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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 04:13 GMT
#8841
the problem is you create pressure to teach to the test which gets in the way of education. Education is not about learning to fill bubbles
shikata ga nai
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
September 16 2013 04:15 GMT
#8842
On September 16 2013 11:44 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 11:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 11:28 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 16 2013 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Teacher's unions have generally been opposed to merit pay and the sacking of poorly performing teachers.

Administrators want to impose merit pay as an incentive to keep good teachers around.

Currently bad teachers are shuffled around from one school to the next because it's too hard to fire them. It's called "the dance of the lemons."

Every public school principal is painfully familiar with being forced to send children to a classroom where she knows the teacher there is not the best fit, but the teacher's placement has been forced on the school by higher-ups at the central district. In an effort to improve classroom instruction, bad teachers are often shuffled from one school to another, an administrative tactic known among principals as "The Dance of the Lemons."

link


Merit pay isn't really a good policy. Teachers didn't go into teaching for the moneys. The went into it for the teaching. Sorry, but it's one of these easy-but-dumb solutions.

From what I've seen about Merit Pay, the main effect it has is causing good teachers to move to other districts where they don't have to put up with that crap.

Merit pay isn't magic, but it's often effective. Lots of people in other industries take jobs for more reasons than the money, but they still respond to it. What's different about teaching that would make them leave (assuming they are, in fact)? Are they fleeing the merit pay or are they running to safe salary?


Well, I googled it, and I found things pointing both in favor and against merit pay, so I can't say whether it is effective or not. The general consensus I found is that it hasn't been effective at all so far, and proponents say it needs to be tweaked.

I don't quite know why it doesn't work. One thing is that teachers are more motivated by social pressures, not financial pressures. By shifting it to financial pressures it actually diminishes their care of the social pressure.

In general I think teachers should be treated with a lot more respect in our society than we give them. Parents and administrators are very quick to blame teachers for everything, including their own issues. That's the main problem, and merit pay really doesn't address that. It's a band-aid at best.

Hey Doublereed, I thought I would never agree with you about anything but here I think you're making sense. My wife is a teacher though so maybe I'm biased ...

I think the biggest problem with merit pay is that it's hard to measure a teacher's merit. The class does well, but that could just be because the teacher is in a district where all the parents make their kids spend two hours a night on homework. Classes aren't that big so there's really not that big a sample size. I would totally support some kind of merit pay for teachers but only if it was demonstrably on real merit, instead of who the principal happens to like.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
September 16 2013 04:21 GMT
#8843
On September 16 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
the problem is you create pressure to teach to the test which gets in the way of education. Education is not about learning to fill bubbles

Not sure about this. There are some core things that every kid should learn. It's great if your kid is a special snowflake but he still needs to learn how to write and do math, and he can't learn to do it his own way.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13925 Posts
September 16 2013 04:21 GMT
#8844
If you've ever tried to grow a tree at your house you'll understand this better... BUT


If you just dig a hole in the ground and plant the tree its not going to grow well. you can't just expect it to produce fruit at the start so you need to keep it in a tree training program for a few years. When you get the tree you need to dig a very deep hole in the ground and fill it with the best soil there is. then you lower your tree into an indentation. then you must put more good dirt over the tree and then again protect the tree with wood chips at the bottom of it. Then you have to support your trees with water and food. showing them vocal support also helps. as en example with student teaching if you take the fruit off the branches at the early years it will grow faster and be better quicker for you at the start.

Clearly the time to make the tree preform better isn't at the very start of the trees existence nor is it at any point after its acclimated to the new ground you've decided to put it in. Even if the example was just apple trees there are tons of different apple trees and tons of differences regionally to them. They all spend time away in a tree farm befor they're said to be ready and then sold to you.

Teachers should be considered the largest and best economic investment the nation has. the Problem is that most of the focus about teachers isn't until well and after they've been planted and cannot be transplanted again. they should be taught better and taken care of better at the start. How many schools have to cut promising new teachers because of budget cuts and tenure?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 16 2013 04:22 GMT
#8845
On September 16 2013 12:57 sam!zdat wrote:
standardized testing teaches kids to think like cogs
where there is standardized testing, there is no education, there is the opposite of education. The purpose of standardized testing is to terrorize children into hating school and make them think learning is something you do on an assembly line.


It's hard for people who were graded A prime meat on the assembly line to understand why standardized testing is such a bad thing. Besides, that might involve the realization that education is an assembly line producing canned meat from the capitalist abattoir for the good of the Economy.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 04:28 GMT
#8846
On September 16 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
the problem is you create pressure to teach to the test which gets in the way of education. Education is not about learning to fill bubbles

That's true, but isn't that also a function of how you design and implement the test?
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 16 2013 04:31 GMT
#8847
On September 16 2013 13:22 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 12:57 sam!zdat wrote:
standardized testing teaches kids to think like cogs
where there is standardized testing, there is no education, there is the opposite of education. The purpose of standardized testing is to terrorize children into hating school and make them think learning is something you do on an assembly line.


