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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 24 2017 14:05 GMT
#139161
Nothing helps you in an investigation like openly attacking the agency conducting it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 24 2017 14:13 GMT
#139162
WASHINGTON (AP) — White House chief of staff Reince Priebus asked a top FBI official to dispute media reports that President Donald Trump's campaign advisers were frequently in touch with Russian intelligence agents during the election, a White House official said late Thursday.

The official said Priebus' request came after the FBI told the White House it believed a New York Times report last week describing those contacts was not accurate. As of Thursday, the FBI had not stated that position publicly and there was no indication it planned to.

The New York Times reported that U.S. agencies had intercepted phone calls last year between Russian intelligence officials and members of Trump's 2016 campaign team.

Priebus' discussion with FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe sparked outrage among some Democrats, who said he was violating policies intended to limit communications between the law enforcement agency and the White House on pending investigations.

"The White House is simply not permitted to pressure the FBI to make public statements about a pending investigation of the president and his advisers," said Michigan Rep. John Conyers, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee.

A 2009 memo from then-Attorney General Eric Holder said the Justice Department is to advise the White House on pending criminal or civil investigations "only when it is important for the performance of the president's duties and appropriate from a law enforcement perspective." When communication has to occur, the memo said, it should involve only the highest-level officials from the White House and the Justice Department.

The White House official would not comment when asked if the administration was concerned about the appropriateness of Priebus' communications with McCabe. The official was not authorized to disclose the matter publicly and insisted on anonymity.

The FBI would not say whether it had contacted the White House about the veracity of the Times report.

CNN first reported that Priebus had asked the FBI to weigh in on the matter.

Trump has been shadowed by questions about potential ties to Russia since winning the election. U.S. intelligence agencies have also concluded that Russia meddled in the campaign to help Trump defeat Democrat Hillary Clinton.

Last week, Trump fired national security adviser Michael Flynn because he misled Vice President Mike Pence and other White House officials about his contacts with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. Flynn, who was interviewed by the FBI about his contacts, is said to have talked with the ambassador multiple times during the transition, including about U.S. sanctions policy.

Still, Trump and his advisers have denied contacts with Russian officials during the election. Last week, Trump said "nobody that I know of" spoke with Russian intelligence agents during the campaign.

Priebus alluded to his contacts with the FBI over the weekend, telling Fox News that "the top levels of the intelligence community" have assured him that the allegations of campaign contacts with Russia were "not only grossly overstated, but also wrong."

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said Priebus' comments opened the door for FBI Director James Comey to discuss the bureau's investigation publicly.

"If the White House chief of staff can make public claims about the supposed conclusions of an FBI investigation, then Director Comey can come clean with the American people," Wyden said.

Justin Shur, a former Justice Department public corruption prosecutor, said it was imperative that Justice Department investigations not be swayed by political considerations.

"As a general matter, investigations and prosecutions should be about gathering the facts and the evidence and applying the law," Shur said.

During the campaign, Trump and other Republicans vigorously criticized a meeting between then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch and former President Bill Clinton, husband of Trump's general election opponent. The meeting came as the FBI — which is overseen by the Justice Department — was investigating Hillary Clinton's use of a private email address and personal internet server.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
February 24 2017 14:35 GMT
#139163
It's interesting to see the parallels between the DNC leaks and the current government leaks. The first almost certainly spawned the second, and the two sides are reversed in the "contents of the leak vs. leaking is bad" game. It should perhaps be a warning as to what relying on leaks will lead to.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
February 24 2017 14:35 GMT
#139164
I'm not sure how ridiculing the abilities of FBI fits into the 'we will make America safe again' narrative. Everything has to be about safety continuously yet he badmouths one of the biggest organisations responsible for safety.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 24 2017 14:55 GMT
#139165
The leaks are also a product of the administration’s thinly veiled aggression towards the CIA/FBI/NSA. The people who work there don’t feel like the White House has their back, so why take extra effort to plug leaks. The more they push back against the leaks publicly and attack the agencies members, the more likely the information will get out there.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 15:04:31
February 24 2017 15:03 GMT
#139166
Live in TN, the leaves on the trees were growing last week and even the tulips in the flower beds started shwoing in January... I'm surprised we haven't had tornadoes this past week.

