|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 20 2016 14:01 Doodsmack wrote: Hopefully if Trump is elected the liberal SC justices will remain long enough to hear the challenges to his immigration plans.
I bet Democrats don't blow off supporters of someone like Bernie next time around if Trump wins, If Hillary wins, you can count on her going even further to the right over the course of her term (it would be what Democrats told her she could/should do).
|
On September 20 2016 13:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote: [quote] Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:[quote] At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one. It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care. Democrats thinking they had my vote because they've got it before is the type of stupidity that would make someone like Trump consider me not voting for him a gift to him. Democrats can think whatever they want but someone still needs 270. And it might be Donald Trump. + Show Spoiler + If DWS didn't do such a terrible job in the DNC and Democrats hadn't spent decades taking advantage of people not participating then we wouldn't even need to worry about getting 270. Democrats got themselves into this and their loyal sycophants can dig them out, won't be me.
We get it, your going to cut of your nose (or atleast someones nose) to spite the Dems. Its shocking to me that people still think that apathy protests are the way to get things done. Bernie realised it, you have to become strong enough to affect the establishment. And you dont have to be in power to do it, thats a great function of primaries. Problem is the voter base within parties is just as polarized as it is outside it.
Which to me is a clear indication that people on either extreme that are choosing to not vote for Hillary or voting Trump to "change" the Republican party arent interested in methodical change. They are whiny cry babies that dont understand compromising to get to a better position from which to exert greater influence. Something something instant gratification millennials.
The blow everything up in the hopes that it will all put itself back together the way "you" think it should is by far the stupidest rationale you can live through. And I have lived through one in albeit in a younger democracy (but at this point the US system is just as broken) And it doesn't end well, the vacuum that follows meltdowns is never filled with progress.
|
This "I hope the republicans take their head out of their asses and start acting more reasonable" sentiment doesn't make sense to me. It's the "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed moderate, who favors only one neoliberal, technocratic party with a view towards scientific corporate governance. It's no surprise that HW Bush is voting for Clinton; he is cut from the same apolitical cloth as her. The Bushes and the Clintons just vie for who gets to be the American CEO for the next 4 years. There is no reason to think that a "return to sanity" for the republicans would yield anything different.
If Trump represents the pure aestheticization of politics, he is, at least, harnessing something truly political. The insurrection of the tea party in its divers forms may simply be a deep political reaction to the unabated state of exception that was inaugurated on September 11th. When Clinton truly killed off politics with his Third Way in the 90s, it became apparent that the two parties were only trading off managerial responsibilities of American capital. True disagreements have been minor, akin to philosophical differences over management style or business strategy, rather than political in the true sense. That may also have been the last breath of constitutional liberalism, as Newt's House was really the last Congress to effectively wield power over the executive.
But with 9/11, the political elite were able to seize an opportunity. The war on terror led to a perennial state of exception, and sovereignty could rematerialize in the office of the President (i.e. "he who decides on the exception"). This did not necessarily mean, however, that politics would reinstate itself; in fact the sovereign power for the last 15 years has been in the political dark, operating mostly out of view. When Obama makes decisions on drone strikes, signs executive orders, negotiates the TPP, and sets administrative agency policies he is operating from the position of the sovereign, outside of the vast abstract, juridical framework that has been built up in our liberal constitutional order, and which was designed precisely to dissolve the unified sovereign into multiple components. But he makes those decisions as Bush did before him. They are cut from the same cloth, both acting as stewards of a unified American interest having won an apolitical popularity contest.
The tea party, Trumpism, and Berniebros should be seen as reactions to this hegemony of the economic sovereign. They signal a return to politics, or a return to "us vs. them". Rising inequalities and the growing pains of global capital in transition are creating serious stresses on the liberal democratic order. It has become quite apparent that not all Americans, let alone all people, share the same interests. To wish for a return to the good old times of Bush v. Clinton in the 90s where both parties could put up "respectable" candidates is to ignore the serious problems in our politico-economic structures. And they are only going to get worse.
|
On September 20 2016 14:12 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote: [quote]
I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election).
But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for.
