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On September 21 2016 10:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:27 LegalLord wrote:
If policy were the entire story, Hillary would easily have my vote. The matters I trust her to act like a bumbling idiot on, including FP and trade, most presidents would probably do badly so I have no choice. But to put it simply, I need to see Hillary actually campaigning on those issues that her supporters say she is going to implement. I was hoping to watch the DNC and get a good idea of what platform she intends to push as president. No dice; identity politics, attacks on Trump, and distortions of reality is all I got. It makes me wonder if she intends to simply use Trump as a tool to enable herself to push the worst of her possible platform, and justify it by some "lesser of two evils" appeal again. Ultimately there is no good choice this election so I have to make do with what I have. But I don't blame others of about my political alignment of staying home, voting third party, or voting Trump if Hillary's supposed strengths are not pushed as policy suggestions by her campaign, and her faults are as real as I could plainly see they were a year ago. We are in a post policy election. There is no way to get through the noise and reach voters talking about policy. The last 12 stories I have seen on my news feed are about Trump saying anything. He speaks, they report on it. Clinton talks about policy, no one gives a shit or reads. Trump is promising to create 25 million well paying jobs from literally nothing. I don't know how you talk about policy when the other side is promising hover boards because is past 2015.
Yeah, at this point the people who care about policy know her positions. Last few months of the election is appealing to the lowest common denominator. Then again Trump has been doing that for more than a year so the efficacy of policy discussions seems to be questionable.
Its sad though, anywhere you go in the world politicians that play the gutter game always force sensible ones into playing the poop throwing contest because thats what people seem to want to see. Trump isnt doing anything ingenuous or new. Hes doing the same shit you will see politicians in third world countries doing every day (mine included) and when I start drawing parallels in the state of the politics the similarities are quite shocking.
And ive observed it steadily evolve since the crisis which is a bit after I moved to the US for college.
Over 300 years of practicing democracy and the US election process is on par with a third world country that has spent half its existence under martial law.
Pretty telling.
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On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency.
The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could.
She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't.
Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
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On September 21 2016 10:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 09:53 Amarok wrote:On September 21 2016 09:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 21 2016 08:41 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 21 2016 08:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Hillary Clinton is having a harder time beating Donald Trump than she bargained for. According to a recent poll, a staggering 44% of millennials say they’ll be voting for either Green party candidate Jill Stein or Libertarian Gary Johnson. The chief reason for Clinton’s dip in these polls is not – as Barack Obama claimed on Sunday – that she’s a woman (though sexism does have a lot to answer for). It’s because Clinton has assumed a third of the electorate – millennials – would vote for her out of fear of her opponent.
Simply put, we want more.
Millennials are the generation that has occupied Wall Street, shut down bridges for black lives and chained ourselves to the White House fence to stop the Keystone XL pipeline. Disillusioned by Obama’s embrace of war and austerity alike – especially after knocking on doors to get him elected – we know better than to put blind faith in any candidate for the Oval Office.
What Clinton can do now is prove that she’s listening. Doing so could bear fruit in the polls, but only if she shows she’s willing to part ways with her billionaire friends and push for policies that are in line with what millennials really want.
Since the Democratic national convention, Clinton and Trump have peddled their own politics of fear. Hers: of an ascendant far-right. His: of immigrants and the prospect of a truly multi-racial democracy. If Bernie Sanders’ primary campaign showed anything, though, it’s that young Americans are eager to vote for something – not against it.
Laying out plans for single-payer healthcare and a $15 minimum wage, Sanders beat Clinton among millennials in each one of the 27 states where they faced off in the primaries. And he might still be the most popular politician in the US today.
At a time when Americans across the political spectrum are turning against the status quo, Clinton seems to be embracing it. She spent weeks in August wooing millionaire donors in Silicon Valley and Martha’s Vineyard, and has chased endorsements from Bush-era official and war criminals like Henry Kissinger. It’s out of frustration that millennials will register protest votes, not ignorance.
Make no mistake: a vote for either Jill Stein or Gary Johnson in a swing state is a vote for Trump, and could land the US in a situation more dangerous and unstable than any it has known yet. Clinton is this country’s best hope right now. Especially if we want to avoid a future defined by hostility towards immigrants and people of color, the near certainty of catastrophic global warming and a disastrous economic plan ripped straight from the Tea Party’s playbook.
But making sure that painful, hate-filled future never comes to pass is up to the Clinton campaign now, and its ability to make an earnest and heartfelt appeal to the future of the Democratic party.
