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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
January 26 2017 22:54 GMT
#133161
considering the damage to the US economy from a trade war with mexico would exceed the cost of the wall, this seems pretty stupid. on the other hand, i'd give 50/50 odds that that the wall runs over 100b to build actually.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 26 2017 23:00 GMT
#133162
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

I'm not interesting in pointless moralizing. Here are the basic facts:

1) Mexico runs a huge trade surplus with the US
2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US (which is why the government actively encourages it, despite its brazen hypocrisy when it comes to its own southern border)
3) The US has huge leverage over Mexico given 1 and 2

I really don't give a flying fucking about Mexican feelings. If anything, and as a good American, you should start thinking about the above from the perspective of an American. Mexico is abusing our good will. And it is time that Mexico even out the ledger.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-26 23:03:46
January 26 2017 23:01 GMT
#133163
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

If you honestly think this is all because of a wall you're not paying attention. If you think Trump campaigned on a wall during the election because he thinks a wall is a good vanity project you vastly underestimate trumps vanity.

Also Mexico has a bunch of oil. And it goes into the gulf via texas. Thats a huge bargining chip as well if things get tough.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
January 26 2017 23:02 GMT
#133164
On January 27 2017 08:00 xDaunt wrote:

2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US


how?
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 26 2017 23:05 GMT
#133165
Now here is a very illuminating interview from the NY Times:

WASHINGTON — Stephen K. Bannon, President Trump’s chief White House strategist, laced into the American press during an interview on Wednesday evening, arguing that news organizations had been “humiliated” by an election outcome few anticipated, and repeatedly describing the media as “the opposition party” of the current administration.

“The media should be embarrassed and humiliated and keep its mouth shut and just listen for awhile,” Mr. Bannon said during a telephone call.

“I want you to quote this,” Mr. Bannon added. “The media here is the opposition party. They don’t understand this country. They still do not understand why Donald Trump is the president of the United States.”

The scathing assessment — delivered by one of Mr. Trump’s most trusted and influential advisers, in the first days of his presidency — comes at a moment of high tension between the news media and the administration, with skirmishes over the size of Mr. Trump’s inaugural crowd and the president’s false claims that millions of illegal votes by undocumented immigrants swayed the popular vote against him.

Mr. Bannon, who rarely grants interviews to journalists outside of Breitbart News, the provocative right-wing website he ran until last August, was echoing comments by Mr. Trump this weekend, when the president said he was in “a running war” with the media and called journalists “among the most dishonest people on earth.”

During a call to discuss Sean M. Spicer, the president’s press secretary, Mr. Bannon ratcheted up the criticism, offering a broad indictment of the news media as biased against Mr. Trump and out of touch with the American public. That’s an argument familiar to readers of Breitbart and followers of Trump-friendly personalities like Sean Hannity.

“The elite media got it dead wrong, 100 percent dead wrong,” Mr. Bannon said of the election, calling it “a humiliating defeat that they will never wash away, that will always be there.”

“The mainstream media has not fired or terminated anyone associated with following our campaign,” Mr. Bannon said. “Look at the Twitter feeds of those people: they were outright activists of the Clinton campaign.” (He did not name specific reporters or editors.)

“That’s why you have no power,” Mr. Bannon added. “You were humiliated.”

Of all of Mr. Trump’s advisers in the White House, Mr. Bannon is the one tasked with implementing the nationalist vision that Mr. Trump channeled during the later months of the campaign, one that stemmed from Mr. Bannon himself. And in many ways Mr. Trump’s first week has put into action that vision — from the description of “American carnage’’ Mr. Trump laid out in his inauguration speech, to a series of executive actions outlining policy on trade agreements, immigration, the building of a border wall and the demands that Mexico pay for it.

He is one of the strongest forces in a White House with competing power centers. A savvy manipulator of the press, and a proud provocateur, Mr. Bannon was among the few advisers in Mr. Trump’s circle who was said to have urged on Mr. Spicer’s confrontational, emotional statement to a shocked White House briefing room on Saturday, when the White House disputed press reports on the inauguration crowd size. He mostly shares Mr. Trump’s view that the news media has misunderstood the movement that the president rode into office.

On the telephone, Mr. Bannon spoke in blunt but calm tones, peppered with a dose of profanities, and humorously referred to himself at one point as “Darth Vader.” He said, with ironic relish, that Mr. Trump was elected by a surge of support from “the working class hobbits and deplorables.”