Besides, that might involve the realization that education is an assembly line producing canned meat from the capitalist abattoir for the good of the Economy.

Ignoring the emotional language, how is this an inherent flaw in education? Should society not want to produce effective, efficient workers and citizens?
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 04:32 GMT
#8848
I was the fucking filet mignon of standardized testing, and I did it with my eyes closed and one hand behind my back. Still managed to pierce the veil somehow :p My parents instilled in me a healthy scorn for rote learning I suppose but we can't all have amateur philosophers for fathers

sermo I like you rant about the tree, a plus for the day
shikata ga nai
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2013 04:34 GMT
#8849
On September 16 2013 13:21 Sermokala wrote:
If you've ever tried to grow a tree at your house you'll understand this better... BUT


If you just dig a hole in the ground and plant the tree its not going to grow well. you can't just expect it to produce fruit at the start so you need to keep it in a tree training program for a few years. When you get the tree you need to dig a very deep hole in the ground and fill it with the best soil there is. then you lower your tree into an indentation. then you must put more good dirt over the tree and then again protect the tree with wood chips at the bottom of it. Then you have to support your trees with water and food. showing them vocal support also helps. as en example with student teaching if you take the fruit off the branches at the early years it will grow faster and be better quicker for you at the start.

Clearly the time to make the tree preform better isn't at the very start of the trees existence nor is it at any point after its acclimated to the new ground you've decided to put it in. Even if the example was just apple trees there are tons of different apple trees and tons of differences regionally to them. They all spend time away in a tree farm befor they're said to be ready and then sold to you.

Teachers should be considered the largest and best economic investment the nation has. the Problem is that most of the focus about teachers isn't until well and after they've been planted and cannot be transplanted again. they should be taught better and taken care of better at the start. How many schools have to cut promising new teachers because of budget cuts and tenure?

I'm with you on the tree analogy to the testing, except for showing vocal support to a tree helping it. It has had no such effect in my garden. The rest of it is in line with my own thinking on the subject.

I'd like to reduce some of the up-front pressure on new teachers to acclimate quickly and produce expected results. It generates significant pressure to teach to whatever test will directly impact their future tenure.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 16 2013 04:39 GMT
#8850
Teaching is a tough subject. I'm a hard-line conservative, but my uber-liberal (but utterly trustworthy and an absolute amazing person) cousin is a teacher, and some of her stories make me question the common conservative thinking on teachers and teaching.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 04:42 GMT
#8851
superfan you just warmed up my day. Now convince everyone else in your party about this please
shikata ga nai
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
September 16 2013 04:43 GMT
#8852
Sometimes its really funny to look through here and see who has their country listed.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 04:46 GMT
#8853
On September 16 2013 12:53 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 12:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 12:41 Sermokala wrote:
Education is like farming.

In this case the teachers are the trees.

How can you make the tree grow the fruit better?

Monsanto seeds? Forward futures markets? Higher value added processes / services? Better coordination of farm labor via GPS tracking?

So dumb. You obviously just pay the farmer more so he can synergize the trees better. Or import trees from mexico for a fraction of the cost and keep two sets of books.

I don't like the idea of just paying the farmer more or keeping two sets of books. That sounds expensive

I'm open to importing, but let's not make any final decisions without data and a rigorous discussion.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 16 2013 04:50 GMT
#8854
On September 16 2013 13:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 13:22 IgnE wrote:
On September 16 2013 12:57 sam!zdat wrote:
standardized testing teaches kids to think like cogs
where there is standardized testing, there is no education, there is the opposite of education. The purpose of standardized testing is to terrorize children into hating school and make them think learning is something you do on an assembly line.


Besides, that might involve the realization that education is an assembly line producing canned meat from the capitalist abattoir for the good of the Economy.

Ignoring the emotional language, how is this an inherent flaw in education? Should society not want to produce effective, efficient workers and citizens?


"Effective, efficient workers?" No, thanks. I'm not a robot. I'd rather be a more fully realized human being who works for myself, thinks for myself, and exists in an organic social community rather than a more efficient cog churning out more widgets so that I can buy more widgets in a society where even social interaction is commoditized.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13925 Posts
September 16 2013 04:54 GMT
#8855
On September 16 2013 13:34 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 13:21 Sermokala wrote:
If you've ever tried to grow a tree at your house you'll understand this better... BUT


If you just dig a hole in the ground and plant the tree its not going to grow well. you can't just expect it to produce fruit at the start so you need to keep it in a tree training program for a few years. When you get the tree you need to dig a very deep hole in the ground and fill it with the best soil there is. then you lower your tree into an indentation. then you must put more good dirt over the tree and then again protect the tree with wood chips at the bottom of it. Then you have to support your trees with water and food. showing them vocal support also helps. as en example with student teaching if you take the fruit off the branches at the early years it will grow faster and be better quicker for you at the start.

