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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
August 12 2016 14:34 GMT
#94461
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.
Question.?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18822 Posts
August 12 2016 14:36 GMT
#94462
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.

That's nonsense; I personally know at least a dozen people who rely on federal programs that Trump has either directly or indirectly promised to cut.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 12 2016 14:37 GMT
#94463
You have to be remarkably blind if up until now, you were to think that Hillary is clean and that all of the myriad accusations of corruption and shitty dealings are wrong just because the Republicans pursued a few overblown smear campaigns against her.

I only wish this had come out a year ago when it could have actually influenced people towards a better choice. Instead we get "oh well I suck but Trump so vote for me anyways."
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-12 14:40:50
August 12 2016 14:39 GMT
#94464
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.


I have no indication that Trump is less corrupt, given his various admissions and history. He donated to Hillary, keep in mind. That wasn't for the sake of his South Florida golf course.

Also your second sentence is absurd.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
August 12 2016 14:44 GMT
#94465
On August 12 2016 23:39 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.


I have no indication that Trump is less corrupt, given his various admissions and history. He donated to Hillary, keep in mind. That wasn't for the sake of his South Florida golf course.

Also your second sentence is absurd.


I don't mean that in the sense that president has no power, but that the gridlock will slow everything down and mitigate a lot of the crazy expectations the base on both sides have.

Question.?
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
August 12 2016 14:46 GMT
#94466
On August 12 2016 23:36 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.

That's nonsense; I personally know at least a dozen people who rely on federal programs that Trump has either directly or indirectly promised to cut.


Could you elaborate which programs? Just curious
Question.?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 12 2016 14:48 GMT
#94467
On August 12 2016 22:23 nothingmuch wrote:
Hats off to all you guys trying to/ engaging with Trump supporters. I just can't even imagine how to begin. I see this man, I hear what he says and how he behaves, and in my mind there's just not enough fantasy to even remotely fathom a world in which anybody can see anything but a conniving, cowardly clown with an ego the size of the planet. What could possibly be going on in the heads of those people cheering for him?

The Bell Curve- the bane of Democracy.

You'd better hope they can't hear you. It's exactly the kind of attitude that will reflexively cause them to fire back ... if that's all you got, I'm never going to engage with you guys! Both candidates have VERY deep unfavorables it's like a game of who's the less shitty smelling septic tank. And when a voter comes out with the wrong guy, you're not even going to engage? And this is conservatively a third to a little under half the country? Well, they'll keep sending representatives to Congress with the expectation that they'll oppose steadfastly the kind of ideas offered by dismissive partisans of the other party.

On August 12 2016 23:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think blanket statements of the type 'everyone who votes for him is stupid or selfish' are wrong, baseless and harmful to the political discourse. Equating political preference with intelligence doesn't really hold up either (you can make that case in regards to swallowing a populist message or not, but not for the conservative/liberal dichotomy. And while trump is populist, many of his supporters seem to be his supporters because he is the non-liberal alternative with a chance at winning).

I also understand why it's easy to make these statements and draw these conclusions, but I've seen enough people whose intelligence clearly equal or surpass my own whose political opinions greatly differ from my own to draw the conclusion that intelligence and political position is hardly related. And I think the selfishness-selflessness- separation is also a very difficult distinction to make - my own perceived selflessness normally originates from some degree of selfishness, not in the ayn randian greed is good sense, but in the sense that being selfless makes me feel good about myself - but I can only be selfless as long as it is not self-defeating. People from less privileged positions cannot be equally selfless without it being more self-defeating.

If only more people can come to an understanding of what it means to share a country with people of radically different views. I also agree that too much is made of voting for your own self interest from people that presume to carry higher morals.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 12 2016 14:49 GMT
#94468
We have had this discussion before and you are completely discounting the powers of the executive branch, which controls almost every law enforcement and regulation agency. And controls the appointment of the heads of those agencies. Trump has promised to purge off of Obama’s appointments, which includes those agencies.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18822 Posts
August 12 2016 14:49 GMT
#94469
On August 12 2016 23:46 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:36 farvacola wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.

