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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
May 03 2017 01:18 GMT
#148721
Hey, so I think most people here are on board with the idea that Trump (or congressional Republicans, or both) botched the budget negotiation. I think even xDaunt and Danglars agree (correct me if I'm wrong). But can we talk about how Trump is already starting to screw up September?

So in trying to defend himself from critics, he insists that they did the best they could, but they had to pass a bill that could get past a Democratic filibuster, so people will have to vote in a filibuster-proof Republican majority or nuke the filibuster if they want him to get a better deal. But he insists they're going to do better in September (in apparent contradiction to his previous statement, since presumably the filibuster will still be intact and 2018 won't have happened yet). But then, most importantly, he suggests maybe we need a good shutdown in September in order to get a better deal.

Now here's the thing. Most people think that government shutdowns are stupid, and reflect incompetence on the part of Washington. But in the event of a government shutdown, it's the job of both parties to sell the idea that the shutdown is the other side's fault. Republicans already have something of a natural disadvantage in this, since they've overtly used the tactic previously to achieve political gain, and because so much of their rhetoric is anti-government anyways so it makes more sense to people that they would be trying to shut the government down.

So in that context, you want to choose a bargaining pitch for which the other side believes not only that you're willing to shut the government down if they don't take your offer, but also that you'll be able to convince everyone it was their fault when the shutdown occurs. Otherwise, they can just let you shut it down, blame you, and continue to wait until you come back to the table on their terms; meanwhile any fallout from the shutdown is on your shoulders.

With all that in mind, opening the discussion with a very public threat to shut the government down is deeply, deeply stupid. If he keeps that line all the way to September, it gives Democrats all the license in the world to choose a very ambitious bargaining position, and refuse to budge in Republicans' direction at all, because either the Republicans will cave and they'll get what they want, or the Republicans will shut the government down and the Democrats can easily say "see, Trump is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Now you can't go to national parks and shit because Trump's incompetent."

Is there something I'm not seeing to this? How is opening the negotiation with "I think we should maybe shut down the government" not, like, the exact worst bargaining strategy possible? He can't even claim he was just threatening to do it because the Dems were being intransigent in the negotiations, because it's literally months before the negotiations even start.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13969 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 01:31:07
May 03 2017 01:29 GMT
#148722
You're talking like the dems are the only other entity that he has to negotiate with to get things done in his government. Most of the republicans bearly tolerate him for their own power and the tea partiers are basically a third party in their own right at this point.

You complain about his start to negotiations and then end your post saying that negotiations are months off. I think you're confused on how politics work on that point. It doesn't end or begin at any point it just always is happening.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 03 2017 01:32 GMT
#148723


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 02:07:01
May 03 2017 01:57 GMT
#148724
On May 03 2017 09:07 Reaper9 wrote:
Americans need to stop fucking over Americans, we are all united under the same banner.

You hit the nail on the head here. The people have gotten so profoundly divided that they stop seeing it that way, and only see red/blue. My complete aloofness with politics for most of my adult life has stemmed from the fact that people will viciously tear each other apart over meaningless tripe, all in the name of their fucking party line. People need to grow up and realize that, Democrat, Republican, or other, you are first American, so act like it, it's called The United States for a reason. I fear it's too late though.

The very game revolving around government shutdown that ChristianS mentions highlights it perfectly. Both parties are perfectly happy to let the American government cease to function, so long as it's the other party that catches the heat. This is the behavior of a 5 year old who was told he couldn't get a new toy, not of a group of governors striving to improve the status of our nation and people.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23268 Posts
May 03 2017 02:18 GMT
#148725
It's really twisted that this murderer still hasn't been arrested.

The Balch Springs, Tex., police officer who shot and killed Jacob Edwards, a 15-year-old black high school freshman, has been fired after an internal affairs investigation concluded he violated multiple department policies, officials announced Tuesday night.

Officials identified the officer as Roy Oliver, and said he had been with the department since July 2011.

“After reviewing the findings I have made the decision to terminate Roy Oliver’s employment with the Balch Springs Police Department,” chief Jonathan Haber told reporters Tuesday evening. “My department will continue to be responsive, transparent and accountable.”

