more constructive in terms of China's development. Maybe you should look into people other than Mao and decide if they deserve some credit.
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On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe.
Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it.
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On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it.
Or perhaps you could let the car companies do it- I think they would try to make cars that are both safe and efficient. These are both things that are really important to consumers (families especially). So to say that regulation isn't good enough is absurd, less people would be dead if CAFE standards didn't exist. Right now safety is sacrificed for efficiency.
My point is that regulation can actually cause harm, though most lefties seem blind to it. The only type of buruacacy they hate is one that runs an insurance agency because they like profit. However, every government entity and regulation, no matter how new or harmful, is essential.
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On January 14 2014 13:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ Yeah, it's been posted a few times. What does deregulation have to do with it?
They weren't regulated
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On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it.
Cheap isn't always more desirable.
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On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too!
because that's the wrong way of making regulations. are you saying this was the wrong deregulation? good to hear you agree.
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On January 14 2014 13:17 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:01 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 12:54 Nyxisto wrote:
I hope we can all agree that Stalinism/Leninism/Maoism is really shitty as it basically devastated every country where it was practiced and did cost millions of lives in the process.
People are pointing that "true Marxism" differs a great deal from that and that is certainly true. There's no state involved in the classical communist utopia which makes it fundamentally different from everything else we have seen in history. But I do think it's highly unrealistic. We'd basically have to turn into a giant hippie society and I don't think that's happening.
And regarding Mao's "economic success". Even today China is sitting at a GDP of 6k/capita. That's only a fraction of what the average American citizen produces. China is still a developing country. At the point of Mao's reign I'd guess every policy that doesn't involve dropping nukes on your own country would guarantee rapid economic growth. Everything you say here seems ill-conceived. 1) no one has said anything about "true marxism" 2) your conclusion is that "a giant hippie society" is unlikely to happen so fuck it, let's keep what we ahve 3) you assume that per capita GDP is a useful metric of China's economic success, China has more than 4x the population of the United States 4) you seemingly lump China in with "developing" countries like Bangladesh, despite it's status as a regional hegemon and rising power Do you really think the planet could sustain a China that had a per capita GDP and consumption rate equivalent to the United States? 1)People are complaining all the time about not differentiating between communism and Stalinism over the last few pages so i did that. 2) Yes, if no on is coming up with a realistic alternative, working with what you have seems like a sensible approach for me. 3) Yes China's population is way bigger, that's why i was referring to the GDP PER CAPITA, but you did notice that so I don't understand your point. Germany is also about 5 times smaller than the US in terms of population, and we are as about as productive as the United States are. 4) China is the regional hegemon because there are 1.5 billion Chinese people. That doesn't magically change the fact that the country is sitting at a comparatively low GDP, compared to their size. And I don't know if the planet could sustain a fully developed China, but I also don't know what that has to do with my post. I'm all for social equality, a progressive culture and whatnot, but if a country that's barely a few hundred years old is now surpassing nations by a magnitude(in terms of economic output) which are bigger and thousands of years old, they must have done something right.
Which country is thousands of years old? Which country is only a few hundred years old? The native americans are mostly dead or in Oklahoma. The ancient Europeans came over and killed them all.
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On January 14 2014 13:31 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it. Or perhaps you could let the car companies do it- I think they would try to make cars that are both safe and efficient. These are both things that are really important to consumers (families especially). So to say that regulation isn't good enough is absurd, less people would be dead if CAFE standards didn't exist. Right now safety is sacrificed for efficiency. My point is that regulation can actually cause harm, though most lefties seem blind to it. The only type of buruacacy they hate is one that runs an insurance agency because they like profit. Every government entity and regulation, no matter how new or harmful is essential.
Yeah I mean Freedom Industries tried hard to not poison the water...And now where's the accountability? Where's the responsibility?
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On January 14 2014 13:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it. Cheap isn't always more desirable.
Are you telling me it's not more desirable in this case, or are you just inserting something you learned in business school that is irrelevant?
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On January 14 2014 13:33 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! because that's the wrong way of making regulations. are you saying this was the wrong deregulation? good to hear you agree.
I'm saying that your one example is useless, because the opposite case is true for cars, and that's killed and hurt more than this water leak. "The wrong way of making regulation." What does that mean? What's the "right way'? All regulation has some sort of negative effect, because it stifles people and costs money. So CAFE really isn't different than any other regulation, it just costs human lives, while the well contaminated some water for a while.
Glad to hear you don't like CAFE standards.
Yeah I mean Freedom Industries tried hard to not poison the water...And now where's the accountability? Where's the responsibility?
I'm not saying there should be no laws or no punishment, where did you get that idea?
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On January 14 2014 13:31 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ Yeah, it's been posted a few times. What does deregulation have to do with it? They weren't regulated
They weren't?
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On January 14 2014 13:36 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it. Cheap isn't always more desirable. Are you telling me it's not more desirable in this case, or are you just inserting something you learned in business school that is irrelevant?