There's something about a warm February day that reminds you that something just isn't right. It gives you that nagging feeling that maybe global warming is real after all.

February 2016 has featured prolonged warm weather the likes of which many areas have not seen before, or have only experienced on rare occasions.

Taken as a whole, the month-to-date in the U.S. has seen a ridiculously lopsided ratio of daily record highs to daily record lows, which is a key indicator of short-term weather variability and, over the longer term, human-caused climate change.

For individual days' worth of warm weather, you mainly have the jet stream to thank. This current of fast-moving air at about 35,000 feet above the ground has been steering a never-ending series storms into the West Coast, where California's mountains have picked up a crazy 500 inches of snow so far, and then moved across the U.S. in a way that has cut off flow of frigid air from the Arctic.

While transient weather variability is playing a key role here, the widespread record warmth across the U.S. so far this year is part of a long-term trend toward more warm temperature records versus cold ones.

This February offers a vivid illustration of this trend.

Through Feb. 22, daily record highs have been blowing away daily record lows by a greater than 100-to-1 ratio, which, if it holds for a few more days, would itself set a record. (Although it might need an asterisk, considering the short calendar month.)

And it's not the daily records that are most impressive, but rather the number of monthly records that are being tied or broken from the Gulf Coast all the way to the Midwest and northeastward into Canada. During the past week alone (not including Feb. 23), there were 736 daily record highs set or tied in the U.S., compared to zero daily record lows for the same period.

Even more startling is the number of record warm overnight temperatures set or tied in the past seven days, which total a whopping 940. There were no record cold overnight low temperatures set or tied during the same period.

And the monthly records, which are far harder to break than daily milestones, are astounding.

According to the National Center for Environmental Information (NCEI) in Asheville, North Carolina, February has seen 248 monthly record highs set or tied, along with 203 records set or tied for the warmest overnight minimum temperature. In comparison, there were no monthly cold temperature records set or tied through Feb. 22.

These figures do not include records that have been broken on Thursday, which so far include 69 degrees Fahrenheit in Albany, 63 in Toronto, Canada, and 62 in Burlington, Vermont, both of which were monthly records.

On Wednesday, the record warmth was centered across the Midwest, where the three major cities in Wisconsin (Milwaukee, Madison and Green Bay), all saw temperatures hit record highs for not just February, but for any month during meteorological winter, which encompasses the months of December, January and February.

Milwaukee, for example, broke its monthly all-time record high for February when the temperature reached 71 degrees Fahrenheit, and Madison set a monthly record with a high of 68 degrees Fahrenheit.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
February 24 2017 15:12 GMT
#139167
On February 24 2017 23:35 LegalLord wrote:
It's interesting to see the parallels between the DNC leaks and the current government leaks. The first almost certainly spawned the second, and the two sides are reversed in the "contents of the leak vs. leaking is bad" game. It should perhaps be a warning as to what relying on leaks will lead to.


Never bought the whole Russian leaked the Hillary Email thing to undermine America thing.

If Russian are able to get into DNC server, they can release GOP stuff too.

If anything, it would have been more damaging. That would create way more chaos within the American society, would render Americans even more divided.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 24 2017 15:14 GMT
#139168
This should give SNL more fodder to use.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 15:33:08
February 24 2017 15:21 GMT
#139169
Trump starting his speech at CPAC.

EDIT #1:



EDIT #2:

Okay...

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
February 24 2017 15:33 GMT
#139170
On February 25 2017 00:12 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2017 23:35 LegalLord wrote:
It's interesting to see the parallels between the DNC leaks and the current government leaks. The first almost certainly spawned the second, and the two sides are reversed in the "contents of the leak vs. leaking is bad" game. It should perhaps be a warning as to what relying on leaks will lead to.


Never bought the whole Russian leaked the Hillary Email thing to undermine America thing.

If Russian are able to get into DNC server, they can release GOP stuff too.

If anything, it would have been more damaging. That would create way more chaos within the American society, would render Americans even more divided.

Eh, if the goal were maximum chaos, I think they achieved it. Democrats hate Russia, Democrats hate Trump, Republicans used to hate Russia but are now evenly split, Trump hates everybody, the illusion of caring about rules and norms has been shattered.

