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On May 11 2017 01:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 09:47 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 09:42 ChristianS wrote:
Serious question for those ITT who think Trump was justified on this one (so far, xDaunt and Danglars are in this category at least). What possible explanation is there for this happening right now? There's an ongoing investigation into matters that implicate Trump's campaign, and Comey is set to testify to Congress about the investigation tomorrow. All of the rationales for his firing offered by the administration are events from last year.
I figured the juicier allegations about Trump were probably false just because reality isn't usually that excitingk but I'm seriously wondering now, why would he do this if there wasn't something to hide? There are any number of reasons why Trump would get rid of Comey now, some of which are set forth in the letters attached to Trump's termination letter. I'm not going to pretend to know why Trump did it. However, I find it highly amusing that so many are jumping to the conclusion that Comey's termination is the product of some nefarious motive of Trump's to halt whatever investigation is going on into Trump's campaign or other affairs of his. If anything, I find this particular conclusion to be one of the hardest to believe. Trump simply isn't that stupid. Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty. Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it? No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this: 1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason). 2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation. 3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation. 4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation. 5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3. 6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty." Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3? Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country. Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly. Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people. A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him. I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain? Guess what? I'd still vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton. I'd still probably take him over the other republican candidates, too. No one who voted for Trump was under any delusion that they were voting for a paragon of virtue. Supporting Trump was about a combination of the ideas, the policies, and the desire to try something new given how rotten the GOP is. Nothing is going to change that calculation unless either a) it's shown that Trump really did do something illegal, or b) Trump abandons too much of the platform on which he ran. The latter possibility strikes me as being eminently more likely at this point.
What if his incompetence makes the government gradually fall apart and stop working? Would you consider that a c)?
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On May 11 2017 02:14 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:11 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 01:59 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 09:47 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
There are any number of reasons why Trump would get rid of Comey now, some of which are set forth in the letters attached to Trump's termination letter. I'm not going to pretend to know why Trump did it. However, I find it highly amusing that so many are jumping to the conclusion that Comey's termination is the product of some nefarious motive of Trump's to halt whatever investigation is going on into Trump's campaign or other affairs of his. If anything, I find this particular conclusion to be one of the hardest to believe. Trump simply isn't that stupid. Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty. Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it? No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this: 1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason). 2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation. 3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation. 4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation. 5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3. 6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty." Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3? Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country. Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly. Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people. A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him. I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain? Guess what? I'd still vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton. I'd still probably take him over the other republican candidates, too. No one who voted for Trump was under any delusion that they were voting for a paragon of virtue. Supporting Trump was about a combination of the ideas, the policies, and the desire to try something new given how rotten the GOP is. Nothing is going to change that calculation unless either a) it's shown that Trump really did do something illegal, or b) Trump abandons too much of the platform on which he ran. The latter possibility strikes me as being eminently more likely at this point. I like how you leave no room for the quality of the job Trump is doing to change your support of Trump unless it's abandoning his campaign platforms. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that you are just supporting what you think is best for the country. Why would I divorce the "quality of the job" from fulfilling campaign promises? During the campaign, Trump laid out not only specific planks of his platform, but also an overall philosophy of governance. If he adheres to those things, his supporters will almost necessarily think that he's doing a good job.
Because the job entails more than things that Trump brought up on the campaign trail?
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On May 11 2017 02:17 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:14 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:11 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 01:59 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty.
Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it? No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this: 1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason). 2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation. 3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation. 4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation. 5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3. 6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty." Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3? Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country. Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly. Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people. A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him. I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain? Guess what? I'd still vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton. I'd still probably take him over the other republican candidates, too. No one who voted for Trump was under any delusion that they were voting for a paragon of virtue. Supporting Trump was about a combination of the ideas, the policies, and the desire to try something new given how rotten the GOP is. Nothing is going to change that calculation unless either a) it's shown that Trump really did do something illegal, or b) Trump abandons too much of the platform on which he ran. The latter possibility strikes me as being eminently more likely at this point. I like how you leave no room for the quality of the job Trump is doing to change your support of Trump unless it's abandoning his campaign platforms. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that you are just supporting what you think is best for the country. Why would I divorce the "quality of the job" from fulfilling campaign promises? During the campaign, Trump laid out not only specific planks of his platform, but also an overall philosophy of governance. If he adheres to those things, his supporters will almost necessarily think that he's doing a good job. Because the job entails more than things that Trump brought up on the campaign trail?
