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On September 28 2016 04:37 angrybacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". Of course if the system is so silly that he could get away without paying taxes, why wouldn't he? But he's fighting to change that. Mostly everything was awful. Another awful moment was about the tax returns, he then says he will release them if Hillary releases her emails, and then the moderator asks if it's negotiable, and he says no, wtf Trump -__-. But yeah, just a rough rough time, curious to see how large of a shift in the polls it'll be. Imo it should be an easy 3 points, which would bring Trump chances for 45% to like 25% on 538, but we will see. But, now that he's admitted to paying no taxes and is proud of it, what does he have left to lose from releasing his returns?
Touche lol.
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On September 28 2016 04:37 angrybacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". Of course if the system is so silly that he could get away without paying taxes, why wouldn't he? But he's fighting to change that. Mostly everything was awful. Another awful moment was about the tax returns, he then says he will release them if Hillary releases her emails, and then the moderator asks if it's negotiable, and he says no, wtf Trump -__-. But yeah, just a rough rough time, curious to see how large of a shift in the polls it'll be. Imo it should be an easy 3 points, which would bring Trump chances for 45% to like 25% on 538, but we will see. He also said he "may" release his tax returns when Obama releases his birth certificate back in 2011. http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011/04/since-president-obama-released-his-birth-certificate-will-donald-trump-release-his-tax-returns.htmlBut, now that he's admitted to paying no taxes and is proud of it, what does he have left to lose from releasing his returns?
People questioning his wealth probably.
Idk, I think the whole idea is so stupid, I actually think the tax returns are so insignificant to everything else, I'm really shocked at how bad Trump has been with dealing with it, and how democrats push for such a silly issue imo.
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On September 28 2016 04:37 angrybacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". Of course if the system is so silly that he could get away without paying taxes, why wouldn't he? But he's fighting to change that. Mostly everything was awful. Another awful moment was about the tax returns, he then says he will release them if Hillary releases her emails, and then the moderator asks if it's negotiable, and he says no, wtf Trump -__-. But yeah, just a rough rough time, curious to see how large of a shift in the polls it'll be. Imo it should be an easy 3 points, which would bring Trump chances for 45% to like 25% on 538, but we will see. He also said he "may" release his tax returns when Obama releases his birth certificate back in 2011. http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011/04/since-president-obama-released-his-birth-certificate-will-donald-trump-release-his-tax-returns.htmlBut, now that he's admitted to paying no taxes and is proud of it, what does he have left to lose from releasing his returns?
The leverage for trying to stop the IRS auditing him?
I thought it was pretty clear a while ago he's trying to use people's desire to see his taxes as leverage against the IRS to stop auditing him.
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Because if he releases his returns it will show he paid no income tax.
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On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes".
spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. 
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On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Drumpf: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Drumpf calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality.
Yo 3 minutes is a long time, you just dont know the value of time. Trump does though.
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On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality.
Oh, I thought I was a weenie.
I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality.
But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side?
It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation.
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On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation.
It's also about whether he's worth as much as he says he is, and whether he gives to charity. His business acumen is a big part of his argument, so surely he is worth 10 billion. He wouldn't lie about that, would he?
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On September 28 2016 04:50 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation. It's also about whether he's worth as much as he says he is, and whether he gives to charity. His business acumen is a big part of his argument, so surely he is worth 10 billion. He wouldn't lie about that, would he?
He did just say that people questioning his wealth is probably the issue at hand here a bit above. So I would understand that post you quoted as "leaving out that how rich he really is issue for a moment, but here's the good point about it: [...]" and I'd probably agree with him on that. At least in principal, if you have a spark of trust left for Trump to actually go after that kind of thing.
