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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 19 2017 00:32 GMT
#138361
And then he got slapped around like the bitch he is in the panel section. The kid is a hack that can't that folds under the slightest pressure.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 19 2017 00:37 GMT
#138362
Personally, the overtime segment was more interesting (it's the panel thing Plansix referenced). Pretty much no one really came off very well in it though.

Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12164 Posts
February 19 2017 00:40 GMT
#138363
Whenever I look at the heroes of the left and the heroes of the right, I know I'm where I'm supposed to be.
No will to live, no wish to die
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 19 2017 00:45 GMT
#138364
There isn't a lot of response to Milo beyond fuck you, you nancy bitch. You don't debate someone that shameless and expect it to be in good faith.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
February 19 2017 01:08 GMT
#138365
On February 19 2017 02:55 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 17:31 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:25 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:18 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 15:30 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 14:23 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 14:08 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 02:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Okay so we have one side who thinks it's not very important which one goes through, something like 55-45, and one side who thinks it's very important which one goes through. So since we're equal in this partnership, you're going to account for how important it's for the other side and choose the person who they think is important, right?

Right?

Insofar as I know, nobody in this thread is choosing jack shit, but if they were, I'd assume one person, one vote. If you're so passionate about Ellison, then make the case why he's better, because "it's important that we win" doesn't convince anybody.


Dude I'm not even american and you aren't either, why are you acting as if I believe it's about us choosing anything? Of course we aren't choosing anything. I'm just pointing out that in an equal relationship where both partners are honest, if one is mostly okay with A and B and the other reaaaaally wants A, then you probably should end up with A. That's a really basic thing. So if the DNC ends up going with B when one part of its base wants either A or B and the other part of its base wants A, that says something about the situation.



As per the press discussion, it's kind of ludicrous in the first place because the american press has actually been overall way too fair to republicans for way too long. It took a Trump for people to come out and actually denounce obvious lies, when the republicans have been demonstrably dishonest on a multitude of subjects for a multitude of years. The far right parties of most of Europe dream of a press that lets them get away with as much as yours does.

Shouldn't the proportions matter? If 99% of the party wants A, but is okay with B too, but 1% really really wants B, which choice is"right"?

In most European systems clearly the B people would have left the party ages ago and started their own political party. In the US the first past the post system prevents that. So should 1% (note: proportions are fictional) be able to hold the party hostage by virtue of their uncompromising stance?


Yes that seems to be true, if the proportions were 99% and 1%, it would make sense for the DNC to go for what the 99% wants. However, since the proportions are admittedly fictional, that's not really an interesting thought experiment.


So you have any info on the real proportions? Because I don't know what proportion of Bernie voters are Bernie or busters, which seem to be the only people who care much about Ellison vs Perez.


That is simply not true. The large majority of Bernie supporters care about Ellison vs Perez.

[citation needed]


Again you need to spend more time on progressive internet. There is no debate about Ellison vs Perez going on, the only debate going on is if Ellison is enough to trust the Democratic party again or not, and the people who are on the other side of that debate tend to be the Bernie or bust people that you mention. It's also logically consistent: when Schumer decides to back Ellison, it's a gesture to show Bernie's side of the party that they are heard. In general people tend to like being heard, politically, that's a good thing. I'm interested in why you would expect most Bernie people to be fine with Perez, do you have some citation of your own?

I don't see how you can claim that "the large majority of Bernie supporters care about Ellison vs Perez", let alone that they overwhelmingly support Ellison, without supporting that statement with poll numbers. Sanders received about 13 million votes in the primary, and the idea that you can confidently tell with no hard data how "the large majority" of them feel on this issue seems preposterous to me -- what you describe as the "progressive internet" is certainly not a representative sample of the people who voted for him in the primary. I'd also like to add that progressives are not only found among the supporters of Sanders or Ellison.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 19 2017 01:12 GMT
#138366
President Donald Trump’s attacks on the press echo the language of dictators, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” warning the nation to heed lessons of history.

Attacks on the press, McCain said, are “how dictators get started.”

“I hate the press. I hate you especially," McCain told NBC's Chuck Todd, according to excerpts of the interview set to air Sunday. "But the fact is we need you. We need a free press. We must have it. It's vital. If you want to preserve – I'm very serious now – if you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press. And without it, I am afraid that we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time. That's how dictators get started.”

McCain’s comments came in response to a question about Trump’s recent declaration, made via Twitter, that the press is the “enemy of the American People.”

“They get started by suppressing free press,” McCain said of dictators. “In other words, a consolidation of power when you look at history, the first thing that dictators do is shut down the press. And I'm not saying that President Trump is trying to be a dictator. I'm just saying we need to learn the lessons of history.”