We're basically arguing semantics, but my point is that if Trump governs according to the philosophy that he laid out on the campaign trail, then all of that stuff will be necessarily taken care of.
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On May 11 2017 02:20 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:17 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 02:14 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:11 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 01:59 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this:
1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).
2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation.
3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation.
4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation.
5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3.
6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty." Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3? Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country. Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly. Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people. A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him. I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain? Guess what? I'd still vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton. I'd still probably take him over the other republican candidates, too. No one who voted for Trump was under any delusion that they were voting for a paragon of virtue. Supporting Trump was about a combination of the ideas, the policies, and the desire to try something new given how rotten the GOP is. Nothing is going to change that calculation unless either a) it's shown that Trump really did do something illegal, or b) Trump abandons too much of the platform on which he ran. The latter possibility strikes me as being eminently more likely at this point. I like how you leave no room for the quality of the job Trump is doing to change your support of Trump unless it's abandoning his campaign platforms. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that you are just supporting what you think is best for the country. Why would I divorce the "quality of the job" from fulfilling campaign promises? During the campaign, Trump laid out not only specific planks of his platform, but also an overall philosophy of governance. If he adheres to those things, his supporters will almost necessarily think that he's doing a good job. Because the job entails more than things that Trump brought up on the campaign trail? We're basically arguing semantics, but my point is that if Trump governs according to the philosophy that he laid out on the campaign trail, then all of that stuff will be necessarily taken care of.
And what if adhering to that philosophy in a specific situation leads to disastrous results?
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Danglars and Xdaunt have confidence that any investigation by the Senate and FBI will move forward even after the firing. And they are likely correct on both fronts, though the FBI investigation might be delayed until a new director is confirmed. The senate is going to charge forward without delay for sure and the grand jury isn’t going to slow.
But their performance as the rational, objective and reasonable observers shouldn’t be taken seriously. This is the performance they always put on to then talk down to the “leftist” members of the thread. There is nothing normal about the way this was handled or the WH’s response. The optics are terrible and people have more than enough reason to be concerned. Trump has never displayed any respect for the rule of law or the limits of the office he holds. That is reason enough to worry.
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On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 00:55 ZeromuS wrote:
hmmmmmm
The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts.
@Danglars
Of course Comey was personally involved in gathering evidence, which was obviously serious enough to warrant impaneling at least one grand jury. That is literally the job of the FBI director.
@xDaunt
Ironically, I am a conservative who voted for Trump. But what I have seen so far about the Russian connection is so disturbing that I have no choice but to demand a full, transparent investigation into the matter, unhindered by partisan meddling. And the sad truth is that the Republican party has done a lot to obstruct these investigations at every turn. See Devin Nunes, Richard Burr, every congressman who asks questions completely unrelated to the Russian investigation in hearings specifically on the Russia investigation (hint: they're all Republicans), etc. It is very sad to watch a party who I supported go down the drain like this.
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On May 11 2017 02:23 Plansix wrote:
Danglars and Xdaunt have confidence that any investigation by the Senate and FBI will move forward even after the firing. And they are likely correct on both fronts, though the FBI investigation might be delayed until a new director is confirmed. The senate is going to charge forward without delay for sure and the grand jury isn’t going to slow.
But their performance as the rational, objective and reasonable observers shouldn’t be taken seriously. This is the performance they always put on to then talk down to the “leftist” members of the thread. There is nothing normal about the way this was handled or the WH’s response. The optics are terrible and people have more than enough reason to be concerned. Trump has never displayed any respect for the rule of law or the limits of the office he holds. That is reason enough to worry.