Clearly the time to make the tree preform better isn't at the very start of the trees existence nor is it at any point after its acclimated to the new ground you've decided to put it in. Even if the example was just apple trees there are tons of different apple trees and tons of differences regionally to them. They all spend time away in a tree farm befor they're said to be ready and then sold to you.

Teachers should be considered the largest and best economic investment the nation has. the Problem is that most of the focus about teachers isn't until well and after they've been planted and cannot be transplanted again. they should be taught better and taken care of better at the start. How many schools have to cut promising new teachers because of budget cuts and tenure?

I'm with you on the tree analogy to the testing, except for showing vocal support to a tree helping it. It has had no such effect in my garden. The rest of it is in line with my own thinking on the subject.

I'd like to reduce some of the up-front pressure on new teachers to acclimate quickly and produce expected results. It generates significant pressure to teach to whatever test will directly impact their future tenure.

They did it on myth busters and proved that plants even as small as possible have a clear benifit when noise is around them.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 04:56 GMT
#8856
On September 16 2013 13:50 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 13:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 16 2013 13:22 IgnE wrote:
On September 16 2013 12:57 sam!zdat wrote:
standardized testing teaches kids to think like cogs
where there is standardized testing, there is no education, there is the opposite of education. The purpose of standardized testing is to terrorize children into hating school and make them think learning is something you do on an assembly line.


Besides, that might involve the realization that education is an assembly line producing canned meat from the capitalist abattoir for the good of the Economy.

Ignoring the emotional language, how is this an inherent flaw in education? Should society not want to produce effective, efficient workers and citizens?


"Effective, efficient workers?" No, thanks. I'm not a robot. I'd rather be a more fully realized human being who works for myself, thinks for myself, and exists in an organic social community rather than a more efficient cog churning out more widgets so that I can buy more widgets in a society where even social interaction is commoditized.

I don't consider those mutually exclusive goals.

We should be educating people to be smart, creative thinkers. That's also what the economy needs more of. We don't need cogs in the US, we have China for that now and robots in the future.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 16 2013 05:01 GMT
#8857
You know, I think it's funny that Jonny thinks teachers in MA get a lot of respect. I am on the east coast as well, and at my state undergrad institution the people who majored in "education" were mostly in the bottom third of the ability spectrum. I'm not saying that all teachers are dumb, but I am saying that there is real economic and social pressure pushing those who are capable of being great teachers into better paying or more prestigious fields. There are a lot of schools in the country, and most of those schools are getting filled with teachers who took classes on how to teach basic shapes, venn diagrams, and simple mathematical functions in college.

I remember one time after my Latin class when an Education class came in and started teaching how to make venn diagrams to the Education majors. I was dumbfounded.

Moreover, my impression from talking to family and friends who are teachers is that it often becomes more about classroom management than actually teaching any substantive material. Teachers in poorer areas are often glorified nannies and deal with ridiculous shit.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 05:07 GMT
#8858
the economy doesn't want smart, creative thinkers. Smart creative thinkers cause trouble by asking dangerous questions about the purpose of economies
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 05:11 GMT
#8859
On September 16 2013 14:07 sam!zdat wrote:
the economy doesn't want smart, creative thinkers. Smart creative thinkers cause trouble by asking dangerous questions about the purpose of economies

Smart, creative thinkers are the ones companies want to hire these days. Stakhanovites fell out of favor a while ago.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 16 2013 05:16 GMT
#8860
On September 16 2013 13:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 13:50 IgnE wrote:
On September 16 2013 13:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 16 2013 13:22 IgnE wrote:
On September 16 2013 12:57 sam!zdat wrote:
standardized testing teaches kids to think like cogs
where there is standardized testing, there is no education, there is the opposite of education. The purpose of standardized testing is to terrorize children into hating school and make them think learning is something you do on an assembly line.


Besides, that might involve the realization that education is an assembly line producing canned meat from the capitalist abattoir for the good of the Economy.

Ignoring the emotional language, how is this an inherent flaw in education? Should society not want to produce effective, efficient workers and citizens?


"Effective, efficient workers?" No, thanks. I'm not a robot. I'd rather be a more fully realized human being who works for myself, thinks for myself, and exists in an organic social community rather than a more efficient cog churning out more widgets so that I can buy more widgets in a society where even social interaction is commoditized.

I don't consider those mutually exclusive goals.

We should be educating people to be smart, creative thinkers. That's also what the economy needs more of. We don't need cogs in the US, we have China for that now and robots in the future.


The system doesn't actually want smart, creative thinkers. They want people who buy into the cultural ethos and are capable of selling things. The economy doesn't want smart, creative people to make better things, things that don't need replacing, things that are better in the long run. The economy needs people to make more things. Or at least to spend more money.

Education in this country is about fully integrating the American Dream Myth into students' worldview to become good consumers. Always hustlin'.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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