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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
March 29 2017 23:46 GMT
#144441
Don't worry guys. Ken is Chuck's alternate name.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 29 2017 23:47 GMT
#144442
remember when athletic sex scandals got everybody mad?

USA Gymnastics, the national governing body for the Olympic sport, was a no-show Tuesday at a Congressional hearing into its handling of sexual abuse allegations — drawing a sharp rebuke from one lawmaker.

"I'm deeply disappointed they've sent a statement but no witness to question," Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., said.

"If they really cared, they would be here," he added. "They have to answer for what happened here."

USA Gymnastics told NBC News that officials did not appear at the hearing because of pending lawsuits spawned by the sex-abuse scandal surrounding former Olympics doctor Larry Nassar.

"The health and well-being of our athletes of all skill levels and ages is of the highest priority," the organization said in response to Blumenthal's comments.

"We believe one instance of child abuse — whether at a school, church or gym — is one too many, and we are angered when any child has been harmed during his or her athletic career."

USA Gymnastics said it endorses the legislation that was the subject of the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing — a bill sponsored by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., that would require all Olympic sports bodies to immediately report accusations of abuse to police.

While USA Gymnastics bowed out, the committee did hear from a trio of elite gymnasts who say they were abused and that a mandatory-reporting law would prevent other young athletes from being preyed upon.



http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/usa-gymnastics-blasted-skipping-senate-hearing-sex-abuse-n739506
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 30 2017 00:09 GMT
#144443
On March 30 2017 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2017 01:20 LegalLord wrote:
On March 30 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:
On March 30 2017 01:07 Danglars wrote:
On March 30 2017 00:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Watching Danglars and xDaunt go from disgusted/dismissive with Trump to Stockholm syndrome has been a bizarre experience. It looks like actual Stockholm syndrome.

Part of me wonders what portion of this phenomena is a result of a 2 party system and the deep feelings of tribalism it creates. Even things as simple as putting on colored jerseys while playing sports as a child are enough to make someone seriously proud of their team. It's interesting how the draw towards connection and alliance for the sake of protection has sprung into such a dysfunctional system.

Part of me has wondered if our country having even 3 different parties would largely derail the tribalism I've seen. To not be so stuck on the idea that it is "either me or them" and to instead have other options would perhaps make people more collaborative and willing to negotiate? I wonder if people feel like they are already committed to their party. Or something. I have no idea. But this isn't confined to Danglars and xDaunt. I know a couple people who went from laughably dismissing Trump to kind of identifying with him and using his persona in the same way people cheer for sports teams. I can totally see some people who give up a part of themselves for the sake of being a part of his power.
We don't always get to pick our symbols of resistance to an order bent leftward, and in that case Trump is a poor symbol.


This point is fair enough. Its the reason I supported Clinton. Bernie lost and nothing was going to change that. I pray Clinton doesn't run again, but I did not hesitate to support her against Trump.

The right-wingers here probably feel similar, albeit with more sympathy towards actual conservative policy.


I think the societal transformation/progress facilitated by the internet made people outgrow their parties. The internet makes it really easy to determine what kinds of thoughts resonate with you, then gives you the ability to be completely surrounded by those ideologies. People who, in 2008, were pretty enthusiastic about the environment and income inequality, may have ended up Bernie supporters in 2016. Before the internet, maybe a bit more moderate and totally fine with Clinton. Same deal with people who were totally cool with GWB but would not stomach the idea of anyone but a transformative tea party candidate in 2016.

In many ways, I think the internet accelerates societal change through a much faster method of what I will call "idea refinement" where broad ideas are sanded down into specific, impassioned positions.


edit: If I may respond to Danglars again: The thing that sticks out to me as stockholm syndrome isn't so much the support of Trump over Clinton as much as it is Putin/Russia favorables after Trump. The polls speak for themselves. Republicans like Mccain didn't used to be so uncommon. The republican party was very tough on Russia for a very long time and that showed no signs of letting up. It wasn't until Putin was so strongly elevated as a strong man by Trump that people started to chest best for Putin too. Trump, purely by being the GOP candidate, totally reversed a bunch of people's deeply held beliefs regarding Russia. I don't think all these people are free thinkers. I think the momentum behind "my party's candidate" changed their minds against their will, in a way.