[quote]
At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one. It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care. Democrats thinking they had my vote because they've got it before is the type of stupidity that would make someone like Trump consider me not voting for him a gift to him. Democrats can think whatever they want but someone still needs 270. And it might be Donald Trump. + Show Spoiler + If DWS didn't do such a terrible job in the DNC and Democrats hadn't spent decades taking advantage of people not participating then we wouldn't even need to worry about getting 270. Democrats got themselves into this and their loyal sycophants can dig them out, won't be me. We get it, your going to cut of your nose (or atleast someones nose) to spite the Dems. Its shocking to me that people still think that apathy protests are the way to get things done. Bernie realised it, you have to become strong enough to affect the establishment. And you dont have to be in power to do it, thats a great function of primaries. Problem is the voter base within parties is just as polarized as it is outside it. Which to me is a clear indication that people on either extreme that are choosing to not vote for Hillary or voting Trump to "change" the Republican party arent interested in methodical change. They are whiny cry babies that dont understand compromising to get to a better position from which to exert greater influence. Something something instant gratification millennials. The blow everything up in the hopes that it will all put itself back together the way "you" think it should is by far the stupidest rationale you can live through. And I have lived through one in albeit in a younger democracy (but at this point the US system is just as broken) And it doesn't end well, the vacuum that follows meltdowns is never filled with progress.
You really don't get it.
Hillary totally gave the left wing of her party the finger. Voting for her after that gives her and the Democrats carte blanche to move as far right as they want so long as they are a hair to the left of the Republican opposition.
|
Except Clinton has been one of the most liberal major politicians for the last 3 decades. But she was faking it or something the entire time.
|
On September 20 2016 14:28 ticklishmusic wrote: Except Clinton has been one of the most liberal major politicians for the last 3 decades. But she was faking it or something the entire time.
She and her supporters have a very different interpretation of her accomplishments than the people she "helped".
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 20 2016 14:25 IgnE wrote: This "I hope the republicans take their head out of their asses and start acting more reasonable" sentiment doesn't make sense to me. It's the "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed moderate, who favors only one neoliberal, technocratic party with a view towards scientific corporate governance. It's no surprise that HW Bush is voting for Clinton; he is cut from the same apolitical cloth as her. The Bushes and the Clintons just vie for who gets to be the American CEO for the next 4 years. There is no reason to think that a "return to sanity" for the republicans would yield anything different.
If Trump represents the pure aestheticization of politics, he is, at least, harnessing something truly political. The insurrection of the tea party in its divers forms may simply be a deep political reaction to the unabated state of exception that was inaugurated on September 11th. When Clinton truly killed off politics with his Third Way in the 90s, it became apparent that the two parties were only trading off managerial responsibilities of American capital. True disagreements have been minor, akin to philosophical differences over management style or business strategy, rather than political in the true sense. That may also have been the last breath of constitutional liberalism, as Newt's House was really the last Congress to effectively wield power over the executive.
But with 9/11, the political elite were able to seize an opportunity. The war on terror led to a perennial state of exception, and sovereignty could rematerialize in the office of the President (i.e. "he who decides on the exception"). This did not necessarily mean, however, that politics would reinstate itself; in fact the sovereign power for the last 15 years has been in the political dark, operating mostly out of view. When Obama makes decisions on drone strikes, signs executive orders, negotiates the TPP, and sets administrative agency policies he is operating from the position of the sovereign, outside of the vast abstract, juridical framework that has been built up in our liberal constitutional order, and which was designed precisely to dissolve the unified sovereign into multiple components. But he makes those decisions as Bush did before him. They are cut from the same cloth, both acting as stewards of a unified American interest having won an apolitical popularity contest.
The tea party, Trumpism, and Berniebros should be seen as reactions to this hegemony of the economic sovereign. They signal a return to politics, or a return to "us vs. them". Rising inequalities and the growing pains of global capital in transition are creating serious stresses on the liberal democratic order. It has become quite apparent that not all Americans, let alone all people, share the same interests. To wish for a return to the good old times of Bush v. Clinton in the 90s where both parties could put up "respectable" candidates is to ignore the serious problems in our politico-economic structures. And they are only going to get worse. Don't get me wrong, I don't actually see the Republicans choosing to oppose the Democrats in 2020 in a way that will look reasonable. I expect shitty results for a fair bit longer, with a further reign of the status quo that drags its feet for a decade. But as it is, I realize that decline is better than a substantial chance of anarchy, and that under the circumstances it is best to wait out the decline in reasonable politics until a better opportunity presents itself.
|
On September 20 2016 14:28 ticklishmusic wrote: Except Clinton has been one of the most liberal major politicians for the last 3 decades. But she was faking it or something the entire time.
