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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
July 14 2016 16:15 GMT
#85581
On July 15 2016 01:11 Plansix wrote:
MLK would never have blocked a highway. None of the old, good civil rights leaders would have done that ever.


God forbid someone would have noticed them or something... smh.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 14 2016 16:15 GMT
#85582
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

There's "inconvenient" and then there's "highly damaging." Obstructing a highway is the latter. The only thing that the BLM folks are going to accomplish obstructing a highway is endangering some people and pissing everyone else off. Of course, these idiots are too stupid to see the forest for the trees when it comes to long-term strategic thinking that is not self-sabotaging. They should go hold their protests in front of city hall or police headquarters. All they really need is a forum where they can get publicity.

Also, you can bet that Trump is going to score political points on these issues precisely as a consequence of the inept lawlessness of BLM.
Cowboy24
Profile Joined June 2016
94 Posts
July 14 2016 16:17 GMT
#85583
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

That's true, but those people being inconvenienced will likely not see it that way. To many of them it will no longer be a protest, but a deliberate attack on their ability to engage in society.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, or how you feel about shutting down highways, we have got to be honest about the dangers. It's already an extremely divisive topic. It could boil over in a second, and I don't think anyone wants to see what happens after that, or even knows what to expect if it does happen.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10833 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 16:30:22
July 14 2016 16:29 GMT
#85584
Its pretty simple, if there is tons of people protesting, you have to let them pass.
If its a tiny splintergroup, let the police remove them.

Worker strikes, which are common in many democratic countries, also fuck hard with "normal people" but, if the case is just, will still get some support among the not partaking people.

This is just how demonstrations and strikes work. If they are not annoying, you might also just stay home.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 14 2016 16:29 GMT
#85585
On July 15 2016 01:15 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:11 Plansix wrote:
MLK would never have blocked a highway. None of the old, good civil rights leaders would have done that ever.


God forbid someone would have noticed them or something... smh.

I know, it’s not like MLK ever blocked an entire bridge and then there was a movie made about it. Or got arrested for protesting. Or organized people to sit-ins at segregated restaurants so no one else could eat there.

They just protested politely on the side of the street.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 16:41:36
July 14 2016 16:41 GMT
#85586
On July 15 2016 01:29 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:15 BlueBird. wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:11 Plansix wrote:
MLK would never have blocked a highway. None of the old, good civil rights leaders would have done that ever.


God forbid someone would have noticed them or something... smh.

I know, it’s not like MLK ever blocked an entire bridge and then there was a movie made about it. Or got arrested for protesting. Or organized people to sit-ins at segregated restaurants so no one else could eat there.

They just protested politely on the side of the street.


"protesting only allowed in homeopathic dosage"

I don't really know what people are upset about, compared to the vietnam war and civil rights era today's protesters are a complete joke. If BLM is dangerous what the hell was Mandela?
Cowboy24
Profile Joined June 2016
94 Posts
July 14 2016 16:42 GMT
#85587
On July 15 2016 01:29 Velr wrote:
Its pretty simple, if there is tons of people protesting, you have to let them pass.
If its a tiny splintergroup, let the police remove them.

Worker strikes, which are common in many democratic countries, also fuck hard with "normal people" but, if the case is just, will still get some support among the not partaking people.

This is just how demonstrations and strikes work. If they are not annoying, you might also just stay home.

I'm not saying they shouldn't protest, or even that they shouldn't shut down highways. To be quite honest, looking at the political goals they claim to want, they are right in believing there is no way to obtain those goals without these kinds of protests.

All I'm saying is that I hope they know what they are doing. Because there is a difference between shutting down a segregated lunch counter and shutting down a twelve-lane highway during rush-hour. Not a moral difference (or if there is one, I am not ready to find it), but a logistical difference. One inconveniences the direct target in an effort to convince him to change his behavior. The other inconveniences everyone in an effort to convince them to change other people's behavior. Any time you generalize the inconvenience, you run certain risks, regardless of whether it is a just goal or not.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10833 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 16:45:54
July 14 2016 16:42 GMT
#85588
@ nyxisto In another country.

@cowboy
To achieve systematical change you shut down the system. To shut down 1 racist balery, you shut down the balery.

And yes, they should let ambulances pass.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4884 Posts
July 14 2016 16:44 GMT
#85589
On July 14 2016 23:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 15:32 Introvert wrote:
If you want stuff that actually speaks to people, instead of protests and angry slogans, try this. Also works as a good substitute for Obama's constant divisive language.

+ Show Spoiler +









Second one is probably more relevant to this thread.

Errr. Obama's language is divisive? Oo

How do you qualify Trump's language, just out of curiosity?

After Orlando, Obama was bashed by Republicans for not being divisive enough because it's all about muslims vs non-muslims and they are the enemy. Now he is constantly divisive.

Must be tiring to be POTUS.


