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United States42609 Posts
On February 19 2017 05:56 pmh wrote:
Most people in the Netherlands seem to think everything will turn out fine,just like it always has.
You have a short memory. The Netherlands got trampled by every single European conflict before the declaration of Pax Americana. The end of Pax Americana is going to be very worrying unless we accept a Teutonic dominated Europe and allow them to assume the role of regional Hegemon.
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On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do.
I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either).
There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible.
(and yes those goes for Democrats aswell)
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On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do.
I mean even Trump himself seems to be having a hard time "putting on the face of a unified front" since he seems to change his mind alot. I would think most Europeans involved in politics in any way are quite aware that things are not as usual in the US.
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On February 19 2017 06:04 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2017 11:41 xDaunt wrote:On February 18 2017 11:34 biology]major wrote:
xdaunt, I'm generally with you on the media bashing and that declaring them an "enemy" is not facism, but it's a cheap shot. Also, what is your opinion on Trump's bromance with Putin in light of recent leaks? Do you find it problematic?
I have confidence that Mattis will be independent in running DoD and will resign if it comes to worst case scenario, and so far he is holding ground and flat out saying Russia and USA are not ready to work together on the ground. How is criticizing the press a "cheap shot?" This day of reckoning for the press is long overdue. Only a few members of the press understand what's happened. CBS's John Dickerson seems to be one of them:"Yes, it's true, and it's not because of anything obviously Donald Trump did. The press did all that good work ruining its reputation on its own, and we can have a long conversation about what created that," Dickerson said.
"Part of it, though, is what you mentioned about the local weather report, which is to say a lot of hysterical coverage about every little last thing that doesn't warrant it," he added. As for the bromance with Putin, I'm not going to be concerned until I see some concrete proof of misconduct. Coincidentally, I had drinks today with a guy who spoke with someone from Capitol Hill who is unequivocally in the know on this stuff, and it seems like there may be fire to go along with the smoke. But I'll wait and see what's there before jumping to any conclusions. I also saw the Dickerson piece. The media establishment has these glimpses of light that peek through. I thought it would be a quick and obvious course correction to widely admit fault, pause the narrative news and resume news, and continue on. The election was a distinctly big wake up call that everybody apparently had their ear plugs too deeply buried to hear. Trump lies and exaggerations, born out of a defensive ego I wager, are a fertile ground for reporting. All it takes is a little internal cleaning (try it!) to show they know the difference between reporting the news and telling everyone what they should think about the news. Reporters vs columnists. But the news media, as exemplified in that press conference and most Russia stories, may be the ones with the bigger ego ala 'how dare you attack this wonderful institution and call us enemies.'
Conflating the Russia leaks with your hatred of the media is a dangerous mistake.
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On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do.
I don't think it can qualify as "tattling" when it's as glaringly obvious as this. and i'm more willing to tolerate a divided front when dealing with allies than with neutrals or enemies.
And there's certainly something to be said for the argument that the best foreign policy plan is to tell foreign leaders an idiot got elected and we're trying to minimize the damage, and please bear with us for awhile while we fix our internal issues.
that said you do have a solid point.
The standards on this front have been slipping for quite awhile as I hear it (decades); at least that's what they say; that politics used to stop at the water's edge.
how to apply the standards to an unworthy president, certainly an exceptional circumstance that may call for unusual answers.
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On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do.
Trump: *undermines everyone's confidence in America at every turn*
McCain: I know there's a lot to be concerned about right now, but don't count Anerica out, there's still a lot of us fighting for her to be great and be the same stabilizing force she's always been.
LegalLord: McCain should be ashamed of himself.
???
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LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance.
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On February 19 2017 06:24 Plansix wrote:
LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance.
I mean, mistake if he's courting LL's support I guess. I have trouble figuring out what you would even do to get his support. He seems ready enough to acknowledge Trump's a disaster, but cheers whenever some new boneheaded nationalist policy comes out of the white house.
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On February 19 2017 06:28 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:24 Plansix wrote:
LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance. I mean, mistake if he's courting LL's support I guess. I have trouble figuring out what you would even do to get his support. He seems ready enough to acknowledge Trump's a disaster, but cheers whenever some new boneheaded nationalist policy comes out of the white house.
Aaron Burr supports no one. He keeps his plans close to his chest and sees which way the wind will blow.
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Norway28654 Posts
On February 19 2017 06:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do. I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either). There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible. (and yes those goes from Democrats aswell)
Agree entirely with this. McCain and others distancing themselves from Trump is an absolute necessity for Europeans to maintain faith in future american republican leadership.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On February 19 2017 06:28 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:24 Plansix wrote:
LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance. I mean, mistake if he's courting LL's support I guess. I have trouble figuring out what you would even do to get his support. He seems ready enough to acknowledge Trump's a disaster, but cheers whenever some new boneheaded nationalist policy comes out of the white house.