Then again, he basicly said he just wants the position for prestige and will let his VP do all the things. So who knows
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On September 28 2016 02:12 Danglars wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 27 2016 23:23 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2016 23:05 kwizach wrote:On September 27 2016 18:22 Ghostcom wrote:On September 27 2016 18:05 Grumbels wrote:On September 27 2016 17:57 Ghostcom wrote:On September 27 2016 17:48 Grumbels wrote:On September 27 2016 17:32 DickMcFanny wrote:On September 27 2016 16:36 Grumbels wrote:On September 27 2016 15:54 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
as i am not an american who has to vote for either of those two..i am glad. i feel sorry for you guys out there. i can not come to terms that those two are in vote for presidency. what happend america Hillary Clinton is maybe not charismatic, but you can make a case that she is the most qualified, most honest and most transparent candidate in recent history. Obama and Sanders endorsed her, she has the full support of the democratic party. Hatred of HRC is 95% a consequence of right-wing smear campaigns and various types of sexist undercurrents in America. Viewed objectively she is a normal candidate, a normal politician, better than most and with many accomplishments throughout her life, plus the bonus factor of being potentially the first female president. Trump is an unabashedly sexist and racist cretin, literally a threat to world civilization. His ascendency is a total disgrace. Please don't equate these two in any way. . Gotta love this holier-than-though attitude. People like you are just as much to blame for Trump as right wing white supremacists are. "Sexist undercurrent" and "right wing smear", you have to be joking. There's a lot of objectionable shit about Hillary and the Clinton foundation, lots of reasonable concerns that she's just bullshitting. Please read this article which demonstrates what everyone already knows: people support the far right because they are racists and because they feel loss of status compared to minorities (see the whining about political correctness). It's not because of the left alienating people, it's because mainstream politicians can not abandon commitment to tolerance and modern governance to cater to white nationalists. And since no good deed goes unpunished they get called out of touch because of it. By the way, I don't know what you tried to imply, but sexism does exist in the USA and affects how people perceive Clinton. For instance, female authority is rejected. ( example) And there is a long history of right wing smears against Clinton. (some examples here) I might be misunderstanding you here: Are you implying that all of Trumps supporters are racists? Being racist correlates to supporting Trump and supporting the European populist parties. You can draw your own conclusions, but in my view Clinton wasn't wrong when she called half of Trump supporters "deplorable". I'm specifically asking you to expand on your statements because I don't want to jump to conclusions... Now you are stating that being racist (assumption: being racists towards non-whites) correlates to supporting Trump - which is likely true. However, I hope you can see the difference between this, and claiming that everyone who supports Trump are racist (which the initial post I responded to implied). So perhaps you can understand my confusion here? I don't see how Grumbels' initial post implied that every Trump supporter was racist. I don't think anyone believes that. I regularly see people in this thread confuse the statement "racists tend to vote for Donald Trump" with "Donald Trump supporters are all racists". It's a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made. As for sources for Grumbels' position, see here and see here for two studies pointing towards racial resentment being a strong indicator of support of Trump. I think partly the problem is sloppy use of terminology on my part. I'm guilty of conflating the following things: racist vs having racist beliefs, being a white nationalist vs supporting white nationalist movements. Racist is such a loaded word that you have to be more careful in using it, I guess. For the record, I don't think every supporter of these populist parties is actually a white nationalist, but I do think they are guilty of enabling racist rhetoric and empowering white nationalists. I also don't think that every person that has some unexamined racial biases or has feelings of resentment about other races is necessarily a hardcore movement racist, nevertheless they often serve as useful mainstream allies for actual white nationalists. Not all Trump supporters are racist and are attracted to Trump because of racism, but it's still very significant. And the fact that racial resentment correlates to Trump support just seems hugely significant and gives an important clue about his campaign and similar movements in Europe. By the way, my brother votes for the Dutch "freedom party" and as he's consuming a steady diet of these resentment-based media channels that promote white victimhood I can see him slowly radicalizing. One of his friends, who wasn't that politically active before now said the following: he doesn't believe in interracial marriage and he thinks there will be a pan-European conflict between the nationalists (the good guys) and the liberal globalists that use immigration to destroy our culture. People like Trump actually radicalize otherwise normal people, or at least play into their insecurities. It's dangerous. At least I can take you and people who think like you at their word. You really believe this stuff. I say it's a very dangerous conflation and betrays some deep flaws in your thinking you'll have to come to terms with if you're honest with yourself. Most recently, TheYango said it best: On September 24 2016 09:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
