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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 04 2016 05:48 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +Melania Trump says she'd work to improve a social media culture that has gotten "too mean and too tough" -- riddled with insults based on "looks and intelligence" -- if she becomes first lady.
But she didn't make any mention of the Twitter activities of her husband, Donald Trump, who has relentlessly attacked his political foes, journalists, critics and other entertainers for years with demeaning comments based on their appearances and intelligence. CNN
I honestly feel sometimes like we are in a 2 year long episode of Punk'd
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On November 04 2016 05:38 Plansix wrote:
They hold off and bring it to congress to impeach the president, citing that they did not want to interfere with the transfer of power or the election process. Then congress holds public hearings as the set out in the articles of the Constitution.
You are an attorney, you shouldn’t have to have these questions answered for you.
I'm not so sure the impeachment process is meant to deal with murder cases that happen outside of office.
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On November 04 2016 05:48 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +Melania Trump says she'd work to improve a social media culture that has gotten "too mean and too tough" -- riddled with insults based on "looks and intelligence" -- if she becomes first lady.
But she didn't make any mention of the Twitter activities of her husband, Donald Trump, who has relentlessly attacked his political foes, journalists, critics and other entertainers for years with demeaning comments based on their appearances and intelligence. CNN
So what you're saying is that she is vowing to become a SJW an work against the meanness of society. Does anti-PC Trump know about this plan?
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On November 04 2016 05:56 xDaunt wrote:
I have little patience for people telling me repeatedly what I've already admitted while completely missing the larger point that I'm trying to make. So disappointing.
You are consistent like the sun when it comes to your posting habits. It always ends with you leaving in a huff and calling everyone who proved you wrong stupid.
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On November 04 2016 05:57 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:38 Plansix wrote:
They hold off and bring it to congress to impeach the president, citing that they did not want to interfere with the transfer of power or the election process. Then congress holds public hearings as the set out in the articles of the Constitution.
You are an attorney, you shouldn’t have to have these questions answered for you.
I'm not so sure the impeachment process is meant to deal with murder cases that happen outside of office.
It is. That is how the President is removed from office if they commit a crime before or during their term.
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On November 04 2016 05:56 xDaunt wrote:
I have little patience for people telling me repeatedly what I've already admitted while completely missing the larger point that I'm trying to make. So disappointing.
The only FBI leaks we like around here are ones where agents call the Bureau "Trumplandia." A statement many took or are taking at face value.
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On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:07 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]that is the point. field office team made their presentation, got turned down.
they have to defer to rank in this kind of policy decision.
Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case.
COUGH COUGH your points 1 2 3 are outrageous claims with no proof. I'm out of this chain.
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On November 04 2016 06:02 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:56 xDaunt wrote:
I have little patience for people telling me repeatedly what I've already admitted while completely missing the larger point that I'm trying to make. So disappointing. The only FBI leaks we like around here are ones where agents call the Bureau "Trumplandia." A statement many took or are taking at face value.
Because, shockingly, talking about work place environment is not of national concern, and FBI agents wanting to take justice into their own hands is.
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On November 04 2016 06:03 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. COUGH COUGH your points 1 2 3 are outrageous claims with no proof. I'm out of this chain.
That's what's being reported! If you won't even concede those, then you aren't paying attention.
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On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:07 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]that is the point. field office team made their presentation, got turned down.
they have to defer to rank in this kind of policy decision.
Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case.
We dont know.
I guess
That is why we say that they should come forward with evidence so we are not guessing if they are influencing an election on gut instinct.
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On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:07 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]that is the point. field office team made their presentation, got turned down.
they have to defer to rank in this kind of policy decision.
Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case.
Seems like the point you still haven't answered, even in your hypothetical, is why they don't give actual evidence when they leak. If they did we could judge for ourselves how justified their illegal behavior is. Instead we just know they're doing something illegal by leaking.
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On November 04 2016 06:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:57 oBlade wrote:On November 04 2016 05:38 Plansix wrote:
They hold off and bring it to congress to impeach the president, citing that they did not want to interfere with the transfer of power or the election process. Then congress holds public hearings as the set out in the articles of the Constitution.
