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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
WASHINGTON ― The fallout over Donald Trump’s attacks on the family of a Muslim American soldier continued Monday as military vets in Congress urged Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) to drop his endorsement for his party’s presidential nominee.
“As veterans who previously served on active duty, we are horrified by Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump’s slander of parents whose son died serving our country,” reads a letter to Ryan, signed by Democratic Reps. Ted Lieu (Calif.), Ruben Gallego (Ariz.) and Seth Moulton (Mass.).
“Your continued endorsement of Mr. Trump’s hateful, bigoted and sexist vision threatens the integrity of the House of Representatives in which we serve,” they wrote. “We were heartened by your first instinct, which was not to endorse Mr. Trump. We respectfully request that you follow what we believe your heart is telling you and withdraw your endorsement of him now.”
Their letter comes after last week’s moving speech at the Democratic National Convention by Khizr Khan, who spoke of the heroism of his son, U.S. Army Capt. Humayun S.M. Khan, who was killed in Iraq while protecting his troops. Khizr Khan denounced Trump and his proposed ban on Muslims, asking if the real estate mogul has even read the Constitution. Trump responded by criticizing Khan for saying he has “sacrificed nothing,” claiming Khan “has no right” to say “inaccurate things” in front of millions of people. He also questioned why Khan’s wife Ghazala, who stood by his side during his speech, didn’t speak, suggesting she wasn’t allowed to talk because Islam oppresses women.
That hasn’t gone over well with anyone, including Republicans.
Ryan spokeswoman AshLee Strong declined to say Monday if Ryan would pull his support for Trump over the flap. Instead, she pointed to a statement Ryan issued over the weekend, in which he says Capt. Khan’s sacrifice should be honored but says nothing about Trump himself.
Source
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On August 02 2016 12:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.
He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
The diagnosis resulted in a coveted 1-Y medical deferment that fall, exempting him from military service as the United States was undertaking huge troop deployments to Southeast Asia, inducting about 300,000 men into the military that year.
The deferment was one of five Mr. Trump received during Vietnam. The others were for education.
His experience during the era is drawing new scrutiny after the Muslim American parents of a soldier who was killed in Iraq publicly questioned whether Mr. Trump had ever sacrificed for his country. In an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention last week, the soldier’s father, Khizr Khan, directly addressed Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, saying, “You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.
In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.
The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.
Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.
Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem. Source
The left now has to defend the draft and Vietnam war just to be anti-Trump?
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On August 02 2016 11:48 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 11:42 a_flayer wrote:
It is mind boggling to me that "socialism" is seen as something bad by some people.
Yeah, lets not be social about things. Lets not take care of each other. Lets be dicks and cunts instead. People seem to forget that the tribes of old have expanded into millions of people and now we must take care of each other instead of just our tiny little tribe of 100 people. You can't let the "they're not within my tribe so I don't need to give a shit about them" lead your way of thinking in this day and age. It seems you have not read any history or understand anything on how the world works, and simply like the word "social". Capitalism is freely doing business with other people, and benefiting each other. Withing that context, charity is voluntarily giving to others. freely. Socialism is a dictatorship of the state that confiscates from one group of people to give it to other group of people. It has nothing voluntary, or free. The nasty side effects of it can be seen on non-african countries where people starve to death, like North Korea or more recently, Venezuela.
If i were you, i wouldn't try and be smartassy by trying to imply that people are less educated than you in some shape or form, if you have no grasp on reality in regards to capitalism and more importantly, socialism.
For starters, you might want to try and read up on the difference between Socialism and Social Democracy. Because you clearly don't know it.
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I don't think college should be free per say as inflation would bankrupt the nation pretty slowly over time. But subsidizing it at 5k a semester per student would go so far as to making it practically free for community college and put a solid dent in other colleges.
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On August 02 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 12:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.
