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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7488

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18220 Posts
May 10 2017 15:00 GMT
#149741
I feel really sorry for the people who have to come up with this season's script of House of Cards.

Meanwhile, the only people who are #winning from Trump's presidency are the late night comedy shows.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13401 Posts
May 10 2017 15:03 GMT
#149742
On May 10 2017 23:39 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 23:28 ZeromuS wrote:
On May 10 2017 23:10 Danglars wrote:
On May 10 2017 23:02 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 10 2017 22:59 Danglars wrote:
On May 10 2017 22:55 Doodsmack wrote:
This isn't about Hillary's emails, Danglars, and I think you know it.

It isn't. It's his handling of the investigation into Hillary's emails and response to Lynch's actions. I'm not aware that Comey is mentioned a lot in Hillary's emails or sent any to her private address.

The actions that Trump and Sessions praised him for and that they did not fire him for 3 months ago...

When neither had to run or oversee the justice department ...

Edit: AG Sessions was in place, but hadn't staffed his department.


The fact of the matter is the timing is ridiculous and the Senate WILL confirm anyone put forth if they tow the party line. They relaxed the requirements for approving appointees in the senate if you have forgotten.

And no Comey isn't a good guy. Yes he should be replaced. But no, it shouldn't be now, it shouldnt be in the middle of the russia probe, it shouldn't be by the people he's investigating.

If the AG thought it was THAT bad he should have brought it to Congress and let that process address the situation. Especially since he recused himself from the russia probe and thats what comey has been doing in the public eye for months now.

Or you fire the man and agree to a special prosecutor and select committee because the apparent conflict of interest is clear to everyone. Whether it exists or not, the optics don't change.

but we all know how this administration deals with conflicts of interest, they don't apply to the president or his confidants.


The legislative and executive branches are separate. The AG doesn't bring issues up to the legislature. It's not a matter for Congress, only the Senate has a role and that's confirming or not confirming Presidential nominees. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting these ideas about the structure of the American government.

The Russia probe and the bad agency head is a mess and was always going to be a mess. Can't you see there was no easy way out? I want to see the investigation continue under new leadership and I expect everyone to press their Senators to reject a possible bad nominee. Comey's a free man now. If he discovered some bombshell fact Trump is trying to suppress he won't sit still with a coverup investigation. It should be clear to you how Comey acted under the Obama administration that the FBI doesn't kow-tow to the President.


Any civil officer of the US can be removed from their office through impeachment proceedings. This includes the director of the FBI if he mishandled his duties THAT severely.

Let us keep in mind the only other FBI director to ever get fired prior to this was fired by Bill Clinton. the reasons?

"The Justice Department report found, among other things, that Sessions had engaged in a sham transaction to avoid paying taxes on his use of an FBI limousine to take him to and from work, that he had billed the government for a security fence around his home that provided no security and that he had arranged business trips to places where he could meet with relatives."


Mishandling public funds and taxpayer dollars for personal gain. Thats pretty serious.

Comey's was "lack of public trust" which is extremely vague. And with the circumstances any replacement will immediately be met with skepticism. Especially if the Democrats move to block the nomination but the simple majority from the Republicans towing party line gives them power. The GOP can spin any appointment that the dems oppose as "partisan" - when it could full well be clear to everyone and their mother that the appointee is flawed (wheres the public trust in that?).

I don't believe that Trump will pick anoyone but someone loyal to him. He has zero track record aside from Mattis on trying to find someone actually good for the job.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 15:07 GMT
#149743
Maybe Mattis is a decent appointment (not to my taste but he's a competent and rightly well-regarded general) but Trump chose him more so because he "looked the part" than because of that. A sort of "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" choice.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 10 2017 15:09 GMT
#149744
This account of the lead-up and the aftermath of Trump's decision is based on interviews with more than two dozen officials at the White House, the Justice Department, the FBI and on Capitol Hill, nearly all of whom spoke anonymously to describe an extraordinarily sensitive moment for Trump and his presidency.

...