I don't think you need to go to college to know that cheap isn't always more desirable.
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On January 14 2014 13:35 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:31 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it. Or perhaps you could let the car companies do it- I think they would try to make cars that are both safe and efficient. These are both things that are really important to consumers (families especially). So to say that regulation isn't good enough is absurd, less people would be dead if CAFE standards didn't exist. Right now safety is sacrificed for efficiency. My point is that regulation can actually cause harm, though most lefties seem blind to it. The only type of buruacacy they hate is one that runs an insurance agency because they like profit. Every government entity and regulation, no matter how new or harmful is essential. Yeah I mean Freedom Industries tried hard to not poison the water...And now where's the accountability? Where's the responsibility?
What do you mean? Aren't they responsible? Aren't they being investigated?
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On January 14 2014 13:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:36 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 13:26 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:17 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 13:12 IgnE wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! Maybe we should just ban the sale of cars so that no one dies in car wrecks. You missed the point. Your tongue in cheek solution is actually one that the left is fond of, anyway. Banning trans fats, incandescent bulbs that don't meet the criteria, implementing CAFE standards, and other assorted things are all limited/full bans. None of them pose an immediate risk to life either. My point was that he used one example to talk about regulation, so I pointed something else out as a counter-point. It probably educated some people, as well. Well, maybe. Maybe the point is that the regulation isn't good enough, as the free market dictates that dangerous cars be made more dangerous because that's the cheapest way to do it. Cheap isn't always more desirable. Are you telling me it's not more desirable in this case, or are you just inserting something you learned in business school that is irrelevant? I don't think you need to go to college to know that cheap isn't always more desirable.
So simply stating the obvious then for no reason?
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On January 14 2014 13:37 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:33 Roe wrote:On January 14 2014 13:02 Introvert wrote:On January 14 2014 12:56 Roe wrote:so uhhh...is anyone talking about the company that poisoned the waters in west virginia to the point that 300 000 people didn't have water for 4 days (and expected to be several more)? How can people really believe this deregulation (or unregulation) actually improves quality of life or the economy? As over 300,000 people in West Virginia face a fourth day without water, state environmental officials are now estimating that as much as 7,500 gallons of a chemical used to process coal — Crude MCHM — may have spilled into the Elk River. That number is a substantial increase from early estimates of 2,000 to 5,000 gallons.
The chemical leak, first reported Thursday, was at a facility owned by Freedom Industries along the Elk River, just 1.5 miles upstream from a major intake used by the largest water utility in the state, West Virginia American Water.
At a press conference Saturday afternoon, Jeff McIntyre, president of West Virginia American Water Company, said that it would likely still be “several days” before tap water in the nine counties affected would be safe for anything besides flushing toilets.
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention has set the standard of 1 part per million as a safe concentration of Crude MCHM in drinking water. Levels of the chemical must remain below this threshold for over 24 hours of testing before the water company can begin flushing the system.
At a press briefing Saturday evening, Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin’s (D) office released the first results of the now round-the-clock water sampling efforts. While some tests are coming in below the safe threshold, the system is still far from clean. Eight out of 18 recent test results tested above 1 part per million. Some of the earliest tests showed concentrations as high as 3 parts per million.
“The reason the numbers are going down is we believe less of the material is getting into the water,” said Mike Dorsey, the chief of homeland security and emergency response at the State Department of Environmental Protection. “We have cut of the source of the leak, the tank. There is still material under the concrete and the soil. We’ve taken aggressive measures on the shore line below the site.”
A team from the Chemical Safety Board will arrive in West Virginia on Monday to begin the long process of assessing the cause of the spill. The CSB is an independent federal agency with the authority to investigate industrial chemical accidents. The agency issues recommendations for prevention of future accidents.
To date, FEMA has brought in 1.4 million liters of water for residents. An additional 1.6 million liters are expected to come in over the course of the weekend.
The New York Times reported Saturday that at least 122 people have gone to local hospitals complaining of nausea, vomiting, and skin and eye irritation. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/12/3151421/fourth-day-water-west-virginia/ CAFE standards lead to smaller cars that are less safe, meaning more people die. They also increase prices. How can anyone say increasing regulation improves the quality of life or the economy? http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/296998/cafe-standards-kill-deroy-murdockI even have a partisan source, too! because that's the wrong way of making regulations. are you saying this was the wrong deregulation? good to hear you agree. I'm saying that your one example is useless, because the opposite case is true for cars, and that's killed and hurt more than this water leak. "The wrong way of making regulation." What does that mean? What's the "right way'? All regulation has some sort of negative effect, because it stifles people and costs money. So CAFE really isn't different than any other regulation, it just costs human lives, while the well contaminated some water for a while. Glad to hear you don't like CAFE standards. Show nested quote +Yeah I mean Freedom Industries tried hard to not poison the water...And now where's the accountability? Where's the responsibility? I'm not saying there should be no laws or no punishment, where did you get that idea?
I didn't!
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