You are an attorney, you shouldn’t have to have these questions answered for you.
I'm not so sure the impeachment process is meant to deal with murder cases that happen outside of office. It is. That is how the President is removed from office if they commit a crime before or during their term.
You're still susceptible to criminal prosecution.
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On November 04 2016 06:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:02 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2016 05:56 xDaunt wrote:
I have little patience for people telling me repeatedly what I've already admitted while completely missing the larger point that I'm trying to make. So disappointing. The only FBI leaks we like around here are ones where agents call the Bureau "Trumplandia." A statement many took or are taking at face value. Because, shockingly, talking about work place environment is not of national concern, and FBI agents wanting to take justice into their own hands is.
Not of national concern, which is why it's being reported everywhere and being used as evidence that those other leakers are just Trumpists.
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On November 04 2016 06:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:03 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]
1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case
2. it is still going rogue
3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. COUGH COUGH your points 1 2 3 are outrageous claims with no proof. I'm out of this chain. That's what's being reported! If won't even concede those, then you aren't paying attention.
Listen and believe to the anonymous FBI agents breaking the law to influence your vote without providing you with all the details. They have your best interests at heart.
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On November 04 2016 06:07 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. Seems like the point you still haven't answered, even in your hypothetical, is why they don't give actual evidence when they leak. If they did we could judge for ourselves how justified their illegal behavior is. Instead we just know they're doing something illegal by leaking.
I answered that one, too. It's against protocol (for the obvious reason of not tipping off the suspect) to release evidence during an ongoing investigation. So if you're the FBI agent who firmly believes that you have a valid case that is being obstructed by your superiors for political reasons, you're in a rather tough spot. Clearly you're going to have to breach some protocol to get things moving, but which ones do you breach?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:10 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:07 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 04:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 04:46 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. you forget to mention all evidence were presented to senior officers and doj officials, and neither thought they merited aggressive investigation.
this decision is not made by the field agent. there is such a thing as the chain of command and following the structure of organization or you dont have a fbi you have a bunch of feuding agents. this is the very definition of going rogue No, see point Number 2. that is the point. field office team made their presentation, got turned down. they have to defer to rank in this kind of policy decision. Don't be so obtuse. You know what my point is. The FBI agents aren't deferring to their superiors because they are convinced that their superiors are deliberately obstructing the investigation for corrupt reasons. 1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case 2. it is still going rogue 3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot.
how did you conjure up this scenario of elaborate and multileveled corruption of career fbi senior leadership, doj attorneys and corruption investigators?
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On November 04 2016 05:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Campaign can't even stay consistent on the dumb things.
I wouldn't really consider Melania part of Trump's campaign necessarily. Even though her saying dumb things has gotten to be par for the course.
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On November 04 2016 06:08 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 04 2016 06:02 Introvert wrote:On November 04 2016 05:56 xDaunt wrote:
I have little patience for people telling me repeatedly what I've already admitted while completely missing the larger point that I'm trying to make. So disappointing. The only FBI leaks we like around here are ones where agents call the Bureau "Trumplandia." A statement many took or are taking at face value. Because, shockingly, talking about work place environment is not of national concern, and FBI agents wanting to take justice into their own hands is. Not of national concern, which is why it's being reported everywhere and being used as evidence that those other leakers are just Trumpists.
"National concern" as in threatening to public rights.
Not the same as "interesting on a national level".
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On November 04 2016 06:10 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:07 ChristianS wrote:On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]
1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case
2. it is still going rogue
3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. Seems like the point you still haven't answered, even in your hypothetical, is why they don't give actual evidence when they leak. If they did we could judge for ourselves how justified their illegal behavior is. Instead we just know they're doing something illegal by leaking. I answered that one, too. It's against protocol (for the obvious reason of not tipping off the suspect) to release evidence during an ongoing investigation. So if you're the FBI agent who firmly believes that you have a valid case that is being obstructed by your superiors for political reasons, you're in a rather tough spot. Clearly you're going to have to breach some protocol to get things moving, but which ones do you breach?