That's nonsense; I personally know at least a dozen people who rely on federal programs that Trump has either directly or indirectly promised to cut.


Could you elaborate which programs? Just curious

Food assistance, SSA DIB, foster care assistance, Obamacare, and the list goes on. And for those who will point to random quotes where Trump may have said that he won't cut those programs, his tax plan is so regressive that it'd be impossible to float without massive cuts to pre-existing, non-military programs.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21600 Posts
August 12 2016 14:53 GMT
#94470
On August 12 2016 23:37 LegalLord wrote:
You have to be remarkably blind if up until now, you were to think that Hillary is clean and that all of the myriad accusations of corruption and shitty dealings are wrong just because the Republicans pursued a few overblown smear campaigns against her.

I only wish this had come out a year ago when it could have actually influenced people towards a better choice. Instead we get "oh well I suck but Trump so vote for me anyways."

I don't think you can find anyone who would come out more clean after the scrutiny and witch hunting that Hillary has been subjected to. And yes they were baseless witch hunts for the most part.

Not to say that Hillary is clean. No successful politician in the US is. The entire system is full of corruption and bribery, both legal and illegal.

So yes, Hillary is 'corrupt' but so is anyone else who could replace her. Strap Bernie under a microscope for a few decades and you will be amazed with what you can find. Or not find and pretend regardless.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
nothingmuch
Profile Joined March 2015
448 Posts
August 12 2016 15:01 GMT
#94471
On August 12 2016 23:48 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 22:23 nothingmuch wrote:
Hats off to all you guys trying to/ engaging with Trump supporters. I just can't even imagine how to begin. I see this man, I hear what he says and how he behaves, and in my mind there's just not enough fantasy to even remotely fathom a world in which anybody can see anything but a conniving, cowardly clown with an ego the size of the planet. What could possibly be going on in the heads of those people cheering for him?

The Bell Curve- the bane of Democracy.

You'd better hope they can't hear you. It's exactly the kind of attitude that will reflexively cause them to fire back ... if that's all you got, I'm never going to engage with you guys! Both candidates have VERY deep unfavorables it's like a game of who's the less shitty smelling septic tank. And when a voter comes out with the wrong guy, you're not even going to engage? And this is conservatively a third to a little under half the country? Well, they'll keep sending representatives to Congress with the expectation that they'll oppose steadfastly the kind of ideas offered by dismissive partisans of the other party.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think blanket statements of the type 'everyone who votes for him is stupid or selfish' are wrong, baseless and harmful to the political discourse. Equating political preference with intelligence doesn't really hold up either (you can make that case in regards to swallowing a populist message or not, but not for the conservative/liberal dichotomy. And while trump is populist, many of his supporters seem to be his supporters because he is the non-liberal alternative with a chance at winning).

I also understand why it's easy to make these statements and draw these conclusions, but I've seen enough people whose intelligence clearly equal or surpass my own whose political opinions greatly differ from my own to draw the conclusion that intelligence and political position is hardly related. And I think the selfishness-selflessness- separation is also a very difficult distinction to make - my own perceived selflessness normally originates from some degree of selfishness, not in the ayn randian greed is good sense, but in the sense that being selfless makes me feel good about myself - but I can only be selfless as long as it is not self-defeating. People from less privileged positions cannot be equally selfless without it being more self-defeating.

If only more people can come to an understanding of what it means to share a country with people of radically different views. I also agree that too much is made of voting for your own self interest from people that presume to carry higher morals.


I'm convinced that for the majority of that "third" (let's just call it that and not get into numbers) there's nothing they could hear me say that would change their mind in one way or the other. I think their opinion changes for the better when they pass on (of old age) and that educating the electorate of tomorrow is the only way to get better decisions made one day.
Not sure if it matters but I'm not eligible to vote in your elections, but while Bush was fun to laugh at, Trump is so dangerous that it's not funny anymore even from thousands of miles away.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28628 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-12 15:16:33
August 12 2016 15:04 GMT
#94472
Edit: Disregard this tweet. It's bs.

