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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10761 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 19:16:23
January 30 2017 19:12 GMT
#134041
Because you marxists? Yeah, why not bring up hitler too?

Most people i know, including myself, are pro bussiness. Many just don't think the market is regulated enough.
Neoliberalism means as few regulations as possible improving the possible earnings a company could make by as much as possible.

I just don't see this as a sustainable model, because it is, by its very nature, built to exploit employees as much as possible.
It leads straight to oligarchy.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12261 Posts
January 30 2017 19:14 GMT
#134042
On January 31 2017 04:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
left/right dichotomy is relative to the opposition, they're not absolute values. neoliberalism is much more of an absolute description of favored policies. seeing as how the european and american political climates differ, it makes perfect sense for a neoliberal politician to be center-left in the US and staunchly on the right side of the spectrum in Europe.

In terms of policies favored, democrats are probably the closest to the norwegian conservative party, which in Norway is aptly named 'Right'. In terms of rhetoric employed, they sound more like our Labour party, which is on the left side of the spectrum. This again relates to how rhetoric largely relates to the opposition.


American definitions of left and right are basically an alternative fact that made it to mainstream.
No will to live, no wish to die
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
January 30 2017 19:16 GMT
#134043
oneofthem continually reifies problematic characterizations of competing leftist attitudes towards the economy and I can't quite figure out why. There is more than enough common ground among self-proclaimed socialists and those of a more Clintonian bent.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16765 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 19:18:05
January 30 2017 19:16 GMT
#134044
the US is one of the few 1st world countries with no labour party. i view the US as a 2-party dicatorship. in every other 1st world country new political parties have risen and fallen in prominence over the past 60 years. Not so in the USA.. every race is Democrat/Republican.

Are there any non-Democrat, non-Republican governors?

IMO, all this is a cryin' shame because the US Constitution was one of the most important political achievements in the history of the world and a beacon of hope for the free world.

o well.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 19:25:28
January 30 2017 19:23 GMT
#134045
On January 31 2017 04:12 Velr wrote:
Because you marxists? Yeah, why not bring up hitler too?

Most people i know, including myself, are pro bussiness. Many just don't think the market is regulated enough.
Neoliberalism means as few regulations as possible improving the possible earnings a company could make by as much as possible.

I just don't see this as a sustainable model, because it is, by its very nature, built to exploit employees as much as possible.
It leads straight to oligarchy.


if that's how neoliberal is defined, its arguably being used as a slur when used in reference to the center left in the US. i consider myself as part of that group and am very pro-regulation w/r/t to preventing greedy people/ entities from cutting corners and screwing over others for profit.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 19:42:13
January 30 2017 19:25 GMT
#134046
On January 31 2017 04:12 Velr wrote:
Because you marxists? Yeah, why not bring up hitler too?

Most people i know, including myself, are pro bussiness. Many just don't think the market is regulated enough.
Neoliberalism means as few regulations as possible improving the possible earnings a company could make by as much as possible.


I just don't see this as a sustainable model, because it is, by its very nature, built to exploit employees as much as possible.
It leads straight to oligarchy.

if this is your belief then uh, the same center-left you accuse of being neoliberal are not in fact neoliberal. there is just a simple error of factual belief here.

On January 31 2017 04:16 farvacola wrote:
oneofthem continually reifies problematic characterizations of competing leftist attitudes towards the economy and I can't quite figure out why. There is more than enough common ground among self-proclaimed socialists and those of a more Clintonian bent.

i am simply stating my observations. the fact of the matter is, there is a significant segment of the left that has a very negative(misinformed and wrong) view of the center-left. for example, velr here thinks the center-left is a bunch of reaganites.

once again, the central idea is understanding development, what makes a society and economy successful. that involves a lot of ideas like enterprise and dissolution of rent generating barriers, promoting competition etc. some leftists reject the positive potential of markets and instead adopt a moralistic picture where being pro-market means pinochet


btw, i am also a socialist, but reality is that there needs to be a fairly high basis of material wealth for that to happen. establishing the proper market based order so as to unlock the productive potential of the citizenry is the most effective welfare improving move at this particular moment for most of the world.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
January 30 2017 19:32 GMT
#134047
On January 31 2017 04:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Are there any non-Democrat, non-Republican governors?