Because if we accept the premise that society teaches people to be white supremacists (or anti-black or whatever), then everyone in that society will have been taught to be a white supremacist (or anti-black or whatever) and hold those beliefs, consciously or not (and I add the consciously or not because that's what's being argued about me). So all that's left to differentiate the racists from the non-racists under this expansive definition of racism is mere virtue signalling. The people who recognize that society has taught them racist things and acknowledge that they sometimes act on what society has taught them are not racists, whereas the denier (ie yours truly) are still racists. Like I said earlier, this is an absurd dichotomy that further illustrates the absurdity of the over-expansive definition of racism. Intrinsically, I think the idea behind "everybody is a little racist" and "white privilege" and similar ideas isn't to put people into buckets of "racist" and "not racist", but just to make *everybody* (whether they're "racists" or not) a little more aware of how their perspective might color other people's impressions of the things they say or do, and to get everyone to be a little bit more introspective of how they treat people of other races. The goal is to educate and encourage introspection, which I don't think this is an ignoble goal. The problem is that "racist" is a word that has too many negative connotations and people just get hung up on the term, when applying negative monikers to people isn't the point at all. People on the left use it as a way to legitimize their overuse of a negative label and apply the label to people whose ideas they don't like, while people on the right get hung up on the term and just miss the point of what those ideas are about. I think introspection is a noble goal and hopefully new terms of dialogue will emerge to encourage that goal. I say that simply because any good intentions get lost in what has been a very blunt instrument to cast ideas out by assaulting the speaker's credibility. Why engage with a basket of deplorables? You're a rare one to meet where I live. Most people I hear with the line that I shouldn't vote for Trump because he's a racist and enables racists literally doesn't have any close family voting for Trump. It's very easy to demonize broad swaths of America because they're strangers and their reasons for choosing other than Hillary are strange. Someone's top two Trump said/did this and I could never vote for him are another person's top two Hillary said/did that and it immediately took her out of the running. + Show Spoiler +I'm only speaking to US parties here, because I haven't done enough research on the platforms of Europe's populist/nationalist/whatevers. The GOP is currently headed by a populist. The charge of racist has been leveled at other candidates. Four years ago, Romney was accused of being a racist. Cry wolf enough, and people stop taking you seriously. So I think everybody that's been crying wolf on immigration policy for decades is guilty of promoting some very inflated speech on race relations because that's the kind of politician they create by their actions to break through into the public consciousness. I mean, do you want to have a conversation with someone that will allow you you're not openly racist, maybe have some "unexamined racial biases or feelings of resentment," but will argue you're still guilty of empowering white supremacists and enabling racist rhetoric? I'd sooner accuse you of purposefully slandering people you disagree with because you ran out of real arguments against them. Or that you, Grumbels, would purposely stomp someone feeling like their culture is slipping away simply because you think only racists would be worried about that kind of stuff. But I happen to think you're not going that far to detest your fellow man and sincerely think you're helping things explaining why the people with Trump signs are guilty of enabling white racial fanatics. I dare you to read starting on this link for thirty odd pages. Maybe you can see how counterproductive current attitudes on race are. Let's debate politics, but of course at the outset we both know how your actions further the cause of known murderers (as an example). I mean you're somehow okay with promoting the aims of the scum of the earth. Yeah, 2016 right? Okay now about your thoughts on education policy...
I spotted that Kwark already had this conversation with you.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=4949#98971
I also don't understand your obsession with vindicating Romney. He's not some sort of misunderstood moderate politician who was wrongfully slandered. In running for president he espoused all the standard bits of GOP insanity and he is responsible for that regardless of his personal beliefs and intelligence.
Did you read this article by the way? From your comments one might deduce you read it and shared its opinion.
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On September 28 2016 04:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Because if he releases his returns it will show he paid no income tax.
Which he has already admitted and is proud of.
On September 28 2016 04:39 FiWiFaKi wrote:
People questioning his wealth probably.
Idk, I think the whole idea is so stupid, I actually think the tax returns are so insignificant to everything else, I'm really shocked at how bad Trump has been with dealing with it, and how democrats push for such a silly issue imo.
I think it might be an issue of him overstating his wealth. As he has said before, part of his net worth is a subjective valuation of how much he feels his "brand" is worth that day. The other possible issue could be that it shows him owing or receiving money from foreign entities or someone else who may make it seem as though he has a conflict of interests.
It is kind of a silly issue, but it's something every presidential candidate has done for the past 40 years. Given his talk of Hillary releasing things like e-mails, if he were to release them I think that gives him a more powerful position to say "OK, I released my taxes, where are your e-mails?". Maybe he's just playing the long game to make him releasing his tax returns seem like a grand gesture of openness to better hold against Hillary. I think if he doesn't release them before the next debate, there is reason to believe that he does still have something to lose in the matter, or he is totally misplaying his hand. Either way, it does not reflect well on him.
