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On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler +
At least Trump projects strength for the country.
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Keep fightin the good fight GH
I don't see eye-to-eye with you on much but I respect your adherence to your principles
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On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But...270.
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On September 20 2016 13:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
They're pissed he ruined the family tradition for Jeb
If there's one politician whose career got completely, brutally, and irrevocably murdered by Trump this election cycle, it's Jeb. Trump's attacks on Jeb were pretty damn savage and effective. I'd be mad too.
Whether or not anyone thinks that unpopular people standing by Hillary is a positive, I have no idea. Whoever voted for Hillary on the argument of "she's the most electable candidate and we absolutely need a Democrat in office" is a moron, as the further evolution of the campaign has shown.
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On September 20 2016 13:14 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At least Trump projects strength for the country.
If your depth of analysis doesn't extend beyond the TV screen that is true.
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On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270.
Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate.
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On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate.
Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In some sense I agree with you - you can't just encourage the party to keep selecting increasingly shitty candidate. If your opponent is consistently offering 20% of what you want, but the "lesser of two evils" is offering 40%, next time you get 21% and expect you to vote for them anyways. In that sense if might make perfect sense to vote for the "greater evil" on principle.
However, both parties are fucked right now. Either choice is a bad one, and all the "third option" choices are a throwaway vote. No third party has a chance to win because FPTP. Not voting is unproductive, because as P6 put it, not voting is not a protest but a vote for apathy. It's unfortunate that there is no means by which you can effect positive change this election by voting for president, but ultimately I think you have to cast a vote and one not cast for a main party is wasted. You had a good point when you said that democracy led to 2 candidates that no one likes being chosen. What an unfortunate event.
My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020.
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On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler +
That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one.
On September 20 2016 13:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In some sense I agree with you - you can't just encourage the party to keep selecting increasingly shitty candidate. If your opponent is consistently offering 20% of what you want, but the "lesser of two evils" is offering 40%, next time you get 21% and expect you to vote for them anyways. In that sense if might make perfect sense to vote for the "greater evil" on principle. However, both parties are fucked right now. Either choice is a bad one, and all the "third option" choices are a throwaway vote. No third party has a chance to win because FPTP. Not voting is unproductive, because as P6 put it, not voting is not a protest but a vote for apathy. It's unfortunate that there is no means by which you can effect positive change this election by voting for president, but ultimately I think you have to cast a vote and one not cast for a main party is wasted. You had a good point when you said that democracy led to 2 candidates that no one likes being chosen. What an unfortunate event. My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020.
What not swallowing Hillary's fecal flood and voting for someone else means, is that in future elections at least Democrats will know they can't just force feed us whatever they want and still expect people to show up and vote for them because they managed to have an even worse opponent.
Democrats voting for her out of fear of the alternative are enabling all the worst aspects of the party and will be responsible for it dragging out longer before the party hits rock bottom and is finally ready for an intervention.
If Democrats would have been like "Damn Hillary isn't what we thought, Bernie's not perfect but he's better than her when it comes to integrity and honesty". We'd already be on the road to recovery, instead Democrats want to score a fat hit for the addicts in November.
If/When Democrats are even more disconnected in 2020, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.
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On September 20 2016 13:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In some sense I agree with you - you can't just encourage the party to keep selecting increasingly shitty candidate. If your opponent is consistently offering 20% of what you want, but the "lesser of two evils" is offering 40%, next time you get 21% and expect you to vote for them anyways. In that sense if might make perfect sense to vote for the "greater evil" on principle. However, both parties are fucked right now. Either choice is a bad one, and all the "third option" choices are a throwaway vote. No third party has a chance to win because FPTP. Not voting is unproductive, because as P6 put it, not voting is not a protest but a vote for apathy. It's unfortunate that there is no means by which you can effect positive change this election by voting for president, but ultimately I think you have to cast a vote and one not cast for a main party is wasted. You had a good point when you said that democracy led to 2 candidates that no one likes being chosen. What an unfortunate event. My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020.
I wouldn't mind that scenario.
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On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one.
It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care.
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My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020
I think this is the most likely thing to happen at this point.
Honestly, they don't have to pull out all that far... HRC has demonstrated herself pretty worthless at the actual art of campaigning despite her considerable advantages.
