|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 08 2016 13:11 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 11:56 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2016 11:54 TheYango wrote:On November 08 2016 11:24 biology]major wrote:
Chelsea has the same charisma as her mom: none. Hillary is a testament to being successful at something that you aren't actually suited for, albeit with a lot of hand holding. I would argue that Hillary is well suited for the actual job of being an administrator, just not suited to the skillset that we require for someone to actually get the job. Charisma is like 90% of actually getting elected, but most of the actual work of being a politician isn't anywhere close to that. Being able to convince people to support your initiatives is pretty much the job of the president. That is something charisma is very useful for. You do not win individual people over with charisma. You win groups over with charisma but individual people are won over with face to face conversations that are deliberate and meticulous and she is good at those.
If the general population says "fuck no" on a certain political initiative, what effect does that have on its chances of success?
(No more of this though. I'm tired of this discussion.)
|
United States42004 Posts
On November 08 2016 13:08 Blisse wrote:I honestly hope that if Trump loses, he says something like this McCain video about Obama, and just cuts off his support of the awful rhetoric over the last 1.5 years. He's just caused so much stress and division, I'd really like for it to be over.
There was more patriotism in the bits of McCain left in North Vietnam than Trump has in his whole body though. Whether you agree or disagree with McCain politically he was always going to put country first.
|
On November 08 2016 13:08 Blisse wrote:I honestly hope that if Trump loses, he says something like this McCain video about Obama, and just cuts off his support of the awful rhetoric over the last 1.5 years. He's just caused so much stress and division, I'd really like for it to be over.
A while back I said that McCain was a good man and although I disagree with him on many points I also think he's a valuable part of our country. Not everyone agreed with me and I invite them to watch that video and compare it to the politician running as the Republican nominee today.
|
Canada11279 Posts
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case.
|
On November 08 2016 13:39 Falling wrote:
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case.
he did pick sarah palin as a running mate, so arguably he was the one who opened pandora's box
|
On November 08 2016 11:50 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 11:28 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2016 11:25 Yoav wrote:On November 08 2016 10:55 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't really understand the huge support for Obama but disappointment with Clinton. They're very close on policy issues and Clinton is arguably less aloof and better connected in Washington. Sure Obama was a charismatic guy but if you liked him you should be at least enthusiastic about Clinton. Charisma gap is real. But it's the trustworthiness thing above all. Obama is seen as a conviction politician. HRC is seen (charitably) as an opportunist.
Obama, for all his many faults (particularly in foreign policy), led the US for 8 years without major domestic catastrophe and a handful of legislative accomplishments. His administration's higher levels have never been involved in a scandal of scale, and he has personally never had anything resembling a scandal. Those are decent marks, all things considered. Bill's administration, for all of its success riding the dotcom boom and getting the budget in order, was scandal-plagued from the start, in nonsense that very often centered around Hillary. His major accomplishments include things like cracking down on "superpredators" which resulted in the modern incarceration state. She is just surrounded by a never-fading cloud of smarminess. And maybe it's all a "vast, right-wing conspiracy." Maybe. But there was a far more serious effort to impugn the honor of the nation's first black president than there was the first lady in the 90s, and it met with much less success because the charges are laughable rather than credible. Hillary hasn't really spelled out a vision for the presidency (which may be part of the problem). But mostly, her positions on paper (which are great) don't justify having faith in her as a leader, given her record and character. He also quit smoking after being elected. He is personable. I know things about him. Obama was a guy I felt like I knew a little bit about. Clinton? Fuck knows other than her collection of pantsuits. But lots of it is also just an act. Obama is always aware of what he says and he speaks very differently in front of different audiences. Whenever some lengthy insider piece about his conduct in government circles comes up the story was always that he is distanced, technocratic and a loner. He essentially governed outside of politics. His healthcare reform basically sidelined congress and his biggest achievements are on the international stage. His military policy is way more mercurial and secretive than anything before and his government was not very whistleblower friendly. He has really run one of the most shadowy governments in a long time, which isn't necessarily bad but you can't seriously counter this with "I know when the guy stopped smoking". I actually expect Hillary to be a lot more straight forward in the way she addresses America's political institutions.
I've been looking at this post for a while now and I still can't feel like I can answer it. I cannot agree with your views and do not believe I can convince you otherwise. I do believe that he puts on a face for every political adversary and constituent like all politicians and most people do across the world. It would be very naive to think otherwise. But I don't believe that it makes him so insincere that it is all a falsehood. I also do not believe or agree that he has spent more time than any other President acting outside of the division of powers. He spent the first four years of his Presidency going through great pains and producing little results by seeking bipartisan support instead of forcing through his policies. For all his attempts, he was rebuffed. Even in matters as critical as the US economy and preventing a devastating, global recession.
As far as secretive and shifty goes, I can't say that I have ever particularly felt that way either. He said he would withdraw US troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He kept that pledge. He said he would support democracies across the globe. He kept that pledge. Sometimes, like Libya and Syria, it resulted in messy and unpredictable situations where we as a country felt our involvement didn't benefit us or improve the conditions in the country. But with that same stroke I don't feel like anything he did was unpredictable or secretive.
I dunno about this one man. We'll just have to disagree. I think that the scandal of spying on our allies has affected your view of him in ways different than it Americans perceived it. While we were embarrassed, I don't think any of us were particularly mad over the long term that the US Government was doing it's job and making sure we didn't get shitfucked by surprise.