So what is it that millennials actually want? Around 70% favor wealth redistribution, one Gallup poll found, and many are eager to avoid six-figure debt for things like education and routine visits to the doctor’s office. The Movement for Black Lives released a detailed policy agenda this summer with plenty of ideas for senior Clinton staffers, and round-the-clock protests against the Dakota Access pipeline should give them a sense for where young Americans stand on new fossil fuel infrastructure and violations of indigenous rights. Source + Show Spoiler [short rant] +The more I read these self-righteous, I'm-so-idealistic posts the less faith I have in my generation. Do these people not know that Clinton has pushed for most of the things they want in some for another her entire career? And maybe that some of the things they want are actually pretty stupid or unimplementable, and there's a reason a politician who is by most reasonable standards somewhere between very and pretty liberal doesn't support some particular initiatives like banning fracking or Medicare for all? Do they not understand how the incredibly flawed world we live in works?
I don't think they are aware of that at all, or clearly don't care. Heck, even Bernie has said this- that his supporters should get behind Hillary because of similar philosophies and policies- and way too many of them just don't give a shit. Anecdotally speaking, every Trump supporter I know is voting for him because he's "not Hillary", and every Stein or Johnson supporter I know is voting for them because Hillary "stole" the election from Bernie, who they had originally wanted to vote for. They'd rather screw over the country with their temper tantrum, and cut off their nose (and cut out their brain?) just to spite their face. The Trump and Stein/Johnson supporters aren't comparable at all. "Not Hillary" is a stance that's taken because people think she'd be a genuine disaster. It's a nod to the fact that it's not the choice they'd prefer, but it's one they have to make anyway. It's not "cutting off your nose to spite your face" at all. The people who wanted Bernie but are now "sticking it to the Democrats" by not voting for Hillary- when she's the better of the only two candidates who could become president- are absolutely cutting off their nose to spite their face. They wanted, say, 20 things from Bernie; they can only get 10 of them with Hillary; they're helping Trump beat Hillary and so they'll get 0 of those things. That's what I was referring to... sorry if it wasn't clear.
Ahh ok. That makes sense.
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On September 21 2016 10:22 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:05 TheFish7 wrote:
This is the anti-establishment year. Hillary is about as establishment as one can get, and a lot of Bernie supporters don't want her because they would see voting for her as giving up on the revolution.
For me personally, I don't want anyone named Clinton, Bush, or Roosevelt for that matter to be president again for maybe 100 years or so. This to me is like hereditary succession of the British Crown all over again. I am leaning towards her only because Trump's policies and ideas are insane and scare me, but I still might throw out a protest vote to the Green party or Libertarians because, not living in a swing state, my vote doesn't count anyway.
Probably sounds pretty nuts to most of you, but this is the kind of thinking a lot of people are having right now. I mean FDR was closer related to his wife than Teddy Rosevelt lol. Lots of sons and more recently daughters and wives of important politicians have gotten into politics, very few of them have wound up coming anywhere close to becoming president. As long as they're the best (or at least less bad) canidate for president, I have no problem with it. Very few people are voting for HIllary because of Bill, and even less people voted for Dubya because of his one term daddy. People should be more upset about the fact that the two party system is so entrenched that its never going to go away then the fact that a Clinton might be president again. If Chelsea is running a campaign based on my name is Clinton its my time, then you can worry.
I think that Dubya was helped quite a bit by his family. Not just because people recognized his Dad's name, but also because the Bushes are rich and powerful and reap the benefits that come along with that. I do also think Bill is helping Hillary pick up white working class votes.
And in my estimation, the two party system is fine, but it is only fine so far long as the primaries are a fair policy debate. The DNC did everything they could to elevate Hillary this time around.
Most of this stuff is just symptomatic of the long term trend - fewer and fewer people acquiring more and more power and wealth in this country.
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On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
I guess women's reproductive rights are up there. I'm seriously baffled by how little attention the fact gets that this years Republican platform might be the most drastic setback women have seen in a long time. And there's like over a hundred million of them
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I'm sure it's been discussed before, but given the widespread dissatisfaction with the candidates this year what are people's thoughts on first past the post vs preferential voting systems (similar to what we have here in Australia).
Being able to vote for someone who more closely aligns with my views while still directing my vote to my preferred major candidate seems like a pretty good system on balance. Given the fractured nature of modern political discourse it seems like a system better suited out time.
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ggrrg -> well, we simpyl disagree then. I feel like, while both sides have had some pushing of false narratives; the republican side has made an express point of trying to discount everything on other media as biased, and has had elements within it that push very hard for an echo chamber effect, and to refuse to accept disconfirming evidence. They've been much more actively pushing a "media lies" system.
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On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency. The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could. She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't. Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
GH, I don't believe you at all. I watched Bernie fucking plead with supporters to be good during the convention and work with the DNC. On camera I watched that talk and they might as well have given him the bird. They were all for supporting Bernie until it came time worth with the democrats. And then they did what the progressive wing always does, refuse to compromise at all. Refuse to meet people in the middle. I watched it happen with ACA after Obama was elected and I'm seeing again. Its like they think the biggest problem they have are the moderate democrats and the Republicans don't exist.