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On September 20 2016 13:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In some sense I agree with you - you can't just encourage the party to keep selecting increasingly shitty candidate. If your opponent is consistently offering 20% of what you want, but the "lesser of two evils" is offering 40%, next time you get 21% and expect you to vote for them anyways. In that sense if might make perfect sense to vote for the "greater evil" on principle. However, both parties are fucked right now. Either choice is a bad one, and all the "third option" choices are a throwaway vote. No third party has a chance to win because FPTP. Not voting is unproductive, because as P6 put it, not voting is not a protest but a vote for apathy. It's unfortunate that there is no means by which you can effect positive change this election by voting for president, but ultimately I think you have to cast a vote and one not cast for a main party is wasted. You had a good point when you said that democracy led to 2 candidates that no one likes being chosen. What an unfortunate event. My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020.
You cannot ethically separate the consequences of your vote from the ideology of your vote. Anyone who believes that they can is either sufficiently privileged to not have to directly see the effects of their vote or sufficiently deluded to ignore the realities of their choice.
Yes, our system is absolutely awful and there's no good choice for those that don't like the major candidates. Hell, there's no good choice between any of the candidates, since Stein's platform includes everything that is bad about the Left and Johnson's a libertarian, which is the embodiment of naive white male privilege. I know I would sure as hell vote for anyone else besides these two main candidates, but unfortunately we don't have many options at this point.
You simply can't affect massive change (e.g. our electoral system) by just electing a president; it needs to be done both at the local level and at the Congressional level. Unfortunately, "protest voting" or just not voting aren't viable options, and are both equally ethically culpable. Voting for a government position doesn't occur in an ethical vacuum; your vote doesn't just belong to you. When you vote, you are exercising your right to appoint an individual with the legal authority to coerce your fellow citizens into doing or not doing something. That power comes with an ethical responsibility that you need to take ownership of.
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On September 20 2016 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one. It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care.
Democrats thinking they had my vote because they've got it before is the type of stupidity that would make someone like Trump consider me not voting for him a gift to him.
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On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate.
Both of the third party candidates are turds, too, even for those who like their platforms. Frankly, the only real viable "change" candidate is Trump. Electing him will blow up the established political order. This isn't to say that something better will replace the current order, but at least we'll get a re-roll.
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On September 20 2016 13:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one. It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care. Democrats thinking they had my vote because they've got it before is the type of stupidity that would make someone like Trump consider me not voting for him a gift to him.
Democrats can think whatever they want but someone still needs 270. And it might be Donald Trump.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey was informed in real time about the plot to wreak revenge on a small-town mayor who refused to back him for re-election by creating traffic chaos over the George Washington bridge, federal prosecutors said on Monday.
The stunning claim was made during opening remarks by the prosecution at the trial of two of Christie’s once close associates in Newark. Bridget Kelly, the governor’s then deputy chief of staff, and Bill Baroni, former deputy head of the Port Authority which controlled the bridge, are charged with instigating lane closures in September 2013 as an act of political spite against Mark Sokolich, the mayor of Fort Lee that sits in the shadow of the GWB.
Though Christie himself has not been charged, how much he knew about any nefarious intent behind the gridlock is the elephant in the courtroom. Delivering his opening statement, assistant US attorney Vikas Khanna referred to a 9/11 memorial ceremony held on the third day of the traffic crisis that was attended by Christie and several of his inner team.
There has long been speculation about what was said at that event after photos of Christie emerged in the company of Baroni and Kelly. Also present at the ceremony was David Wildstein, another top Port Authority executive who has already pleaded guilty to conspiracy and is now the star witness for the prosecution.
Khanna told the jury they would hear testimony from Wildstein in which he would describe the brief conversation that took place there. “During those precious few minutes, they bragged about the fact that there were traffic problems in Fort Lee and that Mayor Sokolich was not getting his calls returned.”
Christie has consistently denied he knew at the time that his associates had colluded in creating traffic hell for Fort Lee. But the suggestion that he was in the loop has followed him around like a bad smell for the past three years, helping to destroy his bid for the Republican presidential nomination, which collapsed in February.
Since flaming out of the race for the White House, Christie has put his eggs into the Donald Trump basket. The claims emanating from the so-called Bridgegate trial are awkwardly timed given that Christie is acting as Trump’s surrogate on law and order.
Both Kelly, 44, and Baroni, also 44, have pleaded not guilty to all charges. Their own defense could also prove uncomfortable for Christie as they have indicated they will call on witnesses who are well versed in the inner workings of the governor’s administration.