McCain campaign says Senator Obama is most liberal senator. But turns out he was a neoliberal $hill who worked for Wall Street! Zero executive were executed, and some people in his cabinet have relevant experience in their fields. Some even had good jobs and made money! Next time we need to elect a true liberal, once who isn't just the most liberal senator according to several magazines, but all the magazines.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/18/fact-check-is-obama-the-most-liberal-us-senator/
|
You should deconstruct the word "neoliberal" into its component parts.
|
On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote: You can have W and Jeb as well.
I'll take them over any other current republican, and I don't like either of them one bit. I'm just glad Hillary is a right leaning democrat, I don't know what I would do if my choice was vs a left leaning democrat or any of the current republican choices.
I honestly don't get the beef that "clinton isn't liberal enough." What good would it do for America if she was more liberal? If bernie was president and somehow managed to make all college free, it would become much harder and more competitive just to get admitted, and the same people crying college is too expensive would cry discrimination because they wouldn't have the grades or test scores to get in over smarter people. College prices right now are ridiculously high, and I am currently in one, but I don't think making it free would be good at all. Should Hillary be more like bernie and threaten to close down wall street? Bernie himself showed he had less than zero clue about what the president can even do about that. Should she be trying to take away people's guns? Should she be closing down banks because they're big and evil? Should she be trying to tank our economy for the sake of liberalism? To me she is a fine democratic candidate who is realistic, my main complaint is that her FP isn't good, but compared to trump she is a master tactician.
Maybe I'm just a contrarian, or maybe most people in this thread are too far to the left/right. Because often when I see the trump supporters say anything I just face palm, even though I used to quite often agree with pre trump xdaunt and danglars, although I rarely post. And at the same time when I see some of the very liberal people here post, I facepalm just as hard. Perhaps the problem is me just wanting to disagree with everything.
|
On September 20 2016 14:25 IgnE wrote: This "I hope the republicans take their head out of their asses and start acting more reasonable" sentiment doesn't make sense to me. It's the "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed moderate, who favors only one neoliberal, technocratic party with a view towards scientific corporate governance. It's no surprise that HW Bush is voting for Clinton; he is cut from the same apolitical cloth as her. The Bushes and the Clintons just vie for who gets to be the American CEO for the next 4 years. There is no reason to think that a "return to sanity" for the republicans would yield anything different. Yes, the Bush endorsement was obvious and expected. I think only zlefin here subscribes to some scientific governance of any kind, and I do hope he continues to expound on this thread what the pragmatic fact-based rational stances are. Even beyond what the return to sanity would mean, I find the discussion farcical in what their idea of a GOP party would look like that could capture their vote. If you vote for Obama twice and couldn't imagine a McCain or Romney, or voted/would've voted for Kerry or Gore against George W Bush, I think you have found your home in the Democratic party and should make due with reforming their primary candidates or protest vote third party.
If Trump represents the pure aestheticization of politics, he is, at least, harnessing something truly political. The insurrection of the tea party in its divers forms may simply be a deep political reaction to the unabated state of exception that was inaugurated on September 11th. When Clinton truly killed off politics with his Third Way in the 90s, it became apparent that the two parties were only trading off managerial responsibilities of American capital. True disagreements have been minor, akin to philosophical differences over management style or business strategy, rather than political in the true sense. That may also have been the last breath of constitutional liberalism, as Newt's House was really the last Congress to effectively wield power over the executive. It's a little hard to follow your line of thought here ... the third way was deeply political and he found great political strategy maneuvering between Bush and Perot in a vibrant economy that would be safe platform to try out a Democrat. Obama is the more movement-progressive brand to '92 and '96 Clinton's politician brand. When Newt came in for Clinton, he stood out in front pushing the message that he had heard the voters and would adjust. The 2010 wave under Obama provoked no such change. Contract with America and the results in welfare reform and the resulting vetoes I think showed true political differences then as well.
But with 9/11, the political elite were able to seize an opportunity. The war on terror led to a perennial state of exception, and sovereignty could rematerialize in the office of the President (i.e. "he who decides on the exception"). This did not necessarily mean, however, that politics would reinstate itself; in fact the sovereign power for the last 15 years has been in the political dark, operating mostly out of view. When Obama makes decisions on drone strikes, signs executive orders, negotiates the TPP, and sets administrative agency policies he is operating from the position of the sovereign, outside of the vast abstract, juridical framework that has been built up in our liberal constitutional order, and which was designed precisely to dissolve the unified sovereign into multiple components. But he makes those decisions as Bush did before him. They are cut from the same cloth, both acting as stewards of a unified American interest having won an apolitical popularity contest. I thank you for penetrating the cloud still lingering on Obama's actions. He has been acting the position of the sovereign, both houses of Congress in some ways welcoming/ceding the power that previously was divided into separate stations. Bush did some (small) precursors like TARP funding and no child left behind that foreshadowed the coming years.
