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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 30 2013 15:54 Falling wrote:
What was he supposed to compromise on? Beyond 'don't do ACA at all.' Maybe my memory is foggy, but I don't recall many strong arguments being made for tinkering with ACA or even making larger changes to it. I mostly remember the battleground being fought over the very existence of the bill. It's hard to compromise on a bill if the compromise is supposed to be 'throw the entire thing out.' More like capitulation. But again my memory might be faulty. Just speculating but eliminating the employer mandate would alleviate a lot of the fears that Obamacare will kill jobs. The individual mandate could also be reworked so that it's no longer 'a tax for not doing something'. I don't know if those changes would make the GOP fine with Obamacare, but those two mandates seem to be the things complained about the most. How can you have a universal healthcare without an individual mandate? The fact that everyone has to pay into health care to spread costs is the very foundation of universal healthcare.
Well to start does Obamacare even count as universal healthcare? We're expecting something like 30 million to still not have insurance. More to your question, I think there's more than one way to skin that cat.
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On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job."
Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all?
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On September 30 2013 22:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:On September 30 2013 22:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 30 2013 15:54 Falling wrote:
What was he supposed to compromise on? Beyond 'don't do ACA at all.' Maybe my memory is foggy, but I don't recall many strong arguments being made for tinkering with ACA or even making larger changes to it. I mostly remember the battleground being fought over the very existence of the bill. It's hard to compromise on a bill if the compromise is supposed to be 'throw the entire thing out.' More like capitulation. But again my memory might be faulty. Just speculating but eliminating the employer mandate would alleviate a lot of the fears that Obamacare will kill jobs. The individual mandate could also be reworked so that it's no longer 'a tax for not doing something'. I don't know if those changes would make the GOP fine with Obamacare, but those two mandates seem to be the things complained about the most. How can you have a universal healthcare without an individual mandate? The fact that everyone has to pay into health care to spread costs is the very foundation of universal healthcare. Well to start does Obamacare even count as universal healthcare? We're expecting something like 30 million to still not have insurance. More to your question, I think there's more than one way to skin that cat.
I could well be understanding the issue wrongly mind you but isnt the deal that everyone has to buy health insurance or pay a fine?
Now ofc its possible that 30 million people chose to pay the fine instead but it still has the same overall effect. That fine is used to pay for uninsured emergency healthcare thus spreading the cost. If they want to shoot themselves in the foot and be left ruined when they do contract a serious illness its not my problem.
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On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all?
Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos.
I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion?
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On September 30 2013 22:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:On September 30 2013 22:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 30 2013 15:54 Falling wrote:
What was he supposed to compromise on? Beyond 'don't do ACA at all.' Maybe my memory is foggy, but I don't recall many strong arguments being made for tinkering with ACA or even making larger changes to it. I mostly remember the battleground being fought over the very existence of the bill. It's hard to compromise on a bill if the compromise is supposed to be 'throw the entire thing out.' More like capitulation. But again my memory might be faulty. Just speculating but eliminating the employer mandate would alleviate a lot of the fears that Obamacare will kill jobs. The individual mandate could also be reworked so that it's no longer 'a tax for not doing something'. I don't know if those changes would make the GOP fine with Obamacare, but those two mandates seem to be the things complained about the most. How can you have a universal healthcare without an individual mandate? The fact that everyone has to pay into health care to spread costs is the very foundation of universal healthcare. Well to start does Obamacare even count as universal healthcare? We're expecting something like 30 million to still not have insurance. More to your question, I think there's more than one way to skin that cat. I could well be understanding the issue wrongly mind you but isnt the deal that everyone has to buy health insurance or pay a fine? Now ofc its possible that 30 million people chose to pay the fine instead but it still has the same overall effect. That fine is used to pay for uninsured emergency healthcare thus spreading the cost. If they want to shoot themselves in the foot and be left ruined when they do contract a serious illness its not my problem.
Yeah, but the fine is extremely small so it won't cover many costs or encourage many to buy insurance.
Many costs are already covered via hospital reimbursements for patients that can't pay their bills. So do we already have universal healthcare?
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There should be more incentives on people to live more healthy, thats one of the best ways to reduce healthcare cost and its consistant with the american capitalist phylosophy
Overweight? you pay more for your insurance.
Smoker? you pay more for your insurance.
Doing risky sports in your free time? you pay more for your insurance.
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On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion?
If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there is an Idea you just don´t agree with it.
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On September 30 2013 23:02 Rassy wrote:
There should be more incentives on people to live more healthy, thats one of the best ways to reduce healthcare cost and its consistant with the american capitalist phylosophy
Overweight? you pay more for your insurance.
Smoker? you pay more for your insurance.
Doing risky sports in your free time? you pay more for your insurance.
Yeah, and that stuff has been a growing trend for a while now. Burgers are really tasty though, so progress has been slow 
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On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it.
Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt.
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On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt.
You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless.
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On September 30 2013 23:02 Rassy wrote:
There should be more incentives on people to live more healthy, thats one of the best ways to reduce healthcare cost and its consistant with the american capitalist phylosophy
Overweight? you pay more for your insurance.
Smoker? you pay more for your insurance.
Doing risky sports in your free time? you pay more for your insurance.
Only if subliminal marketing and crony capitalism becomes more responsible as well. 
There is already plenty of evidence that a single payer universal system that promotes preventative medicine would reduce costs substantially.
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On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless.
What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right."
That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me.