To be fair, though, for the DNC leaks - Russia may have provided the leaks, but the Democrats provided the DNC.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 24 2017 15:41 GMT
#139171
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 15:44:02
February 24 2017 15:43 GMT
#139172
Releasing RNC hacks wouldn't have added much chaos after the primaries-unless there was in reality some weird pro-Trump conspiracy thing going on behind the scenes, which seems about as likely as pigs flying. All his supporters already believed it was rigged against him anyway.

The whole reason the DNC hacks were so chaotic was because the party's golden girl won. Like, if Rubio had won or something, I think there's a decent chance we would have seen RNC leaks similar to the DNC ones.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
February 24 2017 15:45 GMT
#139173
On February 25 2017 00:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Trump starting his speech at CPAC.

EDIT #1:

https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/835149237058859008

EDIT #2:

Okay...

https://twitter.com/TimAlberta/status/835149059610591232


People who say the media are the enemy of the people:

- Dictators and fascists
- Donald Trump
- No one else
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 24 2017 15:47 GMT
#139174
On February 25 2017 00:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/toddgillman/status/835151098797309957

Attacking anonymous sources is going to go over real well. Popcorn for the weekend!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 15:57:06
February 24 2017 15:51 GMT
#139175
On February 24 2017 15:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 24 2017 14:34 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2017 13:37 kwizach wrote:
On February 24 2017 13:10 Nevuk wrote:
On February 24 2017 13:00 kwizach wrote:
On February 24 2017 12:40 Nevuk wrote:
On February 24 2017 12:27 kwizach wrote:
On February 24 2017 12:11 Nevuk wrote:
If Tom Perez becomes DNC chair, I will be convinced that the democrats are trying to run Hillary in 2020.

What, specifically, do you not like about Tom Perez' record?

It's more who he's associated with than his specific record that bothers me, actually. He's endorsed by all the people in the party who failed. Failed is a large word, I know. Obama accomplished a lot, but most of his accomplishments are about to be demolished

I just want Hillary to go away so right wing people will stop linking nonsensical articles amongst themselves and others like this nonsense (dated today, apparently) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4251046/Illegal-Clinton-fundraiser-tape-fearing-life.html to redirect attention from things that actually matter.

So basically you have zero grievances with Perez except that he hasn't been endorsed by Sanders. Thanks.

Eh, while it would help, it's not the only reason. Ellison does have a lot of problems himself, but I do agree more strongly with his political views as well. I liked what I heard of the Indiana mayor more than either Perez or Ellison, but I really doubt they have the support to actually win.

I have no problem with you preferring Ellison or Buttigieg over Perez. What I do have a problem with is ridiculously over-the-top and caricatural comments like "if Tom Perez becomes DNC chair, I will be convinced that the democrats are trying to run Hillary in 2020", where someone with a stellar record of defending civil rights and workers' rights gets smeared nonsensically because he wasn't endorsed by Sanders.

It seems we are, in many ways, in a post-fact world where the actual record of the candidates is irrelevant to the public perception, because the public is too lazy or stupid to actually look at their records. I can't exactly excuse myself from this criticism – I haven't looked much at their records either – but my reaction is to think "I'm not informed enough about these candidates to have a preference between them." But the narrative being sold by everyone from GH to Donald Trump is that the Democrats lost in 2016 because they didn't "get it," and those same Democrats that still don't "get it" are backing Perez. Ellison is someone who "gets it," and he's backed by people that "get it," so if the Democrats don't pick him, they're doubling down on not "getting it" and they deserve to lose for the rest of eternity.

What's that narrative based on? I seldom see actual facts presented backing it up. From what little I've gathered about these candidates, none of them are particularly "establishment." Perez' experience is with labor, right? Isn't the WWC what everybody says the Democrats forgot about in 2016? Wouldn't someone with expertise in labor be well-positioned to correct that error? It seems like even if we buy that the DNC lost 2016 because they were a bunch of old establishment fuddy-duddies who didn't "get it," it's perfectly conceivable that none of the candidates are really in line with those fuddy-duddies because anybody with an internet connection has read by now how those fuddy-duddies lost the election, and none of them are interested in repeating that experience.

But if you view everything in a populist/establishment dichotomy, you have to find a way to impose those labels on the current race. That means you have to figure out which one is establishment, and which one is populist, so people just look at the endorsements and decide from that. Biden, Obama, etc. endorsed Perez? Oh, he's establishment then. Sanders endorsed Ellison? Oh, okay, he's the populist that "gets it." Given the lack of nuance people have applied to explaining the 2016 election, it's not surprising that a similar lack of nuance is being applied to how the DNC should adjust.