The tea party, Trumpism, and Berniebros should be seen as reactions to this hegemony of the economic sovereign. They signal a return to politics, or a return to "us vs. them". Rising inequalities and the growing pains of global capital in transition are creating serious stresses on the liberal democratic order. It has become quite apparent that not all Americans, let alone all people, share the same interests. To wish for a return to the good old times of Bush v. Clinton in the 90s where both parties could put up "respectable" candidates is to ignore the serious problems in our politico-economic structures. And they are only going to get worse. Trump indeed should be viewed in the framework of a retaliation against the sovereign. Trump's entire message and appeal is a political elected elite with outsize influence on domestic planning that overpromised and underdelivered for years. Verbal pandering only goes so far when election years signal big populist chants from your congressmen, and off-years it's all lobbyists and the Washington influence peddlers. I don't totally ascribe to your frame of politics; I rather think the 90s was simply politics under different social and political atmosphere and the 2010s are the same broad strokes adjusting to a radically changed climate but progressing ideas.
|
On September 20 2016 15:27 IgnE wrote: You should deconstruct the word "neoliberal" into its component parts.
The 70s left sucked, and they deserved their failures. I like the modern, neo-liberal Democrats. Sure, they don't inspire with promises of plans they can't pay for or implement (see, Free College, The Wall), but what they do propose can actually get done. Bernie losing saved the Democratic party from intellectual suicide (see, Corbyn, EDIT: see also, every time Jill Stein has answered a question in an interview).
EDIT2: more neo-liberal $hilling -- Bernie's plans were 18 trillion in the hole over 10 years, even after his crushing tax increases. http://www.urban.org/research/publication/analysis-senator-bernie-sanderss-tax-and-transfer-proposals
|
Give me Corbyn over the Blairites anyday, Give me Sanders over establishment dems like Clinton anyday.Integrity still means something.This election is about establishment vs anti establishment, if you think the dems core will turnout anywhere near 2008 or even 2012 levels you're smoking some strong stuff.
|
On September 20 2016 15:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 14:25 IgnE wrote: But with 9/11, the political elite were able to seize an opportunity. The war on terror led to a perennial state of exception, and sovereignty could rematerialize in the office of the President (i.e. "he who decides on the exception"). This did not necessarily mean, however, that politics would reinstate itself; in fact the sovereign power for the last 15 years has been in the political dark, operating mostly out of view. When Obama makes decisions on drone strikes, signs executive orders, negotiates the TPP, and sets administrative agency policies he is operating from the position of the sovereign, outside of the vast abstract, juridical framework that has been built up in our liberal constitutional order, and which was designed precisely to dissolve the unified sovereign into multiple components. But he makes those decisions as Bush did before him. They are cut from the same cloth, both acting as stewards of a unified American interest having won an apolitical popularity contest. I thank you for penetrating the cloud still lingering on Obama's actions. He has been acting the position of the sovereign, both houses of Congress in some ways welcoming/ceding the power that previously was divided into separate stations. Bush did some (small) precursors like TARP funding and no child left behind that foreshadowed the coming years. I think a large part of the seizing of sovereignty by the President comes because of how dysfunctional Congress has become. In many ways/cases the complete inaction from Congress has forced the Presidency to act on its own 'for the good of the country' to keep things going. Now you can argue that there is certainly a measure of overreaching and I agree that it happens and that it is bad for the balance of power but I think it is important to realize that Obama could never have seized this much power if Congress had been remotely competent and interested in doing their job of governing.
|
|
Election just keeps getting weirder....
|
lol, almost as weird as your posting of that woman's Facebook page.
|
It's the daughter of Robert F. Kennedy
|
well yeah, doesn't change how silly it is that news sites are authoring entire stories based on someone's Facebook post lol
|
On September 20 2016 21:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: It's the daughter of Robert F. Kennedy Oh. That makes it frontpage news indeed. You should also track down what all of Teddy Roosevelt's great-great-great-great-grandchildren are up to. That is also very very newsworthy.
|
|
|
|