My money is on him seeing himself as a Heath Ledger Joker-like figure who laughs as the hypocritical world around him burns. He has been sympathetic to Might makes Right arguments in the past, so I guess that he sees such a world in his selfish interest.
I would sure be glad to be proven wrong however.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 19 2017 06:28 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:24 Plansix wrote:
LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance. I mean, mistake if he's courting LL's support I guess. I have trouble figuring out what you would even do to get his support. He seems ready enough to acknowledge Trump's a disaster, but cheers whenever some new boneheaded nationalist policy comes out of the white house.
I've come to terms with that nothing good will come of Trump's presidency. So now all that's left is to hope for maximum chaos.
Though if you want any specific policy statements, the best way to get them is to ask.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 19 2017 06:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do. I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either). There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible. (and yes those goes from Democrats aswell) Agree entirely with this. McCain and others distancing themselves from Trump is an absolute necessity for Europeans to maintain faith in future american republican leadership.
What a world we live in where people treat McCain as if he were a force for good.
I mean, the Poles/Balts certainly love him because he parrots their delusions about Russia, but beyond that I would hope people would have a better understanding of the man who chose Sarah Palin as VP.
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McCain has never been a bad guy. A little politically spineless, but never out right filled with malice. And he didn't chose Sarah Palin. The GOP told him she was the ticket to victory. Reporter were that his campaign was deeply dysfunctional all the way through.
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On February 19 2017 06:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:28 ChristianS wrote:On February 19 2017 06:24 Plansix wrote:
LegalLord doesn't like it when anyone talks about possible conflicts with Russia or worries about conflicts with Russia. Or dictators as a whole. McCain made the mistake of sticking to his long standing political view that Russia is going to try to destabilize Europe if given the chance. I mean, mistake if he's courting LL's support I guess. I have trouble figuring out what you would even do to get his support. He seems ready enough to acknowledge Trump's a disaster, but cheers whenever some new boneheaded nationalist policy comes out of the white house. I've come to terms with that nothing good will come of Trump's presidency. So now all that's left is to hope for maximum chaos. Though if you want any specific policy statements, the best way to get them is to ask.
Sure, okay. Let's start here: what economic/trade policy do you actually favor? You've spent plenty of time talking about how the free marketeers/free trade advocates have too little answer for the WWC whose jobs are impacted. What do you think can actually be done for them? It seems unlikely to me that they would fare well in a trade war, and cutting back on immigration might leave jobs for them, but the rise in food prices will also make it a lot harder to make ends meet. We've discussed the problem plenty, what do you see as the solution?
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On February 19 2017 06:52 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:On February 19 2017 06:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do. I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either). There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible. (and yes those goes from Democrats aswell) Agree entirely with this. McCain and others distancing themselves from Trump is an absolute necessity for Europeans to maintain faith in future american republican leadership. What a world we live in where people treat McCain as if he were a force for good. I mean, the Poles/Balts certainly love him because he parrots their delusions about Russia, but beyond that I would hope people would have a better understanding of the man who chose Sarah Palin as VP.
My response was to the statement as made by McCain. Not to his value as a person/politicians.
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On February 19 2017 06:04 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2017 11:41 xDaunt wrote:On February 18 2017 11:34 biology]major wrote:
xdaunt, I'm generally with you on the media bashing and that declaring them an "enemy" is not facism, but it's a cheap shot. Also, what is your opinion on Trump's bromance with Putin in light of recent leaks? Do you find it problematic?
I have confidence that Mattis will be independent in running DoD and will resign if it comes to worst case scenario, and so far he is holding ground and flat out saying Russia and USA are not ready to work together on the ground. How is criticizing the press a "cheap shot?" This day of reckoning for the press is long overdue. Only a few members of the press understand what's happened. CBS's John Dickerson seems to be one of them:"Yes, it's true, and it's not because of anything obviously Donald Trump did. The press did all that good work ruining its reputation on its own, and we can have a long conversation about what created that," Dickerson said.
"Part of it, though, is what you mentioned about the local weather report, which is to say a lot of hysterical coverage about every little last thing that doesn't warrant it," he added. As for the bromance with Putin, I'm not going to be concerned until I see some concrete proof of misconduct. Coincidentally, I had drinks today with a guy who spoke with someone from Capitol Hill who is unequivocally in the know on this stuff, and it seems like there may be fire to go along with the smoke. But I'll wait and see what's there before jumping to any conclusions. I also saw the Dickerson piece. The media establishment has these glimpses of light that peek through. I thought it would be a quick and obvious course correction to widely admit fault, pause the narrative news and resume news, and continue on. The election was a distinctly big wake up call that everybody apparently had their ear plugs too deeply buried to hear. Trump lies and exaggerations, born out of a defensive ego I wager, are a fertile ground for reporting. All it takes is a little internal cleaning (try it!) to show they know the difference between reporting the news and telling everyone what they should think about the news. Reporters vs columnists.