There's also a wider range of results than "investigation continues" and "investigation does not continue". A good example is this https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/comey-russia-investigation-fbi.html
WASHINGTON — Days before he was fired, James B. Comey, the former F.B.I. director, asked the Justice Department for a significant increase in resources for the bureau’s investigation into Russia’s interference in the presidential election, according to three congressional officials who were briefed on his request.
There's a lot that the director has discretion over in terms of the specifics of the investigation and the firing of Comey can certainly gum up the works a bit, especially if the replacement is less enthusiastic about the investigation.
I don't think it's hard to understand? Anyone who's worked in a professional environment for a company that has some form of different projects should know the difference it makes having support (especially budget support) from higher up vs not.
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Based on this I would conclude that Trump fired Comey to deliberately interfere with the Russia investigation.
Trump had been planning to oust Comey for at least a week, The New York Times and CNN report, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions had been charged with finding a good pretext. The president was increasingly incensed at the FBI's investigation into his orbit's ties to Russia during the election, Politico and The Wall Street Journal report. With understaffed investigations languishing in Congress, the FBI's investigation was the most active and serious.
Trump specifically "grew unhappy that the media spotlight kept shining on the director," and "questioned whether his expanding media profile was warping his view of the Russia investigation," White House officials tell The Wall Street Journal. "A person with knowledge of recent conversations said they wanted Mr. Comey to 'say those three little words: There's no ties,'" and he did not. Trump was also angry that Comey "wouldn't support his claims that President Barack Obama had tapped his phones in Trump Tower" and refused to prioritize inquiries into the leaking of information that made Trump look bad, Politico reports, but the main irritant was Russia:
[Trump] had grown enraged by the Russia investigation, two advisers said, frustrated by his inability to control the mushrooming narrative around Russia. He repeatedly asked aides why the Russia investigation wouldn't disappear and demanded they speak out for him. He would sometimes scream at television clips about the probe, one adviser said.
www.msn.com
Yes, Trump is that big of a buffoon.
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At this point, why have laws? The ruling class in this country are just doing whatever takes their fancy, regardless of how enormously inappropriate it might be for them to be doing so right now. Even if you generously assume this administration survives this debacle, there's not a shot in hell their asses don't get voted out in '18. What a complete farce.
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On May 11 2017 03:02 NewSunshine wrote:
At this point, why have laws? The ruling class in this country are just doing whatever takes their fancy, regardless of how enormously inappropriate it might be for them to be doing so right now. Even if you generously assume this administration survives this debacle, there's not a shot in hell their asses don't get voted out in '18. What a complete farce.
And they've managed to convince the gun toting populous, which the 2nd is supposed to empower to get rid of them, to go along with it.
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On May 11 2017 03:02 NewSunshine wrote:
At this point, why have laws? The ruling class in this country are just doing whatever takes their fancy, regardless of how enormously inappropriate it might be for them to be doing so right now. Even if you generously assume this administration survives this debacle, there's not a shot in hell their asses don't get voted out in '18. What a complete farce.
Don't be so sure about that; consider you are on a left leaning website. Go to breitbart and you will see a totally different message than what you are seeing here.
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Also the director of the Census Bureau has declared his resignation, effective June 30th. Trump's already dragged his feet on appointing people for hundreds of other federal positions, so I can't wait to see how long the Census Bureau goes without a rudder.
On May 11 2017 03:06 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 03:02 NewSunshine wrote:
At this point, why have laws? The ruling class in this country are just doing whatever takes their fancy, regardless of how enormously inappropriate it might be for them to be doing so right now. Even if you generously assume this administration survives this debacle, there's not a shot in hell their asses don't get voted out in '18. What a complete farce. Don't be so sure about that; consider you are on a left leaning website. Go to breitbart and you will see a totally different message than what you are seeing here.
You're probably right. As much as xDaunt and Danglars are playing the lunatic in their staunch defense of almost certain treason, they're serving the important reminder that not everybody sees it that way. Which is its own kind of awful.
