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On July 06 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote: it looks like we have entered the bargaining stage of grief
i for one think thats progress
Is that referencing something or just a random thought fart?
Its definitely referencing the anti-Hillary crowd
Do all the lies really not bother any of you?
Then again, show us that Trump is more trustworthy.
I get it, you are still angry that she cheated Bernie out of the nomination. But you are beating a dead horse now, he went into the game, everyone knew it was an uphill battle, he fought hard, brave and true... and he lost. Did it ever occur to you, that by constantly fighting against Hillary, you are effectively fighting against Bernie now? You do realise that he may have a small bargaining power with Hillary for his support, but if the reps win, it will be mostly the polar opposite of what he stood for.
Here is a bargain, if you stop pouring the salt into the thread with these zero content posts like this (seriously, who do you think in this thread is not perfectly aware of her lies and decided that she would be still the better choice?) I offer you my sig space, for whatever message you deem worthy of it, and tl mods deem appropriate.
We do have a choice, it's on Hillary supporters to make though. .
you really don't understand people emotionally if you think that hillary supporters have any chance of suddenly flipping to bernie after so much uncompromising antagonism from his camp
do you really not realize that this type of accusation is just grouped into the lump of "petulant berniebro complaints about hillary" that have been coming out for over half a year now? people don't change their minds this way. you're delusional in the exact same way bernie was delusional, thinking that doubling down on the same talking points and failing to address the appeal of moderation could have a remote chance of serving as a path to victory.
"stop prioritizing what you prioritize and suddenly prioritze what i prioritize," as if that doesnt take a dramatic scrambling of one's neocortex
it also happens that stably employed older demographics have more stable neocortices to match their desire for stability... and the utterances of yours won't increase their plasticity
Yeah, I'm saying things like the "petulant Berniebro" narrative were part of that campaign of deception and if her supporters took off the political blinders long enough it would be pretty clear how this pattern of deception is far wider spread than just her private server. One would hope the undeniable outright