The conversation was initiated by Mr. Bannon to offer praise for Mr. Spicer, who has been criticized this week for making false claims at the White House podium about the attendance of Mr. Trump’s inaugural crowd, for calling reporters dishonest and lecturing them about what stories to write and for failing to disavow Mr. Trump’s lie about widespread voter fraud in the election.

Asked if he was concerned that Mr. Spicer had lost credibility with the news media, Mr. Bannon chortled. “Are you kidding me?” he said. “We think that’s a badge of honor. ‘Questioning his integrity’ — are you kidding me? The media has zero integrity, zero intelligence, and no hard work.”

“You’re the opposition party,” Mr. Bannon said. “Not the Democratic Party. You’re the opposition party. The media’s the opposition party.”

Mr. Bannon mostly referred to the “elite” or “mainstream” media, but he cited The New York Times and The Washington Post by name.

“The paper of record for our beloved republic, The New York Times, should be absolutely ashamed and humiliated,” Mr. Bannon said. “They got it 100 percent wrong.”

He added that he has been a reader of The Times for most of his adult life.


Source.

Pay very close attention to that bolded part. Y'all on the Left may want to start giving Trump and his team a little more respect. They are far more capable than you realize.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 26 2017 23:05 GMT
#133166
this does not seem like an optimal way to get mexico to cooperate to even out the ledger.
it seems more like a way to give mexico an easy way to not cooperate, and incentives for not cooperating.

unless you have a plan wherein there's some future deal that lets mexico look like they're standing up to you, but wherein america actually gets what it wants. but if you could pull off such a plan, it seems like there'd be a simpler plan with less blowback that would accomkplsih the game goals.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 26 2017 23:05 GMT
#133167
On January 27 2017 08:02 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:00 xDaunt wrote:

2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US


how?


Cross border ---> make 20x what you would in your shithole village ---> send half of it back to your family so they don't starve.

It is a very common practice. Lots of immigrants from Mexico, whether legal or not, are sending money back to their families because they desperately need it. It isn't uncommon for a ton of people to squeeze into an apartment in a bid to maximize money sent home.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
January 26 2017 23:05 GMT
#133168
On January 27 2017 08:02 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:00 xDaunt wrote:

2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US


how?

The incomes from ilegal immigrants sending money back to their families in mexico forms a very large pesudo welfare program. any disruption or difficulty in getting that money into mexico will result in rioting in the streets.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 26 2017 23:06 GMT
#133169
yea he's good at what he does, but what he's doing is poison to democracy and decency etc. so yea more hate
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 26 2017 23:08 GMT
#133170
On January 27 2017 08:02 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:00 xDaunt wrote:

2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US


how?

Transfer payments.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 26 2017 23:10 GMT
#133171
On January 27 2017 08:01 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

If you honestly think this is all because of a wall you're not paying attention. If you think Trump campaigned on a wall during the election because he thinks a wall is a good vanity project you vastly underestimate trumps vanity.

Also Mexico has a bunch of oil. And it goes into the gulf via texas. Thats a huge bargining chip as well if things get tough.

point of clarification: did you intend to write "underestimate" there, or is it a typo?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-26 23:13:39
January 26 2017 23:11 GMT
#133172
On January 27 2017 08:00 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

I'm not interesting in pointless moralizing. Here are the basic facts:

1) Mexico runs a huge trade surplus with the US
2) Mexico benefits hugely from illegal immigration to the US (which is why the government actively encourages it, despite its brazen hypocrisy when it comes to its own southern border)
3) The US has huge leverage over Mexico given 1 and 2

I really don't give a flying fucking about Mexican feelings. If anything, and as a good American, you should start thinking about the above from the perspective of an American. Mexico is abusing our good will. And it is time that Mexico even out the ledger.


You're looking at this from a purely economic perspective and completely ignoring the pragmatics of politics. Do you really think there will be no consequences to bullying nations we're supposed to be allies with?

This also ignores the the fact that the wall will not stop illegal immigration. Coupled with the fact that making Mexico's economy suffer will only increase the drive of people to make it into the u.s, and basically you're doing a lot of damage for little change.

You also jeopardize NAFTA renegotiations. If you want more fair dealings with Mexico then sort that shit out in renegotiating NAFTA. But to try and "even the ledger" over something as divisive as the wall is counterproductive and only results and people not wanting to cooperate.

Like zlefin said above if your goal is to even things out then this is the exact wrong approach to do.
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-26 23:12:25
January 26 2017 23:11 GMT
#133173
On January 27 2017 08:05 Mohdoo wrote:


Cross border ---> make 20x what you would in your shithole village ---> send half of it back to your family so they don't starve.