There is no love lost between Trump and McCain, the 2008 GOP nominee for president. Trump said during the campaign that McCain was not a war hero because he was captured in Vietnam, and has continued to lash out at McCain on Twitter since the election. McCain withdrew his support of Trump in October after a tape was released in which Trump bragged about groping women.

McCain is one of the most vocal Republicans in Congress calling for an investigation of Russian attempts to influence the presidential election.

Trump recently said on Twitter that McCain and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), a fellow Russia hawk, were “looking to start World War III” after the pair criticized his immigration ban, which has since been barred by federal courts.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12164 Posts
February 19 2017 01:18 GMT
#138367
On February 19 2017 10:08 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2017 02:55 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 17:31 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:25 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:18 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 16:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 15:30 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 14:23 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 14:08 Acrofales wrote:
On February 18 2017 02:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Okay so we have one side who thinks it's not very important which one goes through, something like 55-45, and one side who thinks it's very important which one goes through. So since we're equal in this partnership, you're going to account for how important it's for the other side and choose the person who they think is important, right?

Right?

Insofar as I know, nobody in this thread is choosing jack shit, but if they were, I'd assume one person, one vote. If you're so passionate about Ellison, then make the case why he's better, because "it's important that we win" doesn't convince anybody.


Dude I'm not even american and you aren't either, why are you acting as if I believe it's about us choosing anything? Of course we aren't choosing anything. I'm just pointing out that in an equal relationship where both partners are honest, if one is mostly okay with A and B and the other reaaaaally wants A, then you probably should end up with A. That's a really basic thing. So if the DNC ends up going with B when one part of its base wants either A or B and the other part of its base wants A, that says something about the situation.



As per the press discussion, it's kind of ludicrous in the first place because the american press has actually been overall way too fair to republicans for way too long. It took a Trump for people to come out and actually denounce obvious lies, when the republicans have been demonstrably dishonest on a multitude of subjects for a multitude of years. The far right parties of most of Europe dream of a press that lets them get away with as much as yours does.

Shouldn't the proportions matter? If 99% of the party wants A, but is okay with B too, but 1% really really wants B, which choice is"right"?

In most European systems clearly the B people would have left the party ages ago and started their own political party. In the US the first past the post system prevents that. So should 1% (note: proportions are fictional) be able to hold the party hostage by virtue of their uncompromising stance?


Yes that seems to be true, if the proportions were 99% and 1%, it would make sense for the DNC to go for what the 99% wants. However, since the proportions are admittedly fictional, that's not really an interesting thought experiment.


So you have any info on the real proportions? Because I don't know what proportion of Bernie voters are Bernie or busters, which seem to be the only people who care much about Ellison vs Perez.


That is simply not true. The large majority of Bernie supporters care about Ellison vs Perez.

[citation needed]


Again you need to spend more time on progressive internet. There is no debate about Ellison vs Perez going on, the only debate going on is if Ellison is enough to trust the Democratic party again or not, and the people who are on the other side of that debate tend to be the Bernie or bust people that you mention. It's also logically consistent: when Schumer decides to back Ellison, it's a gesture to show Bernie's side of the party that they are heard. In general people tend to like being heard, politically, that's a good thing. I'm interested in why you would expect most Bernie people to be fine with Perez, do you have some citation of your own?

I don't see how you can claim that "the large majority of Bernie supporters care about Ellison vs Perez", let alone that they overwhelmingly support Ellison, without supporting that statement with poll numbers. Sanders received about 13 million votes in the primary, and the idea that you can confidently tell with no hard data how "the large majority" of them feel on this issue seems preposterous to me -- what you describe as the "progressive internet" is certainly not a representative sample of the people who voted for him in the primary. I'd also like to add that progressives are not only found among the supporters of Sanders or Ellison.


I don't stand behind my statement. I'm sure there are more people who haven't paid any attention to the DNC race amongst Bernie people than there are people who have, just the same as is the case for Clinton supporters, so it was wrong to say the majority. Instead I'm going to say "about 80% of those who have paid attention to the race", and this 20% number is so big only because it also includes the people who are so done with the democratic party that they won't come back under Ellison either.
No will to live, no wish to die
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 19 2017 01:19 GMT
#138368
That interview with McCain is good. Calling the press the enemy has this side effect of people asking other politicians if they agree.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 19 2017 01:30 GMT
#138369
While a large % of people may not actively have an opinion on the DNC chairman, those that do happen to be extremely fucking loud. The shitfit that will get thrown if Perez gets the nod will be larger than most democrats expect, I'm pretty sure.