Look at the Dallas speech. First 20 min good, the rest was terrible. He's always been this way when it comes to race issues. Great uniter indeed.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10833 Posts
July 14 2016 16:47 GMT
#85590
Divisive = questioning the status quo and the republican held congress for their inaction?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 14 2016 16:47 GMT
#85591
On July 15 2016 01:41 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:29 Plansix wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:15 BlueBird. wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:11 Plansix wrote:
MLK would never have blocked a highway. None of the old, good civil rights leaders would have done that ever.


God forbid someone would have noticed them or something... smh.

I know, it’s not like MLK ever blocked an entire bridge and then there was a movie made about it. Or got arrested for protesting. Or organized people to sit-ins at segregated restaurants so no one else could eat there.

They just protested politely on the side of the street.


"protesting only allowed in homeopathic dosage"

I don't really know what people are upset about, compared to the vietnam war and civil rights era today's protesters are a complete joke. If BLM is dangerous what the hell was Mandela?

Severely whitewashed.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15727 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 16:48:33
July 14 2016 16:48 GMT
#85592
On July 15 2016 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

There's "inconvenient" and then there's "highly damaging." Obstructing a highway is the latter. The only thing that the BLM folks are going to accomplish obstructing a highway is endangering some people and pissing everyone else off. Of course, these idiots are too stupid to see the forest for the trees when it comes to long-term strategic thinking that is not self-sabotaging. They should go hold their protests in front of city hall or police headquarters. All they really need is a forum where they can get publicity.

Also, you can bet that Trump is going to score political points on these issues precisely as a consequence of the inept lawlessness of BLM.

Someone as liberal as me, who is also brown and has also encountered racism, should have an easy time supporting blm. But nope, they are just such misguided, poorly organized, bitter idiots.

I'd say even occupy wall St was a better movement than this. Right wing activism is just as misguided as the left's. But at least the right wing is cohesive. Our activists are a bunch of arm chair anarchists with no idea how to get anything done or what they even really want.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 14 2016 16:49 GMT
#85593
On July 15 2016 01:42 Velr wrote:
@ nyxisto In another country.

@cowboy
To achieve systematical change you shut down the system. To shut down 1 racist balery, you shut down the balery.

And yes, they should let ambulances pass.

Its not like gridlocked traffic isn't something that they are prepared. Traffic stops for any number of reasons and emergency service are able to deal with it. There was that one story of the kid who was sick in the traffic jam itself, but that is also something emergency services are able to do.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 14 2016 16:49 GMT
#85594
WASHINGTON ― Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has settled on Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) as his vice presidential running mate, according to multiple reports including the governor’s local paper.

A formal announcement is expected to come on Friday in New York City. Though several outlets reported that it was a done deal, the New York Times reported that there were only strong signals that Pence was being tapped for the gig, as of Thursday afternoon. However, Trump’s communication office denied that a decision has been made.

Pence, 57, brings nearly four years of executive experience to the ticket and can help shore up Trump’s credibility among establishment holdouts within the GOP. The governor also seems to have met Trump’s stated preference of a running mate who can ably navigate the corridors of power in Washington ― Pence previously served 12 years in the House of Representatives, including two years as chairman of the House Republican Conference.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
July 14 2016 16:53 GMT
#85595
On July 15 2016 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

There's "inconvenient" and then there's "highly damaging." Obstructing a highway is the latter. The only thing that the BLM folks are going to accomplish obstructing a highway is endangering some people and pissing everyone else off. Of course, these idiots are too stupid to see the forest for the trees when it comes to long-term strategic thinking that is not self-sabotaging. They should go hold their protests in front of city hall or police headquarters. All they really need is a forum where they can get publicity.

Also, you can bet that Trump is going to score political points on these issues precisely as a consequence of the inept lawlessness of BLM.


The protests in the 60s were damaging and pissed people off. The sit ins and other demonstrations hurt businesses, entire business districts, and cities. Shit got done as a result.

There were people back then who also thought that was too much, and MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail is literally written to some white clergy who expressed such an opinion.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 14 2016 16:55 GMT
#85596
On July 15 2016 01:44 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2016 23:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On July 14 2016 15:32 Introvert wrote:
If you want stuff that actually speaks to people, instead of protests and angry slogans, try this. Also works as a good substitute for Obama's constant divisive language.

+ Show Spoiler +


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx6rUw7t_O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmMQimrT8qk




Second one is probably more relevant to this thread.

Errr. Obama's language is divisive? Oo

How do you qualify Trump's language, just out of curiosity?

After Orlando, Obama was bashed by Republicans for not being divisive enough because it's all about muslims vs non-muslims and they are the enemy. Now he is constantly divisive.

Must be tiring to be POTUS.


Look at the Dallas speech. First 20 min good, the rest was terrible. He's always been this way when it comes to race issues. Great uniter indeed.