He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
The diagnosis resulted in a coveted 1-Y medical deferment that fall, exempting him from military service as the United States was undertaking huge troop deployments to Southeast Asia, inducting about 300,000 men into the military that year.
The deferment was one of five Mr. Trump received during Vietnam. The others were for education.
His experience during the era is drawing new scrutiny after the Muslim American parents of a soldier who was killed in Iraq publicly questioned whether Mr. Trump had ever sacrificed for his country. In an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention last week, the soldier’s father, Khizr Khan, directly addressed Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, saying, “You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.
In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.
The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.
Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.
Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem. Source The left now has to defend the draft and Vietnam war just to be anti-Trump?
That's what's amusing about all of this. All of the rah-rah flag waving from the left that they have shit for over a generation.
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On August 02 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 12:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.
He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
The diagnosis resulted in a coveted 1-Y medical deferment that fall, exempting him from military service as the United States was undertaking huge troop deployments to Southeast Asia, inducting about 300,000 men into the military that year.
The deferment was one of five Mr. Trump received during Vietnam. The others were for education.
His experience during the era is drawing new scrutiny after the Muslim American parents of a soldier who was killed in Iraq publicly questioned whether Mr. Trump had ever sacrificed for his country. In an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention last week, the soldier’s father, Khizr Khan, directly addressed Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, saying, “You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.
In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.
The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.
Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.
Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem. Source The left now has to defend the draft and Vietnam war just to be anti-Trump?
More like showing how Trump is full of shit with his tough guy talk. Not defending either of those things....just pointing out how the Don "being tough" is like a small dog who barks at everything to appear tough but is actually weak.
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On August 02 2016 14:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote:On August 02 2016 12:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.
He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
The diagnosis resulted in a coveted 1-Y medical deferment that fall, exempting him from military service as the United States was undertaking huge troop deployments to Southeast Asia, inducting about 300,000 men into the military that year.
The deferment was one of five Mr. Trump received during Vietnam. The others were for education.
His experience during the era is drawing new scrutiny after the Muslim American parents of a soldier who was killed in Iraq publicly questioned whether Mr. Trump had ever sacrificed for his country. In an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention last week, the soldier’s father, Khizr Khan, directly addressed Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, saying, “You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.
In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.
The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.
Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.
Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem. Source The left now has to defend the draft and Vietnam war just to be anti-Trump? That's what's amusing about all of this. All of the rah-rah flag waving from the left that they have shit for over a generation.
Or this is being brought up in response to what Trump has said. Saying McCain is not a hero and you sacrificed in life is going to open you up to what you did in the draft. But I know, this was first stated by the media so it must not be true.
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It's not about supporting the draft or the Vietnam war. It's about Trump's character, the fact that he's a coward.
Nobody looks favorably upon draft-dodgers. But a draft-dodger who publicly and repeatedly insults those who actually did serve their country is just a deplorable person.
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Didn't Bill Clinton dodge the draft too ? Like, it's common for your politicians, politician's sons, and rich people to had dodged that bullet.
Anyways, i do think that people who are not willing to risk their lifes, or know close people who do so, should be much more conservative when talking about war. And this opinion extends to the forumites in here aswell.
On August 02 2016 11:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
Free college is the worse idea ever. For starters there is no free anything, someone else is paying for it.
Secondly, it's just another step in the way to socialism.
Damn, that was a well thought and compelling argument. I must thank you, you managed to exorcise me of this socialist demon i had inside.
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What a circus,They don't give trump 1 minute rest. Clinton cant do anything wrong.
American politics is a freaking joke.To bad Bernie is such a sell out
4 more years of further messing up the middle east (if that is even possible) and growing inequality.
BAH.
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Bernie did what he felt was needed, You should too.
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On August 02 2016 11:48 GoTuNk! wrote:
It seems you have not read any history or understand anything on how the world works, and simply like the word "social".
Capitalism is freely doing business with other people, and benefiting each other. Withing that context, charity is voluntarily giving to others. freely.