Bill Walker, Alaska, is the only one.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15712 Posts
January 30 2017 19:39 GMT
#134048
On January 31 2017 04:16 farvacola wrote:
oneofthem continually reifies problematic characterizations of competing leftist attitudes towards the economy and I can't quite figure out why. There is more than enough common ground among self-proclaimed socialists and those of a more Clintonian bent.

My personal view is that we should really just go down the Bernie path. Clinton folks will vote for Bernie folks but Bernie folks won't vote for Clinton folks.

None of these discussions as to which is better or worse matter when you lose elections anyway.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 19:50:30
January 30 2017 19:49 GMT
#134049
On January 31 2017 04:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
the US is one of the few 1st world countries with no labour party. i view the US as a 2-party dicatorship. in every other 1st world country new political parties have risen and fallen in prominence over the past 60 years. Not so in the USA.. every race is Democrat/Republican.

Are there any non-Democrat, non-Republican governors?

IMO, all this is a cryin' shame because the US Constitution was one of the most important political achievements in the history of the world and a beacon of hope for the free world.

o well.


There's a clear-ish path for how that happened I think? the US is still recovering from McCarthyism in many ways, and having a 2 party system really has helped keep the left from reforming by dissuading people from trying to move the political spectrum.
Logo
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 20:06:54
January 30 2017 19:52 GMT
#134050
On January 31 2017 04:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2017 04:16 farvacola wrote:
oneofthem continually reifies problematic characterizations of competing leftist attitudes towards the economy and I can't quite figure out why. There is more than enough common ground among self-proclaimed socialists and those of a more Clintonian bent.

My personal view is that we should really just go down the Bernie path. Clinton folks will vote for Bernie folks but Bernie folks won't vote for Clinton folks.

None of these discussions as to which is better or worse matter when you lose elections anyway.


the key is really developing a powerful labor based political movement. but i also think the end result that is desired is a settled peace between capitalists and labor, rather than the kind of disruption offered by bernie or trump.

the organizing group of the american right, billionaire political activists, adopt this strategy of total destruction against labor/the left because there is no legitimate threats to them. at the end of the day, labor and the left isn't organized and effective enough.

this is also why leftist extremists whose own political vision isn't sustainable or acceptable for a winning coalition are a danger to this sort of a project. especially when they attack their allies.

as far as 'clinton folks will vote for bernie', that is only true this cycle because trump is on the other side. if there isn't a socially repugnant guy on the other side, but instead you have a guy like romney, then a bernie style candidate would not be that strong.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
parkufarku
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
882 Posts
January 30 2017 19:55 GMT
#134051
On January 30 2017 06:22 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 05:57 parkufarku wrote:
the way NYT handled this election / primaries made me quit going to their site. They are so biased that it's not even funny. I expected them to be more neutral as the biggest news source around. Maybe not completely neutral but still expected them to have some sort of neutral decency. Nope. Completely worked for the Establishment when zoning out Bernie and propping up Hillary. Then when general election comes, ignores all data and makes up some bullshit tracker on their front page that predicts Hillary will win 90% or something at the same exact day when another article on their front site specifically says it is predicted that Hillary won't do that well against Trump.

It turns out the BS probability tracker is just a tool they had to try to influence the decisions of the un-decided voters by faking the reality and making it seem like voting for Trump will be useless

I dislike Huffington Post but NYT is terrible.

No evidence that the NYT predictions were rigged to inflate Hillary's chances, nor is there any evidence that favoring her in prediction algorithms would make her more likely to win. + Show Spoiler [offtopic re. Plansix] +
Also, you're a spiteful person.