On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side?
I think you over estimate the level of knowledge required to game the tax system. I also sincerely doubt that Trump, or anyone else with his kind of money, prepares his own taxes. People hire accountants for that.
I also don't think he's on "our" side, I think he's in this for himself, but that's just my opinion.
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United States42640 Posts
On September 28 2016 04:43 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Drumpf: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Drumpf calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Yo 3 minutes is a long time, you just dont know the value of time. Trump does though.
In the 3 minutes before the candidates even came onto the stage there was too much information available to make the bet fair. The odds were shifted by those empty podiums and you couldn't be expected to stick to the agreed terms. That's why you had to withdraw from the bet. It's just a coincidence that you withdrew after the debate was complete and your horse lost. But nobody could think there was anything wrong with withdrawing from it after you already had information that impacted it like watching the whole debate, after all, the other guy only agreed to it after getting information from those empty podiums so who is the real bad guy here.
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On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation.
This would actually be valuable if he were the only one that was aware of these loopholes, and tax planning methods. He is not, we have known about the vast majority of the tools the rich use to dodge taxes since the beginning of the tax code... just ask any good CPA or CFA and you would get a laundry list of them. there is not enough political willl on the part of our representatives to remove these loopholes because they themselves and their controlling lobbies are the primary beneficiaries.
Stop being naive enough to think that a president can do anything beyond move with the massive popular momentum, or restrain it while he has political capital left. Obama did the same thing with the ACA, he thought he could change the momentum of the country without the full throated will of the people, and that one piece of legislation ruined the rest of his time in office, and wasted years of possible congressional support on other issues where there was a large consensus and he could have actually made good progress like immigration at the time, or even taxes.
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On September 28 2016 05:02 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation. This would actually be valuable if he were the only one that was aware of these loopholes, and tax planning methods. He is not, we have known about the vast majority of the tools the rich use to dodge taxes since the beginning of the tax code... just ask any good CPA or CFA and you would get a laundry list of them. there is not enough political willl on the part of our representatives to remove these loopholes because they themselves and their controlling lobbies are the primary beneficiaries. Stop being naive enough to think that a president can do anything beyond move with the massive popular momentum, or restrain it while he has political capital left. Obama did the same thing with the ACA, he thought he could change the momentum of the country without the full throated will of the people, and that one piece of legislation ruined the rest of his time in office, and wasted years of possible congressional support on other issues where there was a large consensus and he could have actually made good progress like immigration at the time, or even taxes.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, only I think that history will prove that the passage of the ACA was not a waste. Honestly, I think time will make Obama look more and more favorable, particularly once the Republican Party or its replacement gets its shit together.
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On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation.
under the first amendment i reserve the right to use whatever playground insult i want on you.
i'm fine with a rich person following the law and paying as little tax as possible. no one is obligated to pay more than whatever is calculated on the IRS forms. besides, ill bet trump has never done his own taxes in his life (he's got "the best" people) on it.
what im not okay is a guy who used a fake charity to commit tax fraud and as a personal piggy bank.
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On September 28 2016 05:05 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 05:02 Trainrunnef wrote:On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation. This would actually be valuable if he were the only one that was aware of these loopholes, and tax planning methods. He is not, we have known about the vast majority of the tools the rich use to dodge taxes since the beginning of the tax code... just ask any good CPA or CFA and you would get a laundry list of them. there is not enough political willl on the part of our representatives to remove these loopholes because they themselves and their controlling lobbies are the primary beneficiaries. Stop being naive enough to think that a president can do anything beyond move with the massive popular momentum, or restrain it while he has political capital left. Obama did the same thing with the ACA, he thought he could change the momentum of the country without the full throated will of the people, and that one piece of legislation ruined the rest of his time in office, and wasted years of possible congressional support on other issues where there was a large consensus and he could have actually made good progress like immigration at the time, or even taxes. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, only I think that history will prove that the passage of the ACA was not a waste. Honestly, I think time will make Obama look more and more favorable, particularly once the Republican Party or its replacement gets its shit together.