It also closely mirrored the issues the Dallas police chief has on guns and the lack of action from congress.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/11/485559307/listen-on-guns-dallas-police-chief-tells-legislators-do-your-job

There is no other time to talk about these issues because congress is never going to have a debate on them.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 14 2016 16:56 GMT
#85597
On July 15 2016 01:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

There's "inconvenient" and then there's "highly damaging." Obstructing a highway is the latter. The only thing that the BLM folks are going to accomplish obstructing a highway is endangering some people and pissing everyone else off. Of course, these idiots are too stupid to see the forest for the trees when it comes to long-term strategic thinking that is not self-sabotaging. They should go hold their protests in front of city hall or police headquarters. All they really need is a forum where they can get publicity.

Also, you can bet that Trump is going to score political points on these issues precisely as a consequence of the inept lawlessness of BLM.

Someone as liberal as me, who is also brown and has also encountered racism, should have an easy time supporting blm. But nope, they are just such misguided, poorly organized, bitter idiots.

I'd say even occupy wall St was a better movement than this. Right wing activism is just as misguided as the left's. But at least the right wing is cohesive. Our activists are a bunch of arm chair anarchists with no idea how to get anything done or what they even really want.


Case in point above.

And all of these invocations of MLK to justify what BLM does are absolutely laughable. First, BLM's cause lacks the self-evident righteousness of MLK's. The big battles have all been won. Second, information and communication have so-evolved over the past 60 years that creating levels of disruption that antagonize civilians is no longer necessary to draw attention to the cause. Simply put, MLK's tactics are antiquated. No need to carpet bomb an entire city to destroy an ammunition factory when a few precision-guided missiles will do, right?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 16:59:02
July 14 2016 16:56 GMT
#85598
On July 15 2016 01:42 Velr wrote:
@ nyxisto In another country.


Well if there's one country on the planet that ought to be able to symphatize with the idea of a people bringing down a tyrannical government it's probably the US right? Or is that a right exclusively reserved to Anglo-Saxons?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 14 2016 17:06 GMT
#85599
On July 15 2016 01:56 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2016 01:48 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
On July 15 2016 01:08 Velr wrote:
Protests need to be "inconvenient" to non protesters, else you could also have a meeting in your home.

And yes, sadly, this also means that there are risks.

There's "inconvenient" and then there's "highly damaging." Obstructing a highway is the latter. The only thing that the BLM folks are going to accomplish obstructing a highway is endangering some people and pissing everyone else off. Of course, these idiots are too stupid to see the forest for the trees when it comes to long-term strategic thinking that is not self-sabotaging. They should go hold their protests in front of city hall or police headquarters. All they really need is a forum where they can get publicity.

Also, you can bet that Trump is going to score political points on these issues precisely as a consequence of the inept lawlessness of BLM.

Someone as liberal as me, who is also brown and has also encountered racism, should have an easy time supporting blm. But nope, they are just such misguided, poorly organized, bitter idiots.

I'd say even occupy wall St was a better movement than this. Right wing activism is just as misguided as the left's. But at least the right wing is cohesive. Our activists are a bunch of arm chair anarchists with no idea how to get anything done or what they even really want.


Case in point above.

And all of these invocations of MLK to justify what BLM does are absolutely laughable. First, BLM's cause lacks the self-evident righteousness of MLK's. The big battles have all been won. Second, information and communication have so-evolved over the past 60 years that creating levels of disruption that antagonize civilians is no longer necessary to draw attention to the cause. Simply put, MLK's tactics are antiquated. No need to carpet bomb an entire city to destroy an ammunition factory when a few precision-guided missiles will do, right?

Expect most of the protesters will tell you that they already tried the precision guided missiles and it didn't work. And people also forget the main way MLK got the attention of the national media was a calculated effort to guilt northern whites to supporting the civil rights movement actively. With more than just verbal support. He correctly surmised whites will not make any effort unless the issue is front and center for them. It is both a cynical and accurate view of race relations in the US.

I really don't see anything different about today and the current discussions about race in the US.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-14 17:13:07
July 14 2016 17:11 GMT
#85600
On July 15 2016 01:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON ― Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has settled on Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) as his vice presidential running mate, according to multiple reports including the governor’s local paper.

A formal announcement is expected to come on Friday in New York City. Though several outlets reported that it was a done deal, the New York Times reported that there were only strong signals that Pence was being tapped for the gig, as of Thursday afternoon. However, Trump’s communication office denied that a decision has been made.

Pence, 57, brings nearly four years of executive experience to the ticket and can help shore up Trump’s credibility among establishment holdouts within the GOP. The governor also seems to have met Trump’s stated preference of a running mate who can ably navigate the corridors of power in Washington ― Pence previously served 12 years in the House of Representatives, including two years as chairman of the House Republican Conference.


Source


ill hold my breath on this. could be bait and switch, could be trump figuring out who leaked this, could actually be the truth. AFAIK, only trump and his kids know the real choice come tomorrow
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
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