If you honestly believe that, I don't know what to tell you. There's a reason why dirty election tactic involves announcing for one candidate way before results are even clear - to make the voters feel like winner is already decided, so that your vote for the loser isn't gonna do any good, and to make the people feel like they are gonna vote for a winner and earn a victory. It's human psychology 101.

And:
+ Show Spoiler +
I couldn't give less shits about your opinion about me, it's pretty irrelevant
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
January 30 2017 19:59 GMT
#134052
On January 31 2017 04:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
the US is one of the few 1st world countries with no labour party. i view the US as a 2-party dicatorship. in every other 1st world country new political parties have risen and fallen in prominence over the past 60 years. Not so in the USA.. every race is Democrat/Republican.

Are there any non-Democrat, non-Republican governors?

IMO, all this is a cryin' shame because the US Constitution was one of the most important political achievements in the history of the world and a beacon of hope for the free world.

o well.


It's a result of FPTP and the electoral college makes it even worse than in other FPTP countries where minor parties at least matter occasionally. Either you're the biggest party or the runner-up, everyone else doesn't even matter, because the votes for the losers disappear completely in the system if they don't get a majority in any state.

I wonder what it would take for the US to move away from FPTP - apart from a miracle.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28683 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 20:00:58
January 30 2017 20:00 GMT
#134053
I think historically, being down in the polls is likely (or even proven) to hurt turnout. I think this one particular election it seems to have had an opposite effect with Hillary - a lot of people reluctantly voted for her, and it's also my impression that quite some people ended up not voting for her 'because she was winning anyway', so they wouldn't have to.
Moderator
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 30 2017 20:11 GMT
#134054
On January 31 2017 03:42 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2017 03:38 LegalLord wrote:
The way forward does not, however, involve ignoring the inconvenient folk for whom further globalization and immigration is problematic. It's true that it's more likely than not that the populists won't help them - the populist who is skilled enough to create a new government is rare - but it is perhaps a necessity to ensure that their problems are actually considered in the future. The more times "the establishment" tries to force a decision through a "no choice" scenario of "bipartisan" establishment consensus, the more populists will be elected as a fuck-you to the system that treats people with genuine concerns as stupid idiots who just don't get it.

this is true in abstract but does not apply to our current situation, because 'the establishment' as in center-left technocrats involved in dem policy making take very seriously these problems.

you can say the proposed solutions do not go far enough, are constrained by existing ideological blocks such as with respect to role of monetary policy, direct interventions on capital allocation and so on, but i think if the softer solutions do not work for two years or so, real radical changes may be on the table even for a HRC administration.


i like this development from you. "real radical changes" may be on the table. as zizek says the true utopia is not this leftist communist alternative that you (falsely) find inextricably bound up with manichean worldviews, but the idea that we can go on as we are with only some slight changes to make liberal democracy better by degrees.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
January 30 2017 20:12 GMT
#134055
On January 31 2017 05:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think historically, being down in the polls is likely (or even proven) to hurt turnout. I think this one particular election it seems to have had an opposite effect with Hillary - a lot of people reluctantly voted for her, and it's also my impression that quite some people ended up not voting for her 'because she was winning anyway', so they wouldn't have to.

I don't think that's what happened to Hillary, if only because turnout was quite standard this time. The problem was simply that her support was concentrated in the wrong places (safe state megacities) while Trump's appeal was in the most contested areas, which happened to have a large rural or working class population.