Remember that most of these people are convinced that the DNC actively wants to force them out of the party and that it has already engaged in mass conspiracies to delegitimize their views.

For a somewhat poor analogy, it'd be like if the RNC purposefully announced "no one that has ever posted in r/the_donald can have a say in the chair position." Imagine the hellhole that most social media sites would become. It's a somewhat similar group of people on the left who supported Bernie, skills-wise - those that are actually skilled at technology and well-versed in making memes.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12164 Posts
February 19 2017 01:51 GMT
#138370
On February 19 2017 10:30 Nevuk wrote:
While a large % of people may not actively have an opinion on the DNC chairman, those that do happen to be extremely fucking loud. The shitfit that will get thrown if Perez gets the nod will be larger than most democrats expect, I'm pretty sure.

Remember that most of these people are convinced that the DNC actively wants to force them out of the party and that it has already engaged in mass conspiracies to delegitimize their views.

For a somewhat poor analogy, it'd be like if the RNC purposefully announced "no one that has ever posted in r/the_donald can have a say in the chair position." Imagine the hellhole that most social media sites would become. It's a somewhat similar group of people on the left who supported Bernie, skills-wise - those that are actually skilled at technology and well-versed in making memes.


It won't help that I can make a case to a berniecrat who hasn't followed anything that Perez was a choice against him in under twenty seconds and using only the truth.

- Schumer tried to appeal to you by going for Sanders' choice, it wasn't very subtle.
- Then after Ellison seemed to be the frontrunner with no contestation, suddenly Perez appeared and immediately got support from Clinton and Obama even though he mostly said the same things Ellison had said.
- That tells me "No we don't even need to appeal to them, fuck them".

Done.
No will to live, no wish to die
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 19 2017 01:57 GMT
#138371
WASHINGTON (AP) — Republicans control Congress so President Donald Trump's pledge to boost the Pentagon budget by tens of billions of dollars should be a sure bet.

It's not.

Trump faces skeptical Democrats whose support he'll need and resistance from fiscal conservatives opposed to repealing a 2011 law that set firm limits on military and domestic spending. Unless the president figures out a way to mollify the disparate camps, he'll have a tough time delivering on a signature campaign promise to rescue the armed forces from a festering financial crisis.

Senior U.S. commanders have flatly warned that the spending caps set by the Budget Control Act are squeezing the armed forces so hard that the number of ready-to-fight units is dwindling. That means beating powers such as Russia or China is tougher than it used to be as aging equipment stacks up, waiting to be repaired, and troops don't get enough training.

Gen. Daniel Allyn, the Army's vice chief of staff, startled many lawmakers when he testified recently that just three of the service's 58 active-duty and reserve brigade combat teams are ready to fight at a moment's notice.

Allyn and other four-star officers pleaded during separate hearings in the House and Senate for the spending limits to be repealed, clearing the way for the bigger budgets they say are needed to stop the military's readiness for combat from decaying further.

"We need to act now before it's too late," said Gen. Stephen Wilson, the Air Force's vice chief of staff.

The average age of Air Force aircraft is 27 years, according to Wilson, who added that more than half of the service's inventory would qualify for antique vehicle license plates in Virginia. On top of that, the Air Force is short 1,500 pilots and 3,400 aircraft maintainers, he said.

The Navy and Marine Corps are experiencing the same turbulence.

Trump, speaking at a White House news conference on Wednesday, said he's ordered a plan for a "massive rebuilding" of the armed forces. He didn't disclose how much he expected his blueprint to cost.

National security hawks in Congress have suggested a defense budget of $700 billion in 2018 — more than at any point during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The total, which includes $60 billion for overseas combat operations, is $91 billion over the mandatory spending cap.

That's just a down payment to begin digging out of a readiness problem the Pentagon's top brass says will take years to fix. GOP Sen. John McCain of Arizona, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, has envisioned annual increases of between 3 percent and 4 percent, culminating with an $800 billion budget for the armed forces in 2022.

Securing these sizable and sustained increases will require repealing the Budget Control Act. Trump, however, has proposed to eliminate only the budget limit on defense. That's a nonstarter for Democrats, who have long demanded parity between the two board categories of federal spending.

They've argued that Trump's approach will continue to restrict the budgets of the departments of State, Treasury and Justice, all of which play essential national security roles.

"We've always insisted, on our side of the aisle, that as long as the caps are in place, there should be equal relief," said Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia, the top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services readiness subcommittee.