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On May 11 2017 03:02 NewSunshine wrote:
At this point, why have laws? The ruling class in this country are just doing whatever takes their fancy, regardless of how enormously inappropriate it might be for them to be doing so right now. Even if you generously assume this administration survives this debacle, there's not a shot in hell their asses don't get voted out in '18. What a complete farce.
That's the glorious part about Trump. He's doing the same things all the rest have done but with a rank ignorance, combined with bold brashness.
He's like the masked magician guy that ruins magic tricks by explaining how they are done, and his universally hated by other magicians. Except instead of explaining the magic trick, Trump is just too clumsy to do it well and exposes the trick by way of confident incompetence.
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On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts.
I won't be continuing the pointless endeavor forever. The best case scenario is the final FBI report sobers some people up and the 2018 elections sobers more people up. High anxiety for long periods of time isn't good for the health.
In other news, Sarah Sanders is doing a good job thus far in the press briefing.
"Since you guys keep asking the same questions, I guess it's fair for me to keep repeating the same answers" lol
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On May 11 2017 03:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts. I won't be continuing the pointless endeavor forever. The best case scenario is the final FBI report sobers some people up and the 2018 elections sobers more people up. High anxiety for long periods of time isn't good for the health.
I completely agree with all of those statements.
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On May 11 2017 03:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts. I won't be continuing the pointless endeavor forever. The best case scenario is the final FBI report sobers some people up and the 2018 elections sobers more people up. High anxiety for long periods of time isn't good for the health.
I mean, assume the FBI investigation vindicates Trump, and his administration, of any egregious collusion with the Russians, what is this best case scenario? You still have a commander-in-chief who, at best, rashly decided out of frustration to fire the head of the FBI who was, at that very moment, conducting said investigation. This is where intent doesn't matter, because it just looks that bad. There's no good spin to 'he was investigating me, and I happened to fire him at that exact moment'. This is the worst possible timing to make a move that had been justified for months.
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On May 11 2017 02:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts. @Danglars Of course Comey was personally involved in gathering evidence, which was obviously serious enough to warrant impaneling at least one grand jury. That is literally the job of the FBI director.
No, he directs the actions of others and oversees its operation as his primary job. He has an entire department of qualified agents, a hierarchy overseeing important cases, and many lieutenants that report back to him on what is happening. So no, that isn't his job.
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On May 11 2017 03:18 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 03:11 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 02:10 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:27 ZeromuS wrote:On May 11 2017 01:24 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 01:14 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On May 11 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:The leaks here are pretty reassuring that any future coverup of the FBI's investigation of Trump's campaign aides will be immediately outed. Not my preferred reassurance but whatever. The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know. But these constitutional crisis deranged lunatics on the left are a good reminder for Americans what the Trump administration is up against. CNN corroborated yesterday that there are grand jury subpoenas for associates of Michael Flynn. https://cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.htmlThe man who first reported the existence of grand juries involving the FBI investigation into Trump/Russia is Claude Taylor, former White House staffer. He also named the EDVA district as the location of all those juries. Now MSM is confirming this. Mr. Taylor also reports now that there are 25 sealed indictments in EDVA. He also says that state AG Schneiderman will be bringing RICO charges as well against Donald Trump and the Trump Org, and there is no presidential pardon power for state level offenses. Your thoughts? You mean aside from "The investigation will continue apace and we'll find out if people like Flynn, Manafort, and Carter are guilty of more than we already know?" There will be no coverup. Comey was heading the career FBI investigators that will find out the truth. Trump made bad staffing decisions and some former Trump associates made bad decisions. Frankly, if any of this is traceable to Trump it probably would've already been leaked, but I'm waiting for the investigation's conclusion. If some other state AG brings racketeering charges against Trump himself and Trump's company, that would be a new development and I'll follow it as details come out. At this point the fact Trump and his friends are doing everything they can to derail the investigation or delay its findings and get in its way is whats going to end up bringing him down. thats what happened to Nixon. For him it was the coverup No, you're making unverified claims about what's happening right now. The investigation continues, or were you under the impression Comey was personally involved in impaneling grand juries and gathering evidence? Don't confuse your own frustration born out of irrational Trump hatred (or rational Trump hatred that's infected your consideration of current events) for actual proof of obstruction. You have no evidence and your suppositions are faulty. Good luck convincing those on the left who are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Trump to actually consider the facts. I won't be continuing the pointless endeavor forever. The best case scenario is the final FBI report sobers some people up and the 2018 elections sobers more people up. High anxiety for long periods of time isn't good for the health. I mean, assume the FBI investigation vindicates Trump, and his administration, of any egregious collusion with the Russians, what is this best case scenario? You still have a commander-in-chief who, at best, rashly decided out of frustration to fire the head of the FBI who was, at that very moment, conducting said investigation. This is where intent doesn't matter, because it just looks that bad. There's no good spin to 'he was investigating me, and I happened to fire him at that exact moment'. This is the worst possible timing to make a move that had been justified for months.