Also, women and Hispanics just didn't vote hard enough against Trump - the numbers there looked quite similar to Romney. Identity politics didn't do the trick.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
January 30 2017 20:17 GMT
#134056
On January 31 2017 04:55 parkufarku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2017 06:22 ChristianS wrote:
On January 30 2017 05:57 parkufarku wrote:
the way NYT handled this election / primaries made me quit going to their site. They are so biased that it's not even funny. I expected them to be more neutral as the biggest news source around. Maybe not completely neutral but still expected them to have some sort of neutral decency. Nope. Completely worked for the Establishment when zoning out Bernie and propping up Hillary. Then when general election comes, ignores all data and makes up some bullshit tracker on their front page that predicts Hillary will win 90% or something at the same exact day when another article on their front site specifically says it is predicted that Hillary won't do that well against Trump.

It turns out the BS probability tracker is just a tool they had to try to influence the decisions of the un-decided voters by faking the reality and making it seem like voting for Trump will be useless

I dislike Huffington Post but NYT is terrible.

No evidence that the NYT predictions were rigged to inflate Hillary's chances, nor is there any evidence that favoring her in prediction algorithms would make her more likely to win. + Show Spoiler [offtopic re. Plansix] +
Also, you're a spiteful person.



If you honestly believe that, I don't know what to tell you. There's a reason why dirty election tactic involves announcing for one candidate way before results are even clear - to make the voters feel like winner is already decided, so that your vote for the loser isn't gonna do any good, and to make the people feel like they are gonna vote for a winner and earn a victory. It's human psychology 101.

And:
+ Show Spoiler +
I couldn't give less shits about your opinion about me, it's pretty irrelevant

The opposite effect, i.e. the winner appearing inevitable so there's no reason to go out to the polls, is just as plausible. Hell, it's part of why I didn't vote in 2012. Studying which is more prevalent would be very hard because obviously if someone is down in the polls it's probably because they're unpopular, so their turnout would be lower even if no polls were published.

What we've got here is a classic cult of savviness:

"What's REALLY going on is [insert insidious conspiracy]"
"Oh really? What's the evidence that a more innocent explanation isn't the true one?"
" lol ur so naive, maybe someday ul be savvy like me prolly not"

In place of evidence you try to appeal to people's desire to be "in the know" to convince them to believe you. In reality most of the prediction models got it wrong, to varying degrees, and there's no reason to think NYT did it on purpose. They probably just underestimated correlated error like everyone else.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18445 Posts
January 30 2017 20:18 GMT
#134057
There is no valid excuse to not go vote. I have no respect for people who dont go use their right.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 30 2017 20:22 GMT
#134058
On January 31 2017 05:11 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2017 03:42 oneofthem wrote:
On January 31 2017 03:38 LegalLord wrote:
The way forward does not, however, involve ignoring the inconvenient folk for whom further globalization and immigration is problematic. It's true that it's more likely than not that the populists won't help them - the populist who is skilled enough to create a new government is rare - but it is perhaps a necessity to ensure that their problems are actually considered in the future. The more times "the establishment" tries to force a decision through a "no choice" scenario of "bipartisan" establishment consensus, the more populists will be elected as a fuck-you to the system that treats people with genuine concerns as stupid idiots who just don't get it.

this is true in abstract but does not apply to our current situation, because 'the establishment' as in center-left technocrats involved in dem policy making take very seriously these problems.

you can say the proposed solutions do not go far enough, are constrained by existing ideological blocks such as with respect to role of monetary policy, direct interventions on capital allocation and so on, but i think if the softer solutions do not work for two years or so, real radical changes may be on the table even for a HRC administration.


i like this development from you. "real radical changes" may be on the table. as zizek says the true utopia is not this leftist communist alternative that you (falsely) find inextricably bound up with manichean worldviews, but the idea that we can go on as we are with only some slight changes to make liberal democracy better by degrees.

okay i was trying to bait you out of your bunker but i didn't expect this post to do the trick.

i'm a compatibilist by temperament. when i see two positions that can be bought together, i tend to do that and avoid unnecessary conflict, and in turn maximally preserve the positives of both positions. this conflict of the far left and center left is just unnecessary, built on misunderstandings with roots in the worldview of the far left.