I think the final version of the law was too much swiss cheese to be worth the cost of the political capital that he and the democrats burned in the process. The optics and oposition to this one act lost the democrats the supermajority and stoked the fires of the ultra-partisanship that we see today. In hindsight its easy to say that it was a waste, im sure they didn't see it that way at the time, and as you say history may prove otherwise, but Obama's presidency could really have been on the level of FDR if he had picked his battles more wisely. He was smart, charismatic, and came in with the highest level of support we have seen in a while.
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On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". Of course if the system is so silly that he could get away without paying taxes, why wouldn't he? But he's fighting to change that. Mostly everything was awful. Another awful moment was about the tax returns, he then says he will release them if Hillary releases her emails, and then the moderator asks if it's negotiable, and he says no, wtf Trump -__-. But yeah, just a rough rough time, curious to see how large of a shift in the polls it'll be. Imo it should be an easy 3 points, which would bring Trump chances for 45% to like 25% on 538, but we will see.
The "you should release your deleted emails" thing was quite possibly the worst way to handle a weapon the Republican establishment as a whole has been honing for the past two years I can imagine. It demonstrated such a complete failure to understand the problem with the server and what she did wrong that it allowed her to just say "I fucked up" full stop.
It really does not make even a modicum of sense to say she needs to release her 30K deleted emails in the context of the larger scandal-especially since that is obviously not her decision in any way whatsoever. Just baffling.
It's up there with saying she needs to apologize for ordering our troops into Ben Ghazi's house.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 28 2016 05:17 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". Of course if the system is so silly that he could get away without paying taxes, why wouldn't he? But he's fighting to change that. Mostly everything was awful. Another awful moment was about the tax returns, he then says he will release them if Hillary releases her emails, and then the moderator asks if it's negotiable, and he says no, wtf Trump -__-. But yeah, just a rough rough time, curious to see how large of a shift in the polls it'll be. Imo it should be an easy 3 points, which would bring Trump chances for 45% to like 25% on 538, but we will see. The "you should release your deleted emails" thing was quite possibly the worst way to handle a weapon the Republican establishment as a whole has been honing for the past two years I can imagine. It demonstrated such a complete failure to understand the problem with the server and what she did wrong that it allowed her to just say "I fucked up" full stop. It really does not make even a modicum of sense to say she needs to release her 30K deleted emails in the context of the larger scandal-especially since that is obviously not her decision in any way whatsoever. Just baffling.
All he had to do was quote Director Comey all day long and he could turn the email deal into "not fit to handle government secrets." Easily.
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United States42640 Posts
On September 28 2016 05:14 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 05:05 farvacola wrote:On September 28 2016 05:02 Trainrunnef wrote:On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation. This would actually be valuable if he were the only one that was aware of these loopholes, and tax planning methods. He is not, we have known about the vast majority of the tools the rich use to dodge taxes since the beginning of the tax code... just ask any good CPA or CFA and you would get a laundry list of them. there is not enough political willl on the part of our representatives to remove these loopholes because they themselves and their controlling lobbies are the primary beneficiaries. Stop being naive enough to think that a president can do anything beyond move with the massive popular momentum, or restrain it while he has political capital left. Obama did the same thing with the ACA, he thought he could change the momentum of the country without the full throated will of the people, and that one piece of legislation ruined the rest of his time in office, and wasted years of possible congressional support on other issues where there was a large consensus and he could have actually made good progress like immigration at the time, or even taxes. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, only I think that history will prove that the passage of the ACA was not a waste. Honestly, I think time will make Obama look more and more favorable, particularly once the Republican Party or its replacement gets its shit together. I think the final version of the law was too much swiss cheese to be worth the cost of the political capital that he and the democrats burned in the process. The optics and oposition to this one act lost the democrats the supermajority and stoked the fires of the ultra-partisanship that we see today. In hindsight its easy to say that it was a waste, im sure they didn't see it that way at the time, and as you say history may prove otherwise, but Obama's presidency could really have been on the level of FDR if he had picked his battles more wisely. He was smart, charismatic, and came in with the highest level of support we have seen in a while.
Or, alternatively, he was going to face opposition no matter what he attempted to do so he had to attempt to do the maximum good as quickly as possible because before he was even sworn in the Republican party was pledging to never work with him and do all they could to block anything with his name on it.