It doesn't matter anyways, people like Danglars will just pick their target. A lot of people want to see a credible investigation and are willing to accept the results but that group will just be discounted in favor of painting everyone with the blood thirsty conspiracy people that already believe Trump is guilty.
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On May 11 2017 02:20 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 02:17 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 02:14 xDaunt wrote:On May 11 2017 02:11 Logo wrote:On May 11 2017 01:59 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2017 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 10 2017 17:38 LegalLord wrote:On May 10 2017 17:27 Slydie wrote:On May 10 2017 13:08 ChristianS wrote:On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this:
1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).
2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation.
3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation.
4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation.
5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3.
6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty." Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3? Shame on the Americans who voted for him. I hope you some day realize how much you have harmed your country. Don't let yourself forget the context under which Trump was elected. In a vacuum he is a completely and utterly terrible choice, that much is true. But in a vacuum the same thing could be said for all of his Republican opposition and his Democratic opponent. People were forced to make a choice that ended quite badly amongst a slew of choices, all of which would have ended badly. Quite simply, if not Trump then who would it be? Probably Hillary Clinton, who I'm sure you all would be ok with but whom most of the country very strongly dislikes. Voting Clinton was the least pleasant vote I cast in a long, long time. With such strong disdain even a dangerous fool seems like the "lesser evil" to too many people. A shitload of people voted Trump enthusiastically, said and repeated he was great and went to his meetings to chant "lock her up". And there are still many of them supporting him. I'm sick of blame deflection to anyone but the folks who voted for the guy. If I follow this thread, it's not Danglar, xDaunt and Biologymajor who are to blame for this shitshow, but the DNC or the liberal elites. What about blaming the guys who voted for that grotesque narcissistic batman villain? Guess what? I'd still vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton. I'd still probably take him over the other republican candidates, too. No one who voted for Trump was under any delusion that they were voting for a paragon of virtue. Supporting Trump was about a combination of the ideas, the policies, and the desire to try something new given how rotten the GOP is. Nothing is going to change that calculation unless either a) it's shown that Trump really did do something illegal, or b) Trump abandons too much of the platform on which he ran. The latter possibility strikes me as being eminently more likely at this point. I like how you leave no room for the quality of the job Trump is doing to change your support of Trump unless it's abandoning his campaign platforms. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that you are just supporting what you think is best for the country. Why would I divorce the "quality of the job" from fulfilling campaign promises? During the campaign, Trump laid out not only specific planks of his platform, but also an overall philosophy of governance. If he adheres to those things, his supporters will almost necessarily think that he's doing a good job. Because the job entails more than things that Trump brought up on the campaign trail? We're basically arguing semantics, but my point is that if Trump governs according to the philosophy that he laid out on the campaign trail, then all of that stuff will be necessarily taken care of.
What if he "tries to", but is shown (repeatedly) to be utterly incompetent at it?
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EPT