as things stand, it's the far left that's being unfair. if the table is turned and it is the establishment that is being unfair, i'd be critical of them instead, as i have done in plenty of places.

i did say i have a low expectation of investment incentives based policy wrt to tackling very large problems of dysfunction seen throughout america. but i also don't see much of any good solutions. it's basically an unfortunate situation that will have to run itself through the cycles of despair and moving on, preferably to a city. it's not so much that i think capitalism has to be preserved, but there exist collective action problems that necessarily constrain options, even with full political will. in the very long run there may be alternatives, but not right now.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
parkufarku
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
882 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-30 20:27:54
January 30 2017 20:25 GMT
#134059
On January 31 2017 05:17 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2017 04:55 parkufarku wrote:
On January 30 2017 06:22 ChristianS wrote:
On January 30 2017 05:57 parkufarku wrote:
the way NYT handled this election / primaries made me quit going to their site. They are so biased that it's not even funny. I expected them to be more neutral as the biggest news source around. Maybe not completely neutral but still expected them to have some sort of neutral decency. Nope. Completely worked for the Establishment when zoning out Bernie and propping up Hillary. Then when general election comes, ignores all data and makes up some bullshit tracker on their front page that predicts Hillary will win 90% or something at the same exact day when another article on their front site specifically says it is predicted that Hillary won't do that well against Trump.

It turns out the BS probability tracker is just a tool they had to try to influence the decisions of the un-decided voters by faking the reality and making it seem like voting for Trump will be useless

I dislike Huffington Post but NYT is terrible.

No evidence that the NYT predictions were rigged to inflate Hillary's chances, nor is there any evidence that favoring her in prediction algorithms would make her more likely to win. + Show Spoiler [offtopic re. Plansix] +
Also, you're a spiteful person.



If you honestly believe that, I don't know what to tell you. There's a reason why dirty election tactic involves announcing for one candidate way before results are even clear - to make the voters feel like winner is already decided, so that your vote for the loser isn't gonna do any good, and to make the people feel like they are gonna vote for a winner and earn a victory. It's human psychology 101.

And:
+ Show Spoiler +
I couldn't give less shits about your opinion about me, it's pretty irrelevant

The opposite effect, i.e. the winner appearing inevitable so there's no reason to go out to the polls, is just as plausible. Hell, it's part of why I didn't vote in 2012. Studying which is more prevalent would be very hard because obviously if someone is down in the polls it's probably because they're unpopular, so their turnout would be lower even if no polls were published.

What we've got here is a classic cult of savviness:

"What's REALLY going on is [insert insidious conspiracy]"
"Oh really? What's the evidence that a more innocent explanation isn't the true one?"
" lol ur so naive, maybe someday ul be savvy like me prolly not"

In place of evidence you try to appeal to people's desire to be "in the know" to convince them to believe you. In reality most of the prediction models got it wrong, to varying degrees, and there's no reason to think NYT did it on purpose. They probably just underestimated correlated error like everyone else.


I get your point about how the inevitability of it may turn off some people from voting for their candidate - and it's a perfectly valid argument. But these people know what they're doing, and they announce that stuff not 3 hours before election booths open up but during the middle of it when most people are in line. So what you said may be true if they announced it way earlier, they do this when, by their statistics, most people should already be in line (those who were gonna vote anyway), and if you physically went to the location to vote, you're not gonna just leave the line and go home just because you heard some news claim their candidate was gonna win, you're gonna want to join in on the victory since you already made an effort to go out there.

WIth the tracker, yes, it's out there way before the actual election time to vote comes, but they still give a slight worry and uncertainty by not making it look like it's overwhelmingly a given. For example, they could say "Clinton has 80% chance to win" and put the commentary: you still need to help her incase something unexpected happens. This way it would still work with human psychology but it would still entice you to vote
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
January 30 2017 20:27 GMT
#134060
Trump claims he has made his SCOTUS decision and will announce it tomorrow evening.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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