I also think this guy



should be fired immediately. I know this comment is from 2010 and that he wasn't her strategist at the time being, but if we're demonizing Trump for hiring incompetent and trigger happy people then she should be held up to that standard as well.

Edit: oh damnit. Looks like I kinda fell for the whole, 'share before you've fully educated yourself' ploy - I can't actually see any indication of him being a Hillary Strategist beyond this being claimed in the tweet. Snopes couldn't either.

Moderator
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-12 15:06:29
August 12 2016 15:05 GMT
#94473
On August 12 2016 23:44 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:39 Doodsmack wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:34 biology]major wrote:
On August 12 2016 23:29 Doodsmack wrote:
To be fair, as a Hillary supporter, the recent emails do prove that she sold access to State through CF. And that's very bad corruption. But Trump is so fundamentally flawed as to be a non-candidate.


Don't reward corruption then. Regardless of who is president we will carry about our lives in the same way we always have.


I have no indication that Trump is less corrupt, given his various admissions and history. He donated to Hillary, keep in mind. That wasn't for the sake of his South Florida golf course.

Also your second sentence is absurd.


I don't mean that in the sense that president has no power, but that the gridlock will slow everything down and mitigate a lot of the crazy expectations the base on both sides have.



I don't think "these candidates can't do what they say they want to do" is a viable argument to mitigate Trump's fundamental flaws as leader of the free world.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 12 2016 15:08 GMT
#94474
On August 12 2016 23:53 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2016 23:37 LegalLord wrote:
You have to be remarkably blind if up until now, you were to think that Hillary is clean and that all of the myriad accusations of corruption and shitty dealings are wrong just because the Republicans pursued a few overblown smear campaigns against her.

I only wish this had come out a year ago when it could have actually influenced people towards a better choice. Instead we get "oh well I suck but Trump so vote for me anyways."

I don't think you can find anyone who would come out more clean after the scrutiny and witch hunting that Hillary has been subjected to. And yes they were baseless witch hunts for the most part.

Not to say that Hillary is clean. No successful politician in the US is. The entire system is full of corruption and bribery, both legal and illegal.

So yes, Hillary is 'corrupt' but so is anyone else who could replace her. Strap Bernie under a microscope for a few decades and you will be amazed with what you can find. Or not find and pretend regardless.

Oh and that's the other dismissive Hillary line: "she's no more corrupt than anyone else." Also BS.

She gets so many accusations of wrongdoing because there is plenty of wrongdoing to go around. No other politician with her tenure in office has quite as many, simply because they haven't done as much wrong. Sure, the Republicans pursue witch hunts on pet issues that they are less culpable for than the actual fuckups of Hillary. But many accusations against her are genuine, if overblown, and people dismissing those are generally willfully ignorant and are just trying to convince themselves that the candidate who is best for themselves is better than she actually is.

Oh and we did get a good look at what Sanders was involved in that was suspicious. Praising a few South American dictators, had a child out of wedlock, has a wife who was the president of a college that went bankrupt and closed, lots of pet pork projects. Most found it to be severely lacking compared to Hillary's record of wrongdoing. And O'Malley probably had a fair few things you could criticize him for but he is a popular Democrat with a much higher approval rating than Hillary these days.

She's a shitty candidate. She has a lower approval rating than any other candidate except Trump for a damn good reason.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 12 2016 15:09 GMT
#94475
Privately operated government prisons, which mostly detain migrants convicted of immigration offenses, are drastically more unsafe and punitive than other prisons in the federal system, a stinging investigation by the US Department of Justice’s inspector general has found.