Obamacare has helped an awful lot of people get healthcare. It literally saves lives every day. There was never going to be a version of reality in which Obama won a consensus through charisma, diplomacy and the strength of his arguments. I think the rise of Trump, birtherism and the alt-right is a sure sign of that. A large proportion of the American population, and one that is extremely well represented in the legislative, was never going to follow a black man's lead. It just wasn't going to happen. The basket of deplorables didn't appear overnight, they were always there.
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On September 28 2016 05:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 05:14 Trainrunnef wrote:On September 28 2016 05:05 farvacola wrote:On September 28 2016 05:02 Trainrunnef wrote:On September 28 2016 04:44 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 04:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 28 2016 04:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 28 2016 03:58 angrybacon wrote:On September 28 2016 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 28 2016 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
I rememeber nothing from last night but I don't see anything interesting happened so I don't care now. Trump: - Sinking an Iranian ship in international waters would not cause war - Stop and frisk is constitutional - Many people agree with Trump calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig - Being under audit prevents him from releasing tax returns - Took credit for forcing Obama to release his tax returns Also: - Claims his temperament is his greatest asset - Is proud of not paying any taxes - Said "Wrong!" more times than I cared to count, and was usually incorrect in doing so - Blamed his microphone for his performance The one thing that I genuinely think is a good thing is "him not paying taxes". spoken like someone who would weasel his way out of a bet on a technicality. Oh, I thought I was a weenie. I gave my rationale in the thread, and it was not a technicality. But straight up, someone who sees how rich people get away without paying taxes and agrees it's an issue... ? Isn't this exactly what you want, someone who has thought this way, and now he's on our side? It's like people who've never seen a gun talking about gun regulation. This would actually be valuable if he were the only one that was aware of these loopholes, and tax planning methods. He is not, we have known about the vast majority of the tools the rich use to dodge taxes since the beginning of the tax code... just ask any good CPA or CFA and you would get a laundry list of them. there is not enough political willl on the part of our representatives to remove these loopholes because they themselves and their controlling lobbies are the primary beneficiaries. Stop being naive enough to think that a president can do anything beyond move with the massive popular momentum, or restrain it while he has political capital left. Obama did the same thing with the ACA, he thought he could change the momentum of the country without the full throated will of the people, and that one piece of legislation ruined the rest of his time in office, and wasted years of possible congressional support on other issues where there was a large consensus and he could have actually made good progress like immigration at the time, or even taxes. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, only I think that history will prove that the passage of the ACA was not a waste. Honestly, I think time will make Obama look more and more favorable, particularly once the Republican Party or its replacement gets its shit together. I think the final version of the law was too much swiss cheese to be worth the cost of the political capital that he and the democrats burned in the process. The optics and oposition to this one act lost the democrats the supermajority and stoked the fires of the ultra-partisanship that we see today. In hindsight its easy to say that it was a waste, im sure they didn't see it that way at the time, and as you say history may prove otherwise, but Obama's presidency could really have been on the level of FDR if he had picked his battles more wisely. He was smart, charismatic, and came in with the highest level of support we have seen in a while. Or, alternatively, he was going to face opposition no matter what he attempted to do so he had to attempt to do the maximum good as quickly as possible because before he was even sworn in the Republican party was pledging to never work with him and do all they could to block anything with his name on it. Obamacare has helped an awful lot of people get healthcare. It literally saves lives every day. There was never going to be a version of reality in which Obama won a consensus through charisma, diplomacy and the strength of his arguments. I think the rise of Trump, birtherism and the alt-right is a sure sign of that. A large proportion of the American population, and one that is extremely well represented in the legislative, was never going to follow a black man's lead. It just wasn't going to happen. The basket of deplorables didn't appear overnight, they were always there.
Totally forgot about the bolded part.
I would say that in large part the deplorables have expanded their base of support and grown to the levels they have due to fear/animosity toward the BLM movement, the rise of islamic extremism/ISIS, and the slow economic recovery. That group wasn't as well represented at the time that he took office; maybe they would have come out regardless of what laws he tried to pass, who knows, but I believe he could have easily passed some common sense gun laws, immigration reform similar to the gang of 8 bill, and maybe some minor tax adjustments if he managed to get it revenue neutral or offset tax raises with spending cuts that republicans would have wanted.
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EPT