GH's point (if I understand it correctly) is that it doesn't matter if everybody's an idiot for thinking Perez is an establishment fuddy-duddy, because even if they're wrong, they'll still perceive his victory as the DNC sticking its head in the sand. Then the GHs of the world will continue with their protest votes because they insist the Democrats haven't learned their lesson yet, the Trumps of the world will keep riding this situation to electoral victories, and the GHs will turn around each time and say "See Democrats? You clearly didn't learn your lesson, because you lost again." It's a vicious cycle, a self-fulfilling prophesy, but the only way the Democrats can break it is to completely cave to what these people want. If the Democrats unanimously crowned Bernie Sanders the Honorable King of Democrats tomorrow, and in every action imitated the Sanders campaign, at least nobody could accuse them of disregarding Sanders voters. Then when they lost the next election the Clinton supporters could come out of the woodwork with "I told you so's" about how Sanders voters are wingnuts and their message lacks the broad appeal to win general elections.

Of course in either of these scenarios they lose elections. As far as I can tell the only way for them to win elections is to break this narrative. As long as they allow their candidates' qualifications to become completely sidelined by some variant of an us vs. them narrative, it won't matter who they run against someone, it will just matter who convinces more people their side is the "us" and the other side is the "them." Trump, for all his faults, is really good at that sort of thing. When you get down to actual facts – the kind that take careful, time-consuming research – he fails.


I mostly think you at least get the political reality. The bold part is wrong, I don't like Perez for a lot of reasons one just from last night was his piss poor response to the question about TPP.

He could have either stuck by the administration's/his position on TPP or he could have said he was wrong to support it. Instead, he tried to split the baby and blame his position on the administration basically calling himself out as dishonest and throwing the administration under the bus at the same time.

Now I don't like his vocal support of TPP, but that's not even the point, he took a softball about the TPP and managed to botch it so bad he made both himself and the administration look bad.

Both Ellison and Perez basically said they would "publicly be neutral" while Ellison openly said that he would privately try to discourage primaries of Democrats like Claire McCaskill or Joe Manchin (Trump's most reliable Democrat supporter). That's the essence of "not getting it". That's why this whole thing is so ridiculous, Ellison has been increasingly aligning himself with the acceptable (within the DNC) views, alienating the more stubborn left wing Democrats. The left wing of the Democratic party is trying just to settle for someone who at least pays them convincing lip service, even if he's mostly caved on the most contentious stuff, and Democrats are like "but look at his resume, Perez is the best candidate". Like holy crap, how can people still not see this?

EDIT: But lets be real, the DNC isn't neutral, they're already helping McCaskill fund-raise and you can be sure they wouldn't offer the same to a challenger in the primary. The DNC isn't neutral and they'd have a better chance just stopping with the "it's our job to be neutral" and just cut straight to the "we'll pick and choose which Democrats we want to win primaries based on our discretion" and just try to sell that straight up. Instead of lying to us, then saying the opposite in the same breath and pretending like we didn't hear the second part.

On February 24 2017 14:39 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2017 13:58 Nevuk wrote:
I'm more of a single issue person. If Perez endorsed a public healthcare option, I would be for him. I've honestly not heard a full throated endorsement of it by Ellison either, which is somewhat worrying to me. I don't even have an objection to corporations having influence on the party. I have an objection to corporations in industries which shouldn't be entirely private in the first place having influence. If something is essential for a person to be an effective, working member of society then it should be accessible to all members of society. There are more things that fit this category than just healthcare, but healthcare is one of the most essential things and that our society treats it as a luxury is absurd. If the business model of health insurance companies could not accommodate the existence of a public option, then they should not be a business.


so as a single issue public option voter can you back up why you prefer the public option in particular as a good way to improve healthcare in the united states compared to a various other systems in places like switzerland, germany, the netherlands, the UK, australia, singapore, taiwan, or even ones proposed by various healthcare groups? and how would you implement a public option given the existing healthcare infrastructure that we have?