Socialism is a dictatorship of the state that confiscates from one group of people to give it to other group of people. It has nothing voluntary, or free. The nasty side effects of it can be seen on non-african countries where people starve to death, like North Korea or more recently, Venezuela.
GoTunk will you be so kind and showcase an example of a libertarian society that works? Somewhere on planet Earth? A society without taxes and public utilities, that is? You seem to think that is a good idea.
You've been given several successful "socialist" examples here, since most of Europe today is socialist to a healthy degree. I think it's your turn for some practical evidence?
Your definition of capitalism is simplistic, naive and intentionally misleading. Ditto for socialism. The practice of offering false assumptions and presenting them as dogma is a major problem.
To me it's ironic how libertarianism suffers from the same disease as marxism. Both operate 100% "in theory" and obsess over the marginal concept of private property without considering how actual human beings behave when presented with certain life circumstances and social realities. This happens to be the fundamental issue.
You want to replace social programs, free education and public services with "charity"? I can honestly say that makes me laugh. Good luck! In theory, communism works ... 
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How ironic... Hillary criticises Trump for disliking emails containing classified information when she and her people have mishandled 50,000+ emails now.
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Utah could vote Democrat for president for first time in 5 decades
http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-could-vote-democrat-for-president-for-first-time-in-50-years
Where is trump going to get all the money to defend all these states. The fact that trump could lose Missouri, Utah or Georgia should be sending shock waves through team trump. That is like hilery pulling even with trump in cali and New york polls. I mean he is going to have to have a ground game in every battleground state cause he cant afford to give up any. Also going to have to flip some light blue states and it looks like he is going to have to play some defense in some deep red states. From his funding numbers he had raised almost nothing. He cant self fund that much, he is not that rich.
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United States44216 Posts
On August 02 2016 11:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
Free college is the worse idea ever. For starters there is no free anything, someone else is paying for it.
Secondly, it's just another step in the way to socialism.
All it does is create even more useless degrees and keep raising the prices of education because of the endless demand created by the state.
Surely the solution then will become that the mighty state will have to regulate courses available/and or prices. Later, this will not seem enough, and the government will acquire the universities all together.
Edit: This is how they are ruining my country atm, btw.
You didn't make an argument here.
Firstly, nobody thinks that free means literally provided by God free of charge, they mean free at the point of delivery. Obviously it'd be paid for by taxes, people who want free college know that what they want is higher taxes to fund government provided college. Surely you're not stupid enough to think everyone believes that government services and government taxes have no relationship and that you're blowing our minds by pointing out that taxes pay for services.
Secondly, we like socialism, that's not a bad thing, socialism has been working pretty fucking well for us so far. You can't just say "but socialism!" and end the argument there when the majority of the richest and most successful countries in the world, including the United States, have large parts of their economy within the public sector.
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United States44216 Posts
On August 02 2016 14:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 13:27 oBlade wrote:On August 02 2016 12:41 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.
He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
The diagnosis resulted in a coveted 1-Y medical deferment that fall, exempting him from military service as the United States was undertaking huge troop deployments to Southeast Asia, inducting about 300,000 men into the military that year.
The deferment was one of five Mr. Trump received during Vietnam. The others were for education.
His experience during the era is drawing new scrutiny after the Muslim American parents of a soldier who was killed in Iraq publicly questioned whether Mr. Trump had ever sacrificed for his country. In an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention last week, the soldier’s father, Khizr Khan, directly addressed Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, saying, “You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.
In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.
The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.
Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.
Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem. Source The left now has to defend the draft and Vietnam war just to be anti-Trump? That's what's amusing about all of this. All of the rah-rah flag waving from the left that they have shit for over a generation.
But muh troops? Don't you support muh murca?
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On August 02 2016 17:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 11:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
Free college is the worse idea ever. For starters there is no free anything, someone else is paying for it.