Inmates at these 14 contract prisons, the only centers in the federal prison system that are privately operated, were nine times more likely to be placed on lockdown than inmates at other federal prisons and were frequently subjected to arbitrary solitary confinement. In two of the three contract prisons investigators routinely visited, new inmates were automatically placed in solitary confinement as a way of combating overcrowding, rather than for disciplinary issues.

The review also found that contract prison inmates were more likely to complain about medical care, treatment by prison staff and about the quality of food.

Contract prisons almost exclusively incarcerate low-risk inmates convicted of immigration offenses. These facilities house around 22,000 individuals, mostly deemed “low risk”, at an annual cost of $600m. They are operated by three private companies: Geo Group, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), and Management and Training Corporation (MTC).

Investigators determined that these facilities were also more dangerous than others in the federal system. For example, the report found that inmate on inmate assaults were 28% higher in contract prisons, and confiscation of contraband mobile phones occurred eight times more.

At the Eden detention center in Texas, operated by CCA and one of the three institutions routinely visited by investigators, the inspector general found that staff failed to discipline inmates in over 50% of disciplinary incidents.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-12 15:12:00
August 12 2016 15:11 GMT
#94476
On August 13 2016 00:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I also think this guy

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763380671796678656

should be fired immediately. I know this comment is from 2010 and that he wasn't her strategist at the time being, but if we're demonizing Trump for hiring incompetent and trigger happy people then she should be held up to that standard as well.

Edit: oh damnit. Looks like I kinda fell for the whole, 'share before you've fully educated yourself' ploy - I can't actually see any indication of him being a Hillary Strategist beyond this being claimed in the tweet. Snopes couldn't either.


Keep this in mind. Wikileaks is pushing false information by saying he is a Clinton strategist. Wikileaks has shown, time and time again, that it has a defined agenda and that it is not some kinda beacon of knowledge. They do not just exist to let the masses know the truth or some similar bullshit. They are reckless, irresponsible, and not entirely reliable. See how easy it is for some Clinton attack to seem legitimate, only to turn out a key part of the story is 100% false?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 12 2016 15:12 GMT
#94477
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28628 Posts
August 12 2016 15:13 GMT
#94478
Yeah, that was actually eye-opening to me. Wife linked me that, I found it absolutely outrageous, linked it here, started investigating more, noticed that wtf, I can't find any mention of this guy being a Hillary strategist anywhere. But then I had already shared it - possibly influencing more minds into buying it. I suck!!
Moderator
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
August 12 2016 15:14 GMT
#94479
Legal -> I'd say she's somewhat more corrupt than average, but it's hard to tell reliably.
The basic problem to me is: you can't use: "where there's smoke there's fire" to measure corruption well when someone has been throwing smoke grenades at them. The large number of unjustified accusations make it harder to identify the legitimate ones unless you look really closely; and opens up a lot of room to magnify the effects of minor biases.

And the eternal question of how much looks suspicious when you look really close at something; I don't have a good comparison base of people who've been look at nearly this close. Medicine has the same problem.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15561 Posts
August 12 2016 15:21 GMT
#94480
On August 13 2016 00:14 zlefin wrote:
Legal -> I'd say she's somewhat more corrupt than average, but it's hard to tell reliably.
The basic problem to me is: you can't use: "where there's smoke there's fire" to measure corruption well when someone has been throwing smoke grenades at them. The large number of unjustified accusations make it harder to identify the legitimate ones unless you look really closely; and opens up a lot of room to magnify the effects of minor biases.

And the eternal question of how much looks suspicious when you look really close at something; I don't have a good comparison base of people who've been look at nearly this close. Medicine has the same problem.


I also think that Clinton is just insanely powerful and well connected. She's got connections just about everywhere because she's been everywhere and done an insane amount of stuff. Whether you see her resume as good or bad, its a full one. She stays busy. Because of that, it is easy to make up shit like the Wikileaks tweet shown above. We know A is true...and we know B is true...and if we assume C...she's corrupt. Well, maybe you don't know C. Or in most cases, we can actually show C to be false.
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