Democrats need to take a page from Republicans and worry about the how later, win the house, senate, and presidency running on bringing medicare for all period. Of course they should actually have a plan (basically boils down to removing the age cap on medicare and deciding how to pay for it, probably trade premiums for taxes) when they actually win. The private market wouldn't disappear overnight, it would just be focused on people who pay the tax and still have money left over to pay a premium for premium health service (nicer buildings and furnishings, prestigious doctors, etc...)

Democrats are repeating old mistakes if they try to hash out the details of medicare for all (negotiating with themselves) before they even have a path to being able to make it happen.

You want them to lose, have a discussion about the best way to bring about medicare-for-all, you want to win and actually get it, hammer into people's head that the reason they put off going to the doctor, the reason their uncle/father/mother/aunt/etc... died from that totally treatable condition is because they couldn't afford insurance and couldn't afford to wait in the ER for hours only to not receive any helpful treatment. And the only reason we haven't joined the rest of the "first world" in guaranteeing healthcare as a right is the damn Republicans.

What's sad is that I don't actually support doing that, but that's the only way Democrats are going to win, and here I am having to make the case to them about how it's unfortunate that they don't like it (like Hillary's campaign finance was for me and others) but it's something you're going to have to accept if you want to win.

In the most reductive terms I can think of, Democrats are playing chicken with Millennials who are at the "Give me a Democratic party worth a damn or give me death" stage. Without getting into the merit of their position, the reality is that they don't know how bad "bad" can be and they are still in the invincible stage, Democrats will lose this game. It's time for them to be the bigger person and accept the superficial defeat.

Or just act like the off duty cop that tried to murder a kid and tell everyone that he feared for his life because you didn't want to look like you lost the confrontation.


i like how an attempt at a policy discussion became bashing Democrats for actually trying to have a plan instead of catering to a lower common denominator. (the lowest common denominator is reserved for a different party).

and seriously, comparing that to police violence? that's just fucked up. i hope i don't need to say anything else about that.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 24 2017 15:55 GMT
#139176
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 16:00:35
February 24 2017 15:59 GMT
#139177
Hopefully he makes a state-owned news channel: "The People's Media" which represents the American people.

All other news is banned, of course.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Krikkitone
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1451 Posts
February 24 2017 16:01 GMT
#139178
On February 25 2017 00:12 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2017 23:35 LegalLord wrote:
It's interesting to see the parallels between the DNC leaks and the current government leaks. The first almost certainly spawned the second, and the two sides are reversed in the "contents of the leak vs. leaking is bad" game. It should perhaps be a warning as to what relying on leaks will lead to.


Never bought the whole Russian leaked the Hillary Email thing to undermine America thing.

If Russian are able to get into DNC server, they can release GOP stuff too.

If anything, it would have been more damaging. That would create way more chaos within the American society, would render Americans even more divided.


Not necessarily... according to what I've heard, the only reason the DNC leaked is because someone labeled an "illegitimate" phishing email as "legitimate"...apparently a typo.

ie not a master hacking skill, but just bad luck on the part of the victim... if the GOPs IT people were slightly better spellers then they would be fine.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-24 16:03:52
February 24 2017 16:02 GMT
#139179
On February 25 2017 01:01 Krikkitone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2017 00:12 RealityIsKing wrote:
On February 24 2017 23:35 LegalLord wrote:
It's interesting to see the parallels between the DNC leaks and the current government leaks. The first almost certainly spawned the second, and the two sides are reversed in the "contents of the leak vs. leaking is bad" game. It should perhaps be a warning as to what relying on leaks will lead to.


Never bought the whole Russian leaked the Hillary Email thing to undermine America thing.

If Russian are able to get into DNC server, they can release GOP stuff too.

If anything, it would have been more damaging. That would create way more chaos within the American society, would render Americans even more divided.


Not necessarily... according to what I've heard, the only reason the DNC leaked is because someone labeled an "illegitimate" phishing email as "legitimate"...apparently a typo.

ie not a master hacking skill, but just bad luck on the part of the victim... if the GOPs IT people were slightly better spellers then they would be fine.

That was Podesta. The DNC was hacked multiple times and was thoroughly compromised.

Besides, that story was utter bullshit by an IT guy who made a mistake that turned into a political firestorm. He would have said "an legitimate" if it was a typo. He just fucked up.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 24 2017 16:03 GMT
#139180
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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