The shooting occurred around 11 p.m. Saturday evening, after officers got a call concerning intoxicated teenagers and arrived to find a house party. Department spokesman Pedro Gonzalez said that while officers were inside the house, they heard gunshots outside.

Officers left the house, and saw a vehicle backing into the street, Gonzalez said. Officers yelled for the driver to stop, but the vehicle began pulling forward to drive away. Police opened fire and a single bullet struck and killed Edwards, who was a passenger.

Police initially said that the vehicle, in which Edwards was riding in the passenger seat, reversed “aggressively” at the approaching officers, but later retracted that statement and said that body camera video showed that the vehicle was driving away from officers when Oliver opened fire.

Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 03 2017 02:38 GMT
#148726
Donald Trump is unlikely to finish his first term as President, according to the leading Democrat on the committee looking into alleged Russian interference in the US election.

Senator Mark Warner, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, privately told friends he puts the odds at two to one against the President completing a full term, the New Yorker reported.

Mr Warner's spokesperson did not deny he had made the remarks, but told the paper the Senator was "not referring specifically to the Russia investigation, but rather the totality of challenges the President is currently facing."

...

Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich said there was a "real and growing possibility Trump could be impeached" as he shared the New Yorker article on Twitter.

It comes after a source told The Guardian the investigation now has "specific, concrete and corroborative evidence of collusion."


www.yahoo.com
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 03 2017 02:42 GMT
#148727
The pettiness of this man child is worse than thought.

President Donald Trump was "directly involved" in the quest to find the staffer from the National Park Service who retweeted a comparative photo of his inauguration crowd with that of his predecessor, former President Barack Obama.

On the day of Trump's inauguration, the official account of the National Park Service retweeted a photo showing a crowd for Obama's event, compared to a smaller crowd that had gathered for Trump's that day. The retweet was quickly taken down.

According to a report from CBS News, who cited emails about the exchange released through the Freedom of Information Act, Trump contacted acting National Park Services director Mike Reynolds about the tweet.

"This has become a very sensitive issue, especially since the President has gotten directly involved and contacted Acting Director Mike Reynolds concerned about one of the images that was retweeted," National Park Services' Chief of Digital Strategy Tim Cash wrote to NPS Chief Information Security Officer Shaun Cavanaugh on January 21, according to CBS News.

The Washington Post first reported on the contact between Reynolds and Trump on January 26, but neither the White House nor the National Park Services confirmed it.

CBS News also reports that a staffer at NPS tried to find the person who retweeted the image by tracing IP addresses, and the agency became concerned the account was compromised.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
May 03 2017 02:43 GMT
#148728
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 02:53:09
May 03 2017 02:52 GMT
#148729
The push to repeal and replace Obamacare seemed likely to fail yet again as many House Republicans on Tuesday expressed unease with how the proposed legislation would affect people with pre-existing conditions.

In a reversal of the dynamic when Republicans last attempted to repeal Obamacare in March, the new plan has received backing from the Freedom Caucus, a recalcitrant group of arch-conservatives who are more often associated with spoiling the GOP leadership’s agenda than supporting it. This time around a significant number of the holdouts are moderates who are making a rare break with the leadership to oppose the legislation.

The current bill would allow states to waive provisions that require insurers to cover “essential health benefits”, which include maternity, prescription drug treatment and mental health care. It also allows removes protections that guarantee people with pre-existing medical conditions will not be charged higher rates.

Republicans disagree publicly about how the new amendment will affect Americans with pre-existing conditions. Paul Ryan, the House speaker, has stated that sicker Americans would be “better off” under the Republican healthcare plan, and promised that there are a “few layers of protections for pre-existing conditions in this bill”. But the bill is opposed by a coalition of influential advocacy groups, including the American Medical Association.

These changes have alienated previously loyal members of the Republican caucus. On Tuesday, Fred Upton of Michigan, the former chairman of the House energy and commerce committee, announced his opposition to the new version of the healthcare plan, saying an amendment added to appease conservatives “torpedoes” protections for people with pre-existing health conditions.

“I’m not at all comfortable with removing that protection,” Upton said during an interview on a local radio show, WHTC on Tuesday morning. He added: “I cannot support this bill with this provision in it.”