Is there a line though? What happens when the Republicans say something that is demonstrably wrong or demonstrably dishonest (which is, a hell of a lot of the time)? Shouldn't the public be allowed to know that they aren't given good faith arguments when they decide what to think about an issue?
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On February 19 2017 06:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:56 pmh wrote:
Most people in the Netherlands seem to think everything will turn out fine,just like it always has. You have a short memory. The Netherlands got trampled by every single European conflict before the declaration of Pax Americana. The end of Pax Americana is going to be very worrying unless we accept a Teutonic dominated Europe and allow them to assume the role of regional Hegemon.
Uhh, the European Union -should- be the "regional hegemon" of Europe. The way you are wording this, it seems like you are genuinely suggesting that America should be the hegemon of the entire world, which is nothing short of oppressive in terms of economics and sovereignty of countries outside of America.
On February 19 2017 06:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do. I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either). There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible.(and yes those goes for Democrats aswell)
I agree, lets put this American nonsense behind us and distance ourselves from the warmongers once and for all. McCain is no better in this regard. He's always beating the war drums and proclaiming American supremacy.
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Norway28654 Posts
On February 19 2017 06:52 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 06:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:On February 19 2017 06:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do. I disagree. No one is going to not see the trainwreck of Trump. Standing by him just makes the EU wonder if all Republicans are as stupid. (esp since the last R, Bush, was not great either). There is nothing wrong with breaking rank to distance yourself from someone you find reprehensible. (and yes those goes from Democrats aswell) Agree entirely with this. McCain and others distancing themselves from Trump is an absolute necessity for Europeans to maintain faith in future american republican leadership. What a world we live in where people treat McCain as if he were a force for good. I mean, the Poles/Balts certainly love him because he parrots their delusions about Russia, but beyond that I would hope people would have a better understanding of the man who chose Sarah Palin as VP.
I think McCain at least tries to be a force for good. I obviously don't agree with him politically, but at least I can respect the man, and I can understand that people whose political affiliation differs from my own likes him. I think politics has to accept the reality that populations everywhere have differing opinions on how society should be structured, and as such, in democracies, we're bound to occasionally be governed by people we disagree with. And if I have to choose a republican president, I think, McCain isn't going to embark on a mission of emboldening hatefulness and lack of human decency, and that separates him positively from the pro-Trump wing. I can deal with hawkish republicans, because history has shown that the world can progress even despite them - even if they are disastrous for whatever region happens to be affected by the meddling desires.
From your posting history, it kinda seems like 'rhetoric employed towards russia' is close to your top priority when evaluating whether or not you like a politician. For me, this is pretty far down the line - even if I actually agree that Russia is better than her reputation in the US would indicate. Trump's possible russian ties and pro-russian stances are also very far down the line of reasons why I am opposed to Trump. The Cold War is over and US-Russian relations are no longer a major cause of worldly strife. That might not sound like a McCain endorsement - but in a way it is, because I don't think McCainy anti-russian statements would ever evolve into more than anti-russian statements, which is part of the status quo the world has seemed quite capable of handling. Possibly autocratic and certainly delusional leaders of superpowers, those have a history of being disasters.
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On February 19 2017 05:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2017 05:42 m4ini wrote:On February 19 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote:MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Republican Senator John McCain broke with the reassuring message that U.S. officials visiting Germany have sought to convey on their debut trip to Europe, saying on Friday that the administration of President Donald Trump was in "disarray".
McCain, a known Trump critic, told the Munich Security Conference that the resignation of the new president's security adviser Michael Flynn over his contacts with Russia reflected deep problems in Washington.
"I think that the Flynn issue obviously is something that shows that in many respects this administration is in disarray and they've got a lot of work to do," said McCain, even as he praised Trump's defense secretary.
"The president, I think, makes statements (and) on other occasions contradicts himself. So we've learned to watch what the president does as opposed to what he says," he said.
European governments have been unsettled by the signals sent by Trump on a range of foreign policy issues ranging from NATO and Russia to Iran, Israel and European integration. SourceGreat job, John Rambo McCain. Might as well have just gone there and said, "you can go ahead and start panicking now." Ah, yes. The naive europeans, what a shock that was to hear that the white house is in disarray. No one would've expected that, after it, well, was in so much disarray that it couldn't have been worse if you'd dub everything in the last weeks with the benny hill theme. Believe me, europeans are able to form their own opinions based on (admittedly, fake) news from overseas. All McCain did was to take the opportunity to take another jab at trump. If you assume that somehow him stating "the white house is in disarray" is different from "the white house showing that it's in disarray", well. Can't help you there. I don't care if it's blindingly obvious that Trump's administration has no idea what it is doing, so obvious that even a European can see it. Going out and saying it sends the wrong message. Beyond saying "our government is incompetent" it also says "we're not willing to put on the face of a unified front." It's externalizing an internal disagreement and basically tattling to Europeans, a shameful thing for an American senator to do.
You seem to have a rather higher opinion of your senators than they deserve. These are the same guys who thought it was a good idea to try to undermine Obama's Iran deal.
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