It is a very common practice. Lots of immigrants from Mexico, whether legal or not, are sending money back to their families because they desperately need it. It isn't uncommon for a ton of people to squeeze into an apartment in a bid to maximize money sent home.


how would that be any different from a LEGAL immigrant?
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 26 2017 23:15 GMT
#133174
On January 27 2017 08:11 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:05 Mohdoo wrote:


Cross border ---> make 20x what you would in your shithole village ---> send half of it back to your family so they don't starve.

It is a very common practice. Lots of immigrants from Mexico, whether legal or not, are sending money back to their families because they desperately need it. It isn't uncommon for a ton of people to squeeze into an apartment in a bid to maximize money sent home.


how would that be any different from a LEGAL immigrant?


It wouldn't be other than it increases the # of people doing it. Illegal immigrants add to the number of total immigrants doing it. I would also say that illegal immigrants have a higher % chance of doing it because they are more likely to come from poor places. A poor Mexican will not have an easy time immigrating to the US.
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
January 26 2017 23:16 GMT
#133175
and btw doesnt cheap labour force helps american businesses? :\
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 26 2017 23:17 GMT
#133176
On January 27 2017 08:16 dankobanana wrote:
and btw doesnt cheap labour force helps american businesses? :\


Yes, many shit-tier small business owners who like to feel like they are some kind of American hero for owning their own garbage business benefit quite a bit from hiring a cook for cash.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
January 26 2017 23:17 GMT
#133177
On January 27 2017 08:10 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:01 Sermokala wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

If you honestly think this is all because of a wall you're not paying attention. If you think Trump campaigned on a wall during the election because he thinks a wall is a good vanity project you vastly underestimate trumps vanity.

Also Mexico has a bunch of oil. And it goes into the gulf via texas. Thats a huge bargining chip as well if things get tough.

point of clarification: did you intend to write "underestimate" there, or is it a typo?

I'm pretty sure I spelled it right and the same way you did. A wall doesn't seem much compared to the guy who shits on gold toilets.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 26 2017 23:18 GMT
#133178
On January 27 2017 08:16 dankobanana wrote:
and btw doesnt cheap labour force helps american businesses? :\

businesses yes. low-wage workers, tend to be hurt by it, due to the competition.
goods, it varies.
it does help keep the price of fruit and such low, having people willing to work many hours in a day picking fruit and doing other such farm tasks for minimum wage (or less if illegal).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 26 2017 23:20 GMT
#133179
On January 27 2017 08:17 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:10 zlefin wrote:
On January 27 2017 08:01 Sermokala wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
On January 27 2017 07:08 Nyxisto wrote:
xDaunt you seem to be forgetting that the goods flowing into America from Mexico are also being consumed, you don't dump them into the river, so obviously punishing Mexico on the export side punishes American consumers on the import side. The US is free to start trade-wars left and right of course, but is that going to make Trump's core audience happy who actually relies on the stuff?

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course trade wars have bilateral adverse effects, just as real wars do. But it's very clear which country has the superior firepower. Trump is smart to use it to the US's advantage.


Smart? Risking damage to our economy just so somebody else funds Trump's vanity project? I think you're forgetting just how stupid and petty the basis of this argument is. For Mexico, it's an issue of national dignity. For Trump, considering the wall is to our benefit, not Mexicos, it's a matter of his ego that we don't just pay for it ourselves. You think that justifies damaging relationships and threatening a trade war?

If you honestly think this is all because of a wall you're not paying attention. If you think Trump campaigned on a wall during the election because he thinks a wall is a good vanity project you vastly underestimate trumps vanity.

Also Mexico has a bunch of oil. And it goes into the gulf via texas. Thats a huge bargining chip as well if things get tough.

point of clarification: did you intend to write "underestimate" there, or is it a typo?

I'm pretty sure I spelled it right and the same way you did. A wall doesn't seem much compared to the guy who shits on gold toilets.

ok, that makes sense; I was just surprised at the notion of someone underestimating trump's vanity.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
January 26 2017 23:21 GMT
#133180
On January 27 2017 08:18 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2017 08:16 dankobanana wrote:
and btw doesnt cheap labour force helps american businesses? :\

businesses yes. low-wage workers, tend to be hurt by it, due to the competition.
goods, it varies.
it does help keep the price of fruit and such low, having people willing to work many hours in a day picking fruit and doing other such farm tasks for minimum wage (or less if illegal).


as I understand, Trump wants to stregthen USA manufactureres and make them compete with China so I feel this is a missed opportunity. you cant compete if you do not lower wages
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
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