Upton is well respected among fellow Republicans for his expertise on healthcare policy, and has been a leader in past GOP efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare. His defection is viewed as a bad sign for the legislation’s prospects. At least 20 Republicans have publicly stated their opposition to the bill and several more remain undecided. House Republicans can only afford to lose 22 votes and pass the bill, assuming all Democrats oppose the measure.

Upton’s loss follows a surprising defection by Billy Long, a Republican from Missouri and a longtime supporter of the president, who said on Monday that he could not support the bill. “I have always stated that one of the few good things about Obamacare is that people with pre-existing conditions would be covered.”

While moving the bill to the right helped Republicans gain support from members of the Freedom Caucus, it further alienated moderates who are well aware that the current bill is likely to be drastically changed in the Senate.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42868 Posts
May 03 2017 02:54 GMT
#148730
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 03 2017 02:56 GMT
#148731
On May 03 2017 11:54 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.

Also straight up illegal. You can't collude with other nations to assist you in winning an election. That isn't a thing someone can do.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23268 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 02:57:18
May 03 2017 02:56 GMT
#148732
On May 03 2017 11:54 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.


Is it really? What part?

EDIT: Oh the idea that they colluded?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
May 03 2017 03:05 GMT
#148733
On May 03 2017 11:54 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.

Sure. And definitely worth investigating. But one can't help but laugh at how much praise those who cared most about alleged ties heaped on him with Syria - only to go right back to the old game as soon as it was clear it would be a one-off.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42868 Posts
May 03 2017 03:06 GMT
#148734
On May 03 2017 11:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2017 11:54 KwarK wrote:
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.


Is it really? What part?

EDIT: Oh the idea that they colluded?

It's not up for debate whether Russia intervened, that's entirely established at this point. The question is whether they intervened because Trump is a traitor who was colluding with them or whether they intervened because he's a wholly unqualified idiot and they thought he'd fuck the job up so badly that the United States would be less of a geopolitical threat. The latter is our best case scenario and as said before, it's still pretty fucking bad.

LegalLord is focusing on the former, which has not yet been proved, in order to give him something easy to discredit while ignoring that the latter, which is the least bad possibility of the already proven part, is still a huge problem.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 03:11:57
May 03 2017 03:06 GMT
#148735
Nations have been screwing with each other since ancient times. Spy networks and sabotage has always been a thing of intrigue. For instance, in the first unification wars in China, the Qin's intelligence and spy network is one of the main causes of the other states collapse. Fascinating stuff. Most of the time, they didn't have to do much themselves, but a gentle nudge in the wrong direction is all it takes. Like spies and corrupted officials convincing the Zhao king that a 2-3 year stalemate was blamed on a experienced general, when in fact that general was the one who was keeping the Qin at bay. So the king replaces the old general with a young, rash, inexperienced general. Guess what happened.
I post only when my brain works.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 03 2017 03:07 GMT
#148736
A woman is standing trial on disorderly conduct charges for laughing during U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions' confirmation hearing.

The trial for Desiree Fairooz, a 61-year-old protester with the group Code Pink, got underway yesterday in D.C. Superior Court after Fairooz declined to accept a plea bargain from prosecutors, who moved forward with the case.

Fairooz laughed after Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., who was introducing Sessions, said the then-junior senator from Alabama's history of "treating all Americans equally under the law is clear and well-documented," according to the Huffington Post. Video shot by a Huffington Post reporter, who said the laugh was not loud enough to be considered disruptive, is being used as evidence in the case.

Prosecutors contend that Fairooz's laugh constituted an attempt to "impede, disrupt, and disturb the orderly conduct" of Sessions' confirmation hearing, the Huffington Post reported.

Code Pink is supporting Fairooz and two other protesters charged with disorderly conduct. The protest group disseminated a statement from Fairooz on Monday.