Yes, the polls have been a disgrace. Just because media figures and the Democratic Party have been making much ado about nothing does not mean Putin and Russia are some benevolent country in Europe and Asia.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-30 00:19:32
March 30 2017 00:18 GMT
#144444
it's not much ado about nothing, it's much ado about a little/moderate something; a significant difference.

and as per the original point, it is interesting how much the perceptions of russia changed based on to who's advantage it was.
when you say the polls have been a disgrace, you mean the people changing their mind abotu russia? or something about the polls themselves?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 30 2017 00:56 GMT
#144445
President Donald Trump’s approval rating continued to drop Wednesday in Gallup’s daily presidential poll.

According to the polling company, 35 percent of respondents approved of Trump’s performance in office, down from the 36 percent approval published on Monday and Tuesday. Fifty-nine percent of respondents disapproved of his performance, beating the previous high of 57 percent on March 18.

Trump’s net approval is now at negative 24 percent, down from record of negative 21 percent set on March 18.

Gallup arrives at its numbers by averaging its previous three days of polling. Wednesday’s numbers reflect polling conducted since Sunday, two days after House Republican leadership pulled a bill to repeal and replace Obamacare, citing lack of support within their own caucus.

As Gallup’s editor-in-chief noted Monday, Trump has surpassed the record low approval ratings in both the Obama and Clinton presidencies: 38 and 37 percent, respectively. Former President George W. Bush hit his low, of 25 percent, in late 2008.

Gallup tracks the percentage of Americans who approve and disapprove of the President’s performance in office daily via telephone interviews with approximately 1,500 national adults, according to the company. The poll’s margin of error is 3 percentage points.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
March 30 2017 01:34 GMT
#144446
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-30 01:53:40
March 30 2017 01:49 GMT
#144447
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

that works better when they're good people than if they're bad people.
it takes two to collaborate.

the problem of course is if the nature of the ties means that actions not in the best interest of america and its citizens are being taken, which is the big question in need of and being investigated.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43536 Posts
March 30 2017 01:55 GMT
#144448
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

The allegation is that there is a serious conflict of interest within the American government. People don't object to peace with Russia, they object to senior politicians being accountable to foreign interests rather than the American people. The basic idea of democracy is that the politicians are held to account by the electorate at the ballot box and therefore the politicians must serve the people or be replaced by others who will. The issue with Trump is that a foreign power intervened in the American election to help propel him into the job and so we must ask what, if anything, he offered them in return.

Not that you'll understand any of this, but that's the issue.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
March 30 2017 02:03 GMT
#144449
On March 30 2017 10:55 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

The allegation is that there is a serious conflict of interest within the American government. People don't object to peace with Russia, they object to senior politicians being accountable to foreign interests rather than the American people. The basic idea of democracy is that the politicians are held to account by the electorate at the ballot box and therefore the politicians must serve the people or be replaced by others who will. The issue with Trump is that a foreign power intervened in the American election to help propel him into the job and so we must ask what, if anything, he offered them in return.

Not that you'll understand any of this, but that's the issue.


It is generally not a good idea to insult people if you want people to follow your logic. It doesn't move the conversation in anywhere positive.

I understand your worries. But until Trump prioritize Russian gains over American gains, there is no reason to have fear monger.