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On September 30 2013 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless. What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right." That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me.
Here you go http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm
Reducing government involvement in healthcare is of course an idea on healthcare just not one that you like. I
should also point out that I personally haven´t advocated any side in the debate I only pointed out that you were mischaracterizing your opponents and making objectively false statements, throwing a tantrum want change that.
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On October 01 2013 00:12 narkissos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless. What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right." That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me. Here you go http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm Reducing government involvement in healthcare is of course an idea on healthcare just not one that you like. I should also point out that I personally haven´t advocated any side in the debate I only pointed out that you were mischaracterizing your opponents and making objectively false statements, throwing a tantrum want change that.
So other than purchase across state lines, that was just a bunch of magic asterisks and "free market fixes everything! Look ma no hands!" Literally nothing to actually fix the problem.
Oh and a pro-life line for good measure. lol
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On October 01 2013 00:26 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 00:12 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless. What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right." That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me. Here you go http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm Reducing government involvement in healthcare is of course an idea on healthcare just not one that you like. I should also point out that I personally haven´t advocated any side in the debate I only pointed out that you were mischaracterizing your opponents and making objectively false statements, throwing a tantrum want change that. So other than purchase across state lines, that was just a bunch of magic asterisks and "free market fixes everything! Look ma no hands!" Literally nothing to actually fix the problem. Oh and a pro-life line for good measure. lol
It's a good thing that democrat politicians don't have this attitude, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get republicans to the table to negotiate with them on important legislation.
Oh, wait....
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On October 01 2013 00:26 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 00:12 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless. What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right." That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me. Here you go http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm Reducing government involvement in healthcare is of course an idea on healthcare just not one that you like. I should also point out that I personally haven´t advocated any side in the debate I only pointed out that you were mischaracterizing your opponents and making objectively false statements, throwing a tantrum want change that. So other than purchase across state lines, that was just a bunch of magic asterisks and "free market fixes everything! Look ma no hands!" Literally nothing to actually fix the problem. Oh and a pro-life line for good measure. lol
Also tax breaks and legal changes to make insurance a lot cheaper. Looks like it would make the tax code more progressive too.
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On October 01 2013 00:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 00:26 DoubleReed wrote:On October 01 2013 00:12 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:49 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:41 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 23:14 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 23:02 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:50 DoubleReed wrote:On September 30 2013 22:44 narkissos wrote:On September 30 2013 22:38 DoubleReed wrote:
The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare, because any ideas they did have like the individual mandate has become Democrat. Because the democrats actually are trying to govern. Ted Cruz's answer to how a person with pre-existing conditions to get reasonably priced healthcare was essentially "get a better job." Perhaps they don´t think healthcare is a right? Perhaps they don´t think the government should bee involved in healthcare at all? Sounds about right to me. Bunch of psychos. I'm sorry do you expect me to think that's a reasonable opinion? If you find something reasonable or not tends to bee highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that for some of them at least there are an Idea you just don´t agree with it. Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people. This is very useful information that I have never considered before. I am in your debt. You were making a sham argument set up to be easily refuted "The Republicans have zero ideas on healthcare" popularly known as a strawman. When I pointed this out you answered with yet another strawman "Thank you for pointing out that I disagree with people" I pointed out that you made false statements. These kind of debate techniques might win you a point in the short term but make the debate meaningless. What false statements? You said they shouldn't do anything. As in, when millions of Americans are without healthcare, their idea is "healthcare is not a right." That's not a solution to the problem, that's a lack of solution. So when I said Republicans have zero ideas, you agreed with me. Here you go http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm Reducing government involvement in healthcare is of course an idea on healthcare just not one that you like. I should also point out that I personally haven´t advocated any side in the debate I only pointed out that you were mischaracterizing your opponents and making objectively false statements, throwing a tantrum want change that. So other than purchase across state lines, that was just a bunch of magic asterisks and "free market fixes everything! Look ma no hands!" Literally nothing to actually fix the problem. Oh and a pro-life line for good measure. lol It's a good thing that democrat politicians don't have this attitude, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get republicans to the table to negotiate with them on important legislation. Oh, wait....
Actually this is a pretty good representation here, right? Democrats want solutions, Republicans just stammer about free markets. And so we're at an impasse and can't get anything accomplished. Politics revealed.
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WASHINGTON -- North Carolina Republicans passed a restrictive voting law earlier this year "with the purpose of denying or abridging the right of African Americans to vote on account of their race or color," the Justice Department charged in a lawsuit filed Monday.
The lawsuit, filed by attorneys within DOJ's Civil Rights Division and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Middle District of North Carolina, was announced by Attorney General Eric Holder at Justice Department headquarters on Monday. Federal officials argued that, based on North Carolina's own data, four changes to the law -- eliminating several days of early voting, eliminating same-day voter registration, prohibiting the counting of certain provisional ballots and requiring specific forms of photo identification -- would have a discriminatory impact on minority voters.
"By restricting access and ease of voter participation, this new law would shrink, rather than expand, access to the franchise," Holder said at the press conference. "And it is especially troubling that the law would significantly narrow the early voting window that enabled hundreds of thousands of North Carolinians, including a disproportionally large numbers of minority voters, to cast ballots during the last election cycle."
The lawsuit specifically mentions that the bill "does not provide an exception to the photo identification requirement for voters who face barriers to obtaining the State's specific, approved forms of photo identification due to poverty, lack of transportation, or other reasons."
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EPT