"I felt it was my responsibility as a citizen to dissent at the confirmation hearing of Senator Jeff Sessions, a man who professes anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT policies, who has voted against several civil rights measures and who jokes about the white supremacist terrorist group the Ku Klux Klan," Fairooz said.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/05/woman_on_trial_for_laughing_at.html
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 03 2017 03:15 GMT
#148737
On May 03 2017 12:06 Reaper9 wrote:
Nations have been screwing with each other since ancient times. Spy networks and sabotage has always been a thing of intrigue. For instance, in the first unification wars in China, the Qin's intelligence and spy network is one of the main causes of the other states collapse. Fascinating stuff. Most of the time, they didn't have to do much themselves, but a gentle nudge in the wrong direction is all it takes. Like spies and corrupted officials convincing the Zhao king that a 2-3 year stalemate was blamed on a experienced general, when in fact that general was the one who was keeping the Qin at bay. So the king replaces the old general with a young, rash, inexperienced general. Guess what happened.

Pretty sure that isn't a legal defense. "People have murdered before and more than me" is not going to win anyone a not guilt verdict in a murder case.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-03 03:24:52
May 03 2017 03:20 GMT
#148738
Yea, I'm not arguing that as a legal defense. But there are still people who think that other nations interfering with us is impossible regarding the United States. I would know, I've had co-workers and friends tell me that they did not think Russia had any hand with what is currently going on. And on this site, you see plenty of staunch denial as well. I'm putting it out there that there is a myriad of factors that has us now in this clusterfuck of a presidency. Everyone had a role to play in this, and we need to clean it up, together as Americans.
I post only when my brain works.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
May 03 2017 03:20 GMT
#148739
On May 03 2017 12:06 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2017 11:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 03 2017 11:54 KwarK wrote:
On May 03 2017 11:43 LegalLord wrote:
Well overall we're right back to wondering if Trump is a Russian plant. In light of that, it's hard to say that we accomplished anything with the Syria bombing other than to give the hawks something to talk about.

Or, alternatively, there are problems with the Russian government directly intervening in US elections beyond whether or not the candidate they favoured is a plant. Obviously a plant would be bad but even if there is absolutely nothing beyond what we already know for sure, it's still pretty fucking bad.


Is it really? What part?

EDIT: Oh the idea that they colluded?

It's not up for debate whether Russia intervened, that's entirely established at this point. The question is whether they intervened because Trump is a traitor who was colluding with them or whether they intervened because he's a wholly unqualified idiot and they thought he'd fuck the job up so badly that the United States would be less of a geopolitical threat. The latter is our best case scenario and as said before, it's still pretty fucking bad.

LegalLord is focusing on the former, which has not yet been proved, in order to give him something easy to discredit while ignoring that the latter, which is the least bad possibility of the already proven part, is still a huge problem.

We know Trump is a buffoon with no particular respect for doing what he is supposed to do in order to avoid pointless conflict. That's not really news. I didn't want him, you didn't want him, even the people that wanted him mostly either regret it or see it as a reluctant choice, but ultimately we're stuck with him, so there's fuck all we can do about having a moron in charge.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 03 2017 03:28 GMT
#148740
On May 03 2017 12:07 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
A woman is standing trial on disorderly conduct charges for laughing during U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions' confirmation hearing.

The trial for Desiree Fairooz, a 61-year-old protester with the group Code Pink, got underway yesterday in D.C. Superior Court after Fairooz declined to accept a plea bargain from prosecutors, who moved forward with the case.

Fairooz laughed after Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., who was introducing Sessions, said the then-junior senator from Alabama's history of "treating all Americans equally under the law is clear and well-documented," according to the Huffington Post. Video shot by a Huffington Post reporter, who said the laugh was not loud enough to be considered disruptive, is being used as evidence in the case.

Prosecutors contend that Fairooz's laugh constituted an attempt to "impede, disrupt, and disturb the orderly conduct" of Sessions' confirmation hearing, the Huffington Post reported.

Code Pink is supporting Fairooz and two other protesters charged with disorderly conduct. The protest group disseminated a statement from Fairooz on Monday.

"I felt it was my responsibility as a citizen to dissent at the confirmation hearing of Senator Jeff Sessions, a man who professes anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT policies, who has voted against several civil rights measures and who jokes about the white supremacist terrorist group the Ku Klux Klan," Fairooz said.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/05/woman_on_trial_for_laughing_at.html

Sessions is turning out to be the exact power abusing petty bitch that we all knew he would be. An old man with an ax to grind. He is going to spend the next 4 years doing exactly this sort of stuff and ignoring any real civil rights abuses.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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