It is also equally likely that the FBI agents responsible for the leak are looking for advancement under the Trump administration.
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On November 04 2016 06:10 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:07 ChristianS wrote:On November 04 2016 05:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:47 Blisse wrote:On November 04 2016 05:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:37 hunts wrote:On November 04 2016 05:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:30 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:On November 04 2016 05:23 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]
1.you are guessing as to nature and quality of evidence and case
2. it is still going rogue
3. it is an extremely bad judgment of timing on going rogue 1) Correct. 2) Correct. 3) Not necessarily. If the evidence truly is damning, then it's not bad judgment. wtf? there is a big tradition of military and intelligence independence from civilian political meddling and this is not only a threat to the integrity of the fbi but to democracy itself Let's conduct a thought experiment to show just how absurd this is. Let's say that FBI agents have compelling evidence that a political candidate had murdered someone. Let's further presume those FBI agents took the evidence to their superiors requesting that further investigation be pursued, and the superiors refused the request and shut down the investigation for corrupt reasons. Your argument is that the real threat to democracy would be the FBI agents pushing for an investigation instead of the corrupt superiors suppressing evidence for the sake of the political candidate. Sorry, but that doesn't look so hot. You are making as many baseless assumptions now as nettles or zeo. Just stop. You may want to actually fucking pay attention to what my point is before talking. See here. Your points are baseless. They have no evidence. You can thought experiment this all you want, but the reality is that there's no evidence of any of this shit that you keep claiming. The FBI’s New York field office was one of a few that — in at least some small way — were looking into topics that touched on the Clinton Foundation’s work, according to people familiar with the matter. Agents in New York wanted to examine allegations of corruption and conflicts of interest that have swirled around the charitable organization of the Clinton family, the people said.
It is unclear what, if any, evidence they had to substantiate those allegations, particularly through subpoenas or search warrants. One person familiar with the matter said their presentation drew at least in part from media accounts over various foundation-related controversies.
That person, as the others in this story, spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of facing professional consequences for discussing the politically sensitive matter.
Republicans have long been critical of the Clinton Foundation, in particular Hillary Clinton’s dealings with its donors while she was secretary of state. When FBI agents met with prosecutors to argue for a more significant look into the foundation, the GOP was especially eager to attack the philanthropic organization during the height of the political primary season.
The revelation, though, that public integrity section prosecutors — who are not politically appointed — felt FBI investigators did not have a case is a strong defense for Clinton. The agents’ aggressive posture regarding the Clinton Foundation also could add to the perception that the bureau is treating the Democratic presidential candidate unfairly. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agents-pressed-justice-unsuccessfully-for-probe-of-clinton-foundation/2016/10/30/98c823ec-9ee9-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html *COUGH* *COUGH* Pay attention. *COUGH* On November 04 2016 04:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just set the record straight. We don't know what the FBI has evidence-wise. We don't know whether Hillary or the Clinton Foundation did anything illegal. All we know is that 1) the FBI agents very strongly believe that they have actionable evidence that warrants further investigation, 2) there very clearly is a dispute between the FBI agents on the ground and their political superiors both at the top of the FBI and with elements of the Justice Department with regards to how to proceed, and 3) that the Justice Department is actively obstructing the investigation of the FBI agents. Maybe the Justice Department is correct to interfere with the investigation. But I'm guessing that's probably not the case. Seems like the point you still haven't answered, even in your hypothetical, is why they don't give actual evidence when they leak. If they did we could judge for ourselves how justified their illegal behavior is. Instead we just know they're doing something illegal by leaking. I answered that one, too. It's against protocol (for the obvious reason of not tipping off the suspect) to release evidence during an ongoing investigation. So if you're the FBI agent who firmly believes that you have a valid case that is being obstructed by your superiors for political reasons, you're in a rather tough spot. Clearly you're going to have to breach some protocol to get things moving, but which ones do you breach?
Either you have evidence and show it.
Or you don't release your 'rumor' to pressure superiors a week before the presidential election
Pick one.
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EPT