On November 08 2016 13:53 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 13:39 Falling wrote:
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case. he did pick sarah palin as a running mate, so arguably he was the one who opened pandora's box
She honestly didn't seem AS CRAZY right away. But then she started opening her mouth and it went downhill from there. That seemed more like a failure of the Republicans to properly investigate her character. An unknown Alaskan who wasn't controversial in the lower 48 states and a woman. Doesn't sound bad on paper.
On November 08 2016 13:39 Falling wrote:
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case.
This is succinctly what makes him a respectable man. He has nothing to gain by doing this and much to lose. He does it anyway. He holds the democratic process and nation as more important than his own success. That is one of the reasons why I said and will say again that if he was running today I would have voted for him instantly against Clinton.
|
On November 08 2016 13:55 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 13:53 ticklishmusic wrote:On November 08 2016 13:39 Falling wrote:
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case. he did pick sarah palin as a running mate, so arguably he was the one who opened pandora's box She honestly didn't seem AS CRAZY right away. But then she started opening her mouth and it went downhill from there. That seemed more like a failure of the Republicans to properly investigate her character. An unknown Alaskan who wasn't controversial in the lower 48 states and a woman. Doesn't sound bad on paper. Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 13:39 Falling wrote:
That was at a point where establishment Republicans still had a handle on their party and people like McCain were desperately trying to clamp down on the fringe element- but the fringe was definitely there all the same, waiting. Now they've been let out and are running amuck. Pandora's box, once opened, is not so easily closed.
I mean, it's not like McCain was doing the easy or popular thing in that video, either- he's getting booed pretty hard even 8 years go. No political expediency for him in this particular case. This is succinctly what makes him a respectable man. He has nothing to gain by doing this and much to lose. He does it anyway. He holds the democratic process and nation as more important than his own success. That is one of the reasons why I said and will say again that if he was running today I would have voted for him instantly against Clinton.
If I'm looking at character, I'd probably take him over Clinton. I'd definitely take him over Trump.
Based on what policies I'd expect to get to see enacted in a McCain administration starting in 2017 compared to Clinton starting 2017, I'd have to pick Clinton, though. McCain being president would give basically free reign to the Republican Congress, which has spent the last four to six years being monolithic and bad - 40 or so votes in the House to repeal Obamacare which some of them admitted were just for letting people have a record of having voted to repeal it and this nonsense with basically ignoring Merrick Garland's nomination to the Supreme Court in the Senate.
Also, McCain has sort of implied that he'll be joining the insanity of abandoning the "let the people pick the next President so they have a say in the next Supreme Court Justice" position and instead just blocking all of Clinton's nominations for the next four to eight years. That kind of was a blow to my view of his character. It makes it harder for me to respect him.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
John Rambo McCain defined himself by saying that he intended to stay in Iraq for the next 100 years. It's his "build a wall" statement and it's how I think of him as a potential president. I'm glad we didn't have him - I am not fully sure he is sane anymore.
|
Although I much prefer McCain to Trump and his answers about Obama were indeed commendable, one should not forget some of his more recent statements, votes, and policies championed. A few weeks ago, for example, he made the disgusting statement "I promise you that we will be united against any Supreme Court nominee that Hillary Clinton, if she were president, would put up" -- promising to continue to engage in one of the most despicable examples of obstructionism in recent memory. This may be election talk that he won't follow-up on once she's president, but he's still normalizing a behavior by Senate republicans that should be universally condemned by those interested in seeing government function normally.
|
Already 3 votes for Sanders and 1 vote for Romney lmao.
|
When I saw that 32-25 for a second I was like "Holy shit he's up 7% in New Hampshire!!"
><
|
Where are you guys getting your predticions from and when will the first polls be out today?
|
On November 08 2016 19:36 Artisreal wrote:
Where are you guys getting your predticions from and when will the first polls be out today?
Do you mean exit polls or election results? It seems every state has a different timetable
|
It's time! Get out there and vote!
|
Indeed.
And pray to whatever gods you believe in that on this day they show mercy, not justice.
|
On November 08 2016 20:18 Yoav wrote:
Indeed.
And pray to whatever gods you believe in that on this day they show mercy, not justice.
I prefer justice
|
Stay classy, Fox News:
Fox News wrongly links Republican anti-Trump protester to voter fraud
Fox News has falsely implicated the protester who was beaten up at a Donald Trump rally in a case of voter fraud involving absentee ballots issued in the name of his “dead” grandmother.
Austyn Crites, a Republican protester who was assaulted at a Trump rally in Nevada, was stunned to see a TV report associating him with fraudulent voting connected to a grandmother Fox News claimed died in 2002.
However, the Guardian met Wilda Austin, 90, in her living room in suburban Reno late on Monday. She was alive and well, although somewhat baffled that she was having to prove her identity to correct a TV broadcast that reported that she died 14 years ago.
“Please correct the record,” she said, arms crossed.
She declined to appear on camera, in part because the family has been subjected to a torrent of abuse and threats since Crites, 33, an inventor, was ejected from the Trump rally for holding a sign that read “Republicans against Trump.”
Source
|
On November 08 2016 20:18 Yoav wrote:
Indeed.
And pray to whatever gods you believe in that on this day they show mercy, not justice.
*John Podesta sacrifices a goat and drinks it's blood to appease Beelzebub*
Gonna be a really close election.
|
Can't get the song "It's the end of the World as we know it" by R.E.M. as it fits perfectly with this election and today in particular.
|
On November 08 2016 19:48 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2016 19:36 Artisreal wrote:
Where are you guys getting your predticions from and when will the first polls be out today? Do you mean exit polls or election results? It seems every state has a different timetable
Both actually.
Arnt even exit polls only allowed after the closure of every voting location?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