Multiple White House officials said Trump had been considering firing Comey for at least a week before he made Tuesday's decision. Indeed, Trump revealed his anger in a string of late-night messages on Twitter May 2, exactly a week before his final decision was made public.

...

The idea of firing Comey was closely held within the West Wing, these officials say, where the few aides who were aware of Trump's intentions barely discussed the topic among themselves. Among those looped in: Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who began fine-tuning their rationale for removing Comey from his post shortly after learning of Trump's intentions.

On Tuesday, they had their explanation: Comey mishandled the investigation into Clinton's emails.

...

"This is a shitshow," one GOP aide said in a text message.


www.cnn.com
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-10 15:14:43
May 10 2017 15:13 GMT
#149745
I really don't understand how GOP leadership can justify to themselves that appointing a special prosecutor on the case is not necessary when part of the publicly listed reason for the firing is consultation with someone who had to recuse themselves from a case that is referenced in the letter.

Actually, I do understand, it's called they don't care about anything but their nonsense agenda.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5902 Posts
May 10 2017 15:19 GMT
#149746
Actually I guess stopped clocks can't be never right, isn't that interesting, only working clocks are capable of being perpetually wrong.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 10 2017 15:26 GMT
#149747
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35170 Posts
May 10 2017 15:28 GMT
#149748
On May 11 2017 00:19 oBlade wrote:
Actually I guess stopped clocks can't be never right, isn't that interesting, only working clocks are capable of being perpetually wrong.

Working clocks are either right or out of place.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 10 2017 15:29 GMT
#149749
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
May 10 2017 15:39 GMT
#149750
But Clapper thinks WikiLeaks is part of the Russia government!!
Life?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 15:40 GMT
#149751
On May 11 2017 00:29 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/862073819300810753

Is it the real one? I ask because this account isn't verified.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 10 2017 15:45 GMT
#149752
Next up Trump needs to fire his communications director and everybody in that department. He didn't have a guy out there this morning with the talking points. Shumer ejected his blather almost immediately and Trump's got his press secretary hiding in hedges. Absolutely irresponsible.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 10 2017 15:46 GMT
#149753
On May 11 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:
Next up Trump needs to fire his communications director and everybody in that department. He didn't have a guy out there this morning with the talking points. Shumer ejected his blather almost immediately and Trump's got his press secretary hiding in hedges. Absolutely irresponsible.


You're not blaming that on Trump?
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
May 10 2017 15:47 GMT
#149754
On May 10 2017 23:38 Doodsmack wrote:
This clip is pretty amazing


I have no idea how to interpret this. The Russian foreign minister is upset/disappointed by the firing?
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3295 Posts
May 10 2017 15:49 GMT
#149755
On May 10 2017 23:52 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 23:47 ChristianS wrote:
On May 10 2017 23:31 Danglars wrote:
On May 10 2017 23:23 Doodsmack wrote:
It doesn't even have to be about a nefarious plot to undermine the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign. Reports suggest it's more about pettiness and news coverage - though the line between that and interfering with the investigation is not very thick. The fact that anyone would accept the pretext of Hillary's email investigation is a troubling level of trust in Donald Trump.

The fact that everybody forgets they called for his firing before objecting strongly to his firing betrays its political nature. Whine about the timing if you want; he'd have been punished far worse if he did so immediately after assuming office. There was no good time to do it and it was clear before the fact that the justice department was in disarray. Just because I dislike Trump and don't trust him generally to do the right thing doesn't mean I'm obligated to call everything he does bad. You should try it too.

The bolded part is just not true. If the present justifications were given in January, I would have thought it was a little weird but probably fine. The timing is so, so much worse now, to the point that it betrays the stated purpose (to restore public trust in the FBI).

I assume because it's you we're talking to, the fact that anonymous sources in the WH and elsewhere are saying it was about the Russia investigation is inadmissible as evidence?

He gets into office and immediately fires the guy who's investigating Russian influence on the election. Have you lost your mind? That would be ten times worse as a matter of public visibility, no matter how justified he'd be in doing it. I'll stand with you if the new FBI head is treating the investigation lightly or senior FBI officials resign in disgust.