Meanwhile everybody needs stay vigilant and investigate on their own instead of reading articles that have "a poll says, or a study shows".
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-30 02:16:24
March 30 2017 02:15 GMT
#144450
investigating on your own is good; however there is simply not enough time to adequately investigate many things on your own, and of course, many people don't have the requisite skills or competence to investigate on their own in a decent way, on a great many topics.

fear mongering is unnecessary aye; but there's plenty of reason to be concerned. also, part of counterespionage is being kinda paranoid and careful.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-30 02:28:01
March 30 2017 02:27 GMT
#144451
I'll just quote Kasparov here. but definitely needs a full investigation.

"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
March 30 2017 02:34 GMT
#144452
You know what Trump surrogate has really vanished into the wind? Giuliani. Pretty weird that I haven't been hearing batshit crazy things from him in the last couple of months
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43536 Posts
March 30 2017 02:44 GMT
#144453
On March 30 2017 11:03 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2017 10:55 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

The allegation is that there is a serious conflict of interest within the American government. People don't object to peace with Russia, they object to senior politicians being accountable to foreign interests rather than the American people. The basic idea of democracy is that the politicians are held to account by the electorate at the ballot box and therefore the politicians must serve the people or be replaced by others who will. The issue with Trump is that a foreign power intervened in the American election to help propel him into the job and so we must ask what, if anything, he offered them in return.

Not that you'll understand any of this, but that's the issue.


It is generally not a good idea to insult people if you want people to follow your logic. It doesn't move the conversation in anywhere positive.

I understand your worries. But until Trump prioritize Russian gains over American gains, there is no reason to have fear monger.

Meanwhile everybody needs stay vigilant and investigate on their own instead of reading articles that have "a poll says, or a study shows".

None of the links have been studies or polls. They've been things like a Russian oligarch bailing Trump out from bankruptcy by overpaying for a house Trump had been unable to sell to give him a cash injection (similar to when Trump's casino got bailed out by a large purchase of casino chips which were then taken out of the casino and not gambled with).

The Trump-Russia links aren't based on idle speculation or rumour, the only thing lacking is a smoking gun.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
March 30 2017 03:36 GMT
#144454
Giuliani overplayed his hand when he gleefully discussed FBI agents leaking him information about the Weiner emails, especially since Trump is now the anti-leak.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
March 30 2017 03:54 GMT
#144455
On March 30 2017 12:36 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Giuliani overplayed his hand when he gleefully discussed FBI agents leaking him information about the Weiner emails, especially since Trump is now the anti-leak.


Plus his quote on the "Muslim Ban" getting thrown in their face didn't help I'd imagine. He'll be back when Hillary makes her run in NYC.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 30 2017 05:05 GMT
#144456
Let's see if NC Republicans can actually stick to it this time.

North Carolina state legislators announced late Wednesday they had reached a deal with Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper to repeal the controversial HB2 law, which restricted transgender bathroom access in the state.

Senate President Pro Tem Phil Berger and House Speaker Tim Moore, according to local reports, said at a late-night press conference that House Bill 142, which would repeal House Bill 2, would be re-introduced to the Senate floor Thursday morning.

“We have reached an agreement with the governor," said Berger. “We have agreed with the governor that we will take no questions tonight.”

The pair of legislators gave no further details of the repeal measure, but asserted that the bill "will pass" when it hits the floor of the legislature Thursday.

If the repeal is successful, it would shutter a hotly contested law enacted under Republican Gov. Pat McCrory that prevented individuals from entering government facilities that matched their gender identity.

The law also limits discrimination protections on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals.



http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/north-carolina-bathroom-law-236674
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
March 30 2017 08:14 GMT
#144457
On March 30 2017 11:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2017 11:03 RealityIsKing wrote:
On March 30 2017 10:55 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

The allegation is that there is a serious conflict of interest within the American government. People don't object to peace with Russia, they object to senior politicians being accountable to foreign interests rather than the American people. The basic idea of democracy is that the politicians are held to account by the electorate at the ballot box and therefore the politicians must serve the people or be replaced by others who will. The issue with Trump is that a foreign power intervened in the American election to help propel him into the job and so we must ask what, if anything, he offered them in return.

Not that you'll understand any of this, but that's the issue.