Secondly, it's just another step in the way to socialism.
All it does is create even more useless degrees and keep raising the prices of education because of the endless demand created by the state.
Surely the solution then will become that the mighty state will have to regulate courses available/and or prices. Later, this will not seem enough, and the government will acquire the universities all together.
Edit: This is how they are ruining my country atm, btw. You didn't make an argument here. Firstly, nobody thinks that free means literally provided by God free of charge, they mean free at the point of delivery. Obviously it'd be paid for by taxes, people who want free college know that what they want is higher taxes to fund government provided college. Surely you're not stupid enough to think everyone believes that government services and government taxes have no relationship and that you're blowing our minds by pointing out that taxes pay for services. Secondly, we like socialism, that's not a bad thing, socialism has been working pretty fucking well for us so far. You can't just say "but socialism!" and end the argument there when the majority of the richest and most successful countries in the world, including the United States, have large parts of their economy within the public sector.
Roads are currently underfunded, infrastructure is currently underfunded, we can barely get enough taxes to keep our cities from falling into despair--and somehow an expensive and optional service will be affordable... just because?
No matter what you say actual taxes is, you need to be collecting the taxes for it to matter.
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United States44216 Posts
On August 02 2016 17:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 17:22 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2016 11:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
Free college is the worse idea ever. For starters there is no free anything, someone else is paying for it.
Secondly, it's just another step in the way to socialism.
All it does is create even more useless degrees and keep raising the prices of education because of the endless demand created by the state.
Surely the solution then will become that the mighty state will have to regulate courses available/and or prices. Later, this will not seem enough, and the government will acquire the universities all together.
Edit: This is how they are ruining my country atm, btw. You didn't make an argument here. Firstly, nobody thinks that free means literally provided by God free of charge, they mean free at the point of delivery. Obviously it'd be paid for by taxes, people who want free college know that what they want is higher taxes to fund government provided college. Surely you're not stupid enough to think everyone believes that government services and government taxes have no relationship and that you're blowing our minds by pointing out that taxes pay for services. Secondly, we like socialism, that's not a bad thing, socialism has been working pretty fucking well for us so far. You can't just say "but socialism!" and end the argument there when the majority of the richest and most successful countries in the world, including the United States, have large parts of their economy within the public sector. Roads are currently underfunded, infrastructure is currently underfunded, we can barely get enough taxes to keep our cities from falling into despair--and somehow an expensive and optional service will be affordable... just because? No matter what you say actual taxes is, you need to be collecting the taxes for it to matter.
You're assuming for some reason that the publicly funded education won't eat into the money currently being thrown at the private system. It's a bad assumption. Take the British NHS for example. It costs about $2,400 per person in the UK. If you were to propose an increase of taxes of $2,400 per person in the US for government healthcare it'd probably get rejected. And yet the US already spends $10,000 per person on healthcare. What you'd actually be offering would be a $7,600 reduction in expenditure and while taxes may go up there would be an increase in paychecks as private insurance benefits were phased out for their cash equivalents, more than offsetting the taxes. The gross inefficiency of the private system means that the replacement, even if funded through taxes, actually makes people richer.
Also "but my roads" is not a viable counterargument unless you're actually suggesting we do something about the roads. And we should. But there is money for both. The United States is not a poor country. If you're really upset about those roads there are cuts elsewhere that can be made.
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On August 02 2016 15:35 Dromar wrote:
It's not about supporting the draft or the Vietnam war. It's about Trump's character, the fact that he's a coward.
Nobody looks favorably upon draft-dodgers. But a draft-dodger who publicly and repeatedly insults those who actually did serve their country is just a deplorable person.
If Trump had been a conscientious objector or a pacifist I would not have looked unfavourably on his desire to escape the draft, but as far as I can tell he has made no indication of being either of those. I'd say that the opposite is more likely: he seems to enjoy the idea of being at war.
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EPT