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On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency. The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could. She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't. Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
Donald Trump
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On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency. The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could. She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't. Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
.... because Bernie has a stellar track record of fighting against significant opposition and getting shit implemented. And therefore adopting or coming closer to his policy positions as someone who has failed to do so is a lie. Oh wait hes the ammendmant king. Tacking on stuff to things that were going to pass anyway, Fierce opposition I tell you.
But then tough laws like gun control come into the picture and whoop.
Outside of niche throw a dog a bone facets of policy making his voting record is pretty Similar to Clinton (Iraq being a notable exception). Then again Hillarys FP positions are pretty shit, but so have Obamas sooo.
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Revolutions are a terrible idea and so is Trump.
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amarok -> everyone who's studied the matter a fair bit, like most of us here; favors trying out some alternatives to FPTP; but the public at large isn't so aware of it; and the powers that be tend to prefer the system as it is, and that's hard ot change.
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On September 21 2016 10:48 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented? I guess women's reproductive rights are up there. I'm seriously baffled by how little attention the fact gets that this years Republican platform might be the most drastic setback women have seen in a long time. And there's like over a hundred million of them
I presume the policy you're talking about is increased access to plan B pills?
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In a lot of ways I agree with GH that it's been a race to the bottom. But the simple yet rather unpleasant reality is that it's stupid to sit these things out, and if Hillary's attitude is the problem, then Trump and the Republican Party is not only not the solution, but the problem on steroids. There is no solution right now and the best choice is simply to vote for status quo mediocrity and wait for a better chance.
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On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency. The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could. She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't. Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented?
Like your side wasn't smug as all heck about being more progressive while discounting all the achievements and efforts of the mainstream Democratic party and harping on its shortcomings. You didn't expect people to listen, you expected them to nod in agreement and let you run the show.
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On September 21 2016 10:52 zlefin wrote:
amarok -> everyone who's studied the matter a fair bit, like most of us here; favors trying out some alternatives to FPTP; but the public at large isn't so aware of it; and the powers that be tend to prefer the system as it is, and that's hard ot change.
Cheers.
Out of curiosity, how would such a change be enacted theoretically? Would it just be a standard piece of legislature that had to pass through Congress? What role would the states have?
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On September 21 2016 10:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:48 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented? I guess women's reproductive rights are up there. I'm seriously baffled by how little attention the fact gets that this years Republican platform might be the most drastic setback women have seen in a long time. And there's like over a hundred million of them I presume the policy you're talking about is increased access to plan B pills?
She's been pushing for equal pay and better healthcare access for decades now. On the other side is a guy who wants to literally criminalize abortions and defund Planned Parenthood
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On September 21 2016 10:57 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2016 10:28 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2016 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
lol. Look back at the last few pages if you don't understand why Bernie supporters didn't hop on the Hillary bus.
We do know what she's done, that's one reason we don't support her. She's not going to have the house so she'll pass nothing Republicans wouldn't pass on their own. She's shown multiple times that she's willing to flat out lie to us for months on end. People convincing themselves she's going to push a liberal agenda with any success are deluding themselves. Pretending we had anything to do with it is silly. You feel comfortable not voting for Clinton because you aren't concerned with the differences between a trump and clinton presidency. The hell I am, I'm just more uncomfortable with the race to the bottom being cheered on by some here. You all are just a mirror of what I've seen in person. Hillary supporters were smug, telling us they didn't need us at their meetings, etc... Hillary says she "worked with Bernie" on the platform, that was Bernie's delegates going above and beyond even what the campaign wanted in fighting it out at the convention sub committee meetings. Like pulling teeth, just for her to 180 on things like $15 min wage as soon as she could. She's a serial liar and has you all convinced that she's going to be something she isn't. Several people repeated the "But she'll get you closer to what you want better than Bernie could have". Please tell me what policies you are imagining that she fought for against significant opposition and still got implemented? Like your side wasn't smug as all heck about being more progressive while discounting all the achievements and efforts of the mainstream Democratic party and harping on its shortcomings. You didn't expect people to listen, you expected them to nod in agreement and let you run the show.
No no don't you see its different when someone else does it to them
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On September 21 2016 10:58 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 10:52 zlefin wrote:
amarok -> everyone who's studied the matter a fair bit, like most of us here; favors trying out some alternatives to FPTP; but the public at large isn't so aware of it; and the powers that be tend to prefer the system as it is, and that's hard ot change. Cheers. Out of curiosity, how would such a change be enacted theoretically? Would it just be a standard piece of legislature that had to pass through Congress? What role would the states have?
Given the scope of the change, it would likely have to be passed as an amendment to the Constitution because it fundamentally changes the way elections operate. That requires a lot of factors and a supermajority to pass.
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EPT