It is generally not a good idea to insult people if you want people to follow your logic. It doesn't move the conversation in anywhere positive.

I understand your worries. But until Trump prioritize Russian gains over American gains, there is no reason to have fear monger.

Meanwhile everybody needs stay vigilant and investigate on their own instead of reading articles that have "a poll says, or a study shows".

None of the links have been studies or polls. They've been things like a Russian oligarch bailing Trump out from bankruptcy by overpaying for a house Trump had been unable to sell to give him a cash injection (similar to when Trump's casino got bailed out by a large purchase of casino chips which were then taken out of the casino and not gambled with).

The Trump-Russia links aren't based on idle speculation or rumour, the only thing lacking is a smoking gun.


No I'm saying in general.

Yeah those things you've listed are very suspicious but let's hope for the best that Trump is putting Americans first.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22073 Posts
March 30 2017 08:18 GMT
#144458
On March 30 2017 17:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2017 11:44 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2017 11:03 RealityIsKing wrote:
On March 30 2017 10:55 KwarK wrote:
On March 30 2017 10:34 RealityIsKing wrote:
As long as the ties with Russia doesn't negatively affect the lives of American citizens, there is not much wrong with having Russian ties.

We need to see our neighbors as collaborators instead of competitors.

The allegation is that there is a serious conflict of interest within the American government. People don't object to peace with Russia, they object to senior politicians being accountable to foreign interests rather than the American people. The basic idea of democracy is that the politicians are held to account by the electorate at the ballot box and therefore the politicians must serve the people or be replaced by others who will. The issue with Trump is that a foreign power intervened in the American election to help propel him into the job and so we must ask what, if anything, he offered them in return.

Not that you'll understand any of this, but that's the issue.


It is generally not a good idea to insult people if you want people to follow your logic. It doesn't move the conversation in anywhere positive.

I understand your worries. But until Trump prioritize Russian gains over American gains, there is no reason to have fear monger.

Meanwhile everybody needs stay vigilant and investigate on their own instead of reading articles that have "a poll says, or a study shows".

None of the links have been studies or polls. They've been things like a Russian oligarch bailing Trump out from bankruptcy by overpaying for a house Trump had been unable to sell to give him a cash injection (similar to when Trump's casino got bailed out by a large purchase of casino chips which were then taken out of the casino and not gambled with).

The Trump-Russia links aren't based on idle speculation or rumour, the only thing lacking is a smoking gun.


No I'm saying in general.

Yeah those things you've listed are very suspicious but let's hope for the best that Trump is putting Americans first.

"Its very suspicious but lets just hope that a man who has been proven to be a compulsive liar is telling the truth".

How about we have an independent investigation into finding out if Trump is putting Americans first?
Well... not first, the best we can hope for is second after Trumps own pockets.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
March 30 2017 08:27 GMT
#144459
Don't you guys think that the Trump-Russia issue is overplayed? Wouldn't it be better to attack Trump on actual policy than this stuff? Maybe if it was an otherwise sane presidency, then it would make sense to nosy around the Russia ties, but as it is know, there are plenty issues with more immediate practical impact that should be in focus. It almost seems like a clever smokescreen (unless it backfires too far).
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
March 30 2017 08:33 GMT
#144460
On March 30 2017 17:27 opisska wrote:
Don't you guys think that the Trump-Russia issue is overplayed? Wouldn't it be better to attack Trump on actual policy than this stuff? Maybe if it was an otherwise sane presidency, then it would make sense to nosy around the Russia ties, but as it is know, there are plenty issues with more immediate practical impact that should be in focus. It almost seems like a clever smokescreen (unless it backfires too far).

The leftists and the right-wingers would agree with you. Those who bet the farm on Clinton still need some desperate validation of the delusion that the race was stolen from them, though, so this will continue until the end of the presidency.

Though to be fair, they basically attack him on literally anything and everything. Russia is just one of many angles of attack.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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