In January, no AG Sessions and no Dep AG. I fail to see how having nobody to present said justifications makes them materialize into thin air.

A lot of Democrats were more mad at Comey then for starters, and if Trump thought the email investigation was mishandled that would have been his first chance to act on that. Meanwhile we didn't know that much about the FBI's russia investigation yet at that point. Honestly I was surprised at the time that he didn't fire Comey.

Now the only semiplausible explanation I see is that Rosenstein got in and immediately wanted to fire Comey, and that process took two weeks to bear out. But all evidence suggests it was Trump's idea, not Rosenstein's, and that the decision was quite abrupt. In which case any causes that took place in 2016 automatically ring quite hollow.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 10 2017 15:49 GMT
#149756
On May 11 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:
Next up Trump needs to fire his communications director and everybody in that department. He didn't have a guy out there this morning with the talking points. Shumer ejected his blather almost immediately and Trump's got his press secretary hiding in hedges. Absolutely irresponsible.

This assumes that Trump can find someone more capable to take the job and can re-staff the communication department. And the press sec is supposed to relay the president’s message to the press. I’m not sure Trump gives Spicey much to work with.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43609 Posts
May 10 2017 15:49 GMT
#149757
On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:
On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:
On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:47 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:42 ChristianS wrote:
Serious question for those ITT who think Trump was justified on this one (so far, xDaunt and Danglars are in this category at least). What possible explanation is there for this happening right now? There's an ongoing investigation into matters that implicate Trump's campaign, and Comey is set to testify to Congress about the investigation tomorrow. All of the rationales for his firing offered by the administration are events from last year.

I figured the juicier allegations about Trump were probably false just because reality isn't usually that excitingk but I'm seriously wondering now, why would he do this if there wasn't something to hide?

There are any number of reasons why Trump would get rid of Comey now, some of which are set forth in the letters attached to Trump's termination letter. I'm not going to pretend to know why Trump did it. However, I find it highly amusing that so many are jumping to the conclusion that Comey's termination is the product of some nefarious motive of Trump's to halt whatever investigation is going on into Trump's campaign or other affairs of his. If anything, I find this particular conclusion to be one of the hardest to believe. Trump simply isn't that stupid.

Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty.

Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it?


No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this:

1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).
2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation.
3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation.
4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation.
5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3.
6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons.

Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty."

Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3?

Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country.

Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly.

Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people.

A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him.

I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain?

In Bio's defence, he's no xDaunt.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 10 2017 15:51 GMT
#149758
On May 11 2017 00:46 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:
Next up Trump needs to fire his communications director and everybody in that department. He didn't have a guy out there this morning with the talking points. Shumer ejected his blather almost immediately and Trump's got his press secretary hiding in hedges. Absolutely irresponsible.


You're not blaming that on Trump?

In his capacity as the guy that hired these people, sure. For example, I don't like Spicer, but who would take that job, seriously? Maybe it's Trump that ignores messaging is important, maybe his staff was tangled up without leadership composing talking points from the letter and other angles.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 10 2017 15:55 GMT
#149759
On May 11 2017 00:51 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2017 00:46 Doodsmack wrote:
On May 11 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:
Next up Trump needs to fire his communications director and everybody in that department. He didn't have a guy out there this morning with the talking points. Shumer ejected his blather almost immediately and Trump's got his press secretary hiding in hedges. Absolutely irresponsible.


You're not blaming that on Trump?

In his capacity as the guy that hired these people, sure. For example, I don't like Spicer, but who would take that job, seriously? Maybe it's Trump that ignores messaging is important, maybe his staff was tangled up without leadership composing talking points from the letter and other angles.


Don't tell me that there aren't thousands of people wanting such a prestigious and undoubtedly well-paying job who are more capable of public communication than Spicer. The guy is a walking PR disaster, he isn't even good in fluently talking, so what is he doing in such job? I understand that it may be difficult for Trump to fill specific positions with top experts in the respective fields, if the best people for the job refuse to have anything with him, but here we are talking about a pretty generic job for which there must be hordes of candidates.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13401 Posts
May 10 2017 15:55 GMT
#149760
hmmmmmm

StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
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