Source
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On September 20 2016 13:33 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:29 LegalLord wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
You can have W and Jeb as well. Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway). Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In some sense I agree with you - you can't just encourage the party to keep selecting increasingly shitty candidate. If your opponent is consistently offering 20% of what you want, but the "lesser of two evils" is offering 40%, next time you get 21% and expect you to vote for them anyways. In that sense if might make perfect sense to vote for the "greater evil" on principle. However, both parties are fucked right now. Either choice is a bad one, and all the "third option" choices are a throwaway vote. No third party has a chance to win because FPTP. Not voting is unproductive, because as P6 put it, not voting is not a protest but a vote for apathy. It's unfortunate that there is no means by which you can effect positive change this election by voting for president, but ultimately I think you have to cast a vote and one not cast for a main party is wasted. You had a good point when you said that democracy led to 2 candidates that no one likes being chosen. What an unfortunate event. My hope is that Hillary wins, the Republican Party pulls its head out of its ass, and provides a much more moderate platform with an electable candidate who will easily steamroll Hillary in 2020. I wouldn't mind that scenario.
As a conservative, as soon as Rubio had to drop out I've basically been in this boat as well. Let Hillary win the presidency while keeping Republican control of congress, then use those four years to build up to something like a Paul Ryan 2020 run and get back to the roots with what the party should actually be standing for. So far in the early senate races (In Arizona and Florida) the more mainstream establishment conservatives(McCain and Rubio) beat out the harder Trump supporter candidates, but I think McCain and Rubio were fairly heavy favorites anyway so it's hard to judge anything off those. It'll be interesting to see what the Trump effect actually ends up doing to the overall races though come November. I think if Hillary wins the presidency, Republican leadership in congress will need to grow a spine, been pushed over by Obama one too many times over the past 8 years.
Tough to swallow the supreme court pill though. Next president will almost surely have at least 2 supreme court selections. With how political the supreme court has become in recent years, it's definitely a more significant than usual issue this time around. Trumps supreme court nominations might not be any better though so that argument never really held much water.
Edit: Dropped in here originally to say I'm looking forward to the debate next week. Hopefully Hillary's health issues don't force her to withdraw or anything.
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On September 20 2016 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 13:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:28 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:19 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2016 13:05 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway).
Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. Not as funny as a black dude half hope Trump will win just because you can't stand Hiliary. But you are in liberal land, so I'm sure it will work out for you. I fully hope they both lose, but I am still tethered to reality, so I recognize that's not happening (bar some catastrophe like they are both indicted before the election). But I'll be damned if I vote for either of those lying dirt bags just because one is less of a lying dirt bag than the other. That's just stupid and a sure fire way to make sure we never have anyone worth voting for. On September 20 2016 13:13 Doodsmack wrote:On September 20 2016 13:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Even as bad as Trump is (I think bad, but not as bad as Hillary and her supporters want us to think) I don't think it's good to be the preferred candidate of HW, Kissinger, and Wolfowitz (if you're a liberal anyway).
Plansix's argument about not wanting his brother to get shipped off to some warzone being a reason he's supporting Clinton get's funnier and funnier by the day. At some point you gotta accept that it's a choice between Trump or Hillary. Donald Trump that is, candidate for US president. + Show Spoiler + At some point people have to realize thinking like that is what makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. But...270. Picking between Trump and Clinton is a lose lose proposition. I won't do it. People can get mad at the millions of people who don't even participate if they want to deflect responsibility off of themselves and their candidate. Donald Trump, candidate for US president, gladly accepts your gift. + Show Spoiler + That is such a tired and silly argument, voting for not Trump is not a vote for Trump no matter how hard Hillary supporters try to spin it into one. It's not a vote for him but it is a gift to him given that you're in the Democrat voter headcount. Unless you're in a solid red or blue state, then I don't care. Democrats thinking they had my vote because they've got it before is the type of stupidity that would make someone like Trump consider me not voting for him a gift to him. Democrats can think whatever they want but someone still needs 270. And it might be Donald Trump. + Show Spoiler +
If DWS didn't do such a terrible job in the DNC and Democrats hadn't spent decades taking advantage of people not participating then we wouldn't even need to worry about getting 270. Democrats got themselves into this and their loyal sycophants can dig them out, won't be me.
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Hopefully if Trump is elected the liberal SC justices will remain long enough to hear the challenges to his immigration plans.
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![[image loading]](http://www.alan.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/apprentice-2014_0511_nbcuxd_upfront2014_celebrityapprentice_keyartimagehoriz_v1_1920x1080_fl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://cdn2.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale_crop_768_433/2013/02/celebrity_apprentice_group_shot_a_l.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/donald-trump-hat.jpg?quality=70&strip=all&w=720&h=480&crop=1)
EPT