Trump will need at least a handful of Democrats on his side: It'll take 60 votes in the Senate to undo the budget law and Republicans hold 52 seats.

Republicans hold a larger majority in the House, but the party's deficit hawks are a significant obstacle. They see the caps as blunt yet effective tools to curb federal spending and prevent the national debt from spiraling further out of control.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
February 19 2017 02:07 GMT
#138372
regarding the McCain interview I actually watched it and he was careful to not directly accuse Trump of being authoritarian and said that it wasn't authoritarian until they start actually shutting down newspapers. He did talk about the importance of the free press. I'd like to see him actually do something instead of just giving tough guy speeches though.

If you haven't seen the JFK interview going around with him after the bay of pigs talking about the adversarial press its really good.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-19 02:11:54
February 19 2017 02:08 GMT
#138373
stupid wastefully large military spending. sad how many people are fooled into thinking that kind of spending is necessary for safety.
I'd really like to rein all that in.
and if there's readiness issues, just have fewer units that are ready to go, instead of a bunch of stuff that's unready. though realistically I think it makes more sense for the US to use an "arsenal of democracy" plan and have lots of gear that might take some time to ready, but can be made available for us and ofr allies on an as needed basis.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 19 2017 02:14 GMT
#138374
Military spending in the US is in many ways a jobs program for red states.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13910 Posts
February 19 2017 02:18 GMT
#138375
On February 19 2017 11:14 Nevuk wrote:
Military spending in the US is in many ways a jobs program for red states.

Hey man we sell a lot of stuff to other countries as well man.

Military R&D is an easy sell and any research money is good research money.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23209 Posts
February 19 2017 02:26 GMT
#138376
Milo is just a big PC wuss (when it comes to Catholicism), kinda funny people on the right think he's some "truth teller" or intellectual.

Not surprised him and Mahar got along so well though, Milo is basically the next generation of Mahar.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13910 Posts
February 19 2017 03:03 GMT
#138377
On February 19 2017 11:26 GreenHorizons wrote:
Milo is just a big PC wuss (when it comes to Catholicism), kinda funny people on the right think he's some "truth teller" or intellectual.

Not surprised him and Mahar got along so well though, Milo is basically the next generation of Mahar.

They're basicaly running the same shtick. Not surprised they can get along so well either.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-19 03:38:06
February 19 2017 03:37 GMT
#138378
No one is shocked. I should have seen the Mahar/Milo cross over comming years ago. They are both insufferable.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nemireck
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1875 Posts
February 19 2017 03:46 GMT
#138379
Milo definitely looked out of his element in the Overtime segment when placed against a panel of intelligent people responding to his commentary. He's so used to the knee-jerk reactions from journalists and activists (and 20 year-old college kids) that when faced with real counter-points, he gets knocked around a little.

This is why he must be confronted and debated, rather than shut down by riots and protest. The more he has to face REAL opposition, the less effective his message becomes. Every time he gets shut out by riots/protest, it adds credibility to his ridiculous claims.

Ironically enough, if people just allowed him to speak and responded with intelligent criticism, their goal of making him irrelevant again would be achieved much quicker than the current strategies being employed by those that don't like him.

He's just a much more inflammatory version of the Stephen Colbert character. Real, true debate makes it easier to see (even if he doesn't operate in good faith, the debate itself exposes him for what he is... a character).
Teamwork is awesome... As long as your team is doing all the work!
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12164 Posts
February 19 2017 03:50 GMT
#138380
On February 19 2017 12:46 Nemireck wrote:
Milo definitely looked out of his element in the Overtime segment when placed against a panel of intelligent people responding to his commentary. He's so used to the knee-jerk reactions from journalists and activists (and 20 year-old college kids) that when faced with real counter-points, he gets knocked around a little.

This is why he must be confronted and debated, rather than shut down by riots and protest. The more he has to face REAL opposition, the less effective his message becomes. Every time he gets shut out by riots/protest, it adds credibility to his ridiculous claims.

Ironically enough, if people just allowed him to speak and responded with intelligent criticism, their goal of making him irrelevant again would be achieved much quicker than the current strategies being employed by those that don't like him.

He's just a much more inflammatory version of the Stephen Colbert character. Real, true debate makes it easier to see (even if he doesn't operate in good faith, the debate itself exposes him for what he is... a character).


I mean, you're not wrong, but most of the people who are going to come to that conclusion didn't need to watch him debate on TV to come to that conclusion. I'm more concerned about how many of the people are going to go "Oh shit transgender people commit more sex crimes? And the news never told us that, fucking fake news" and then add that belief to their little list.
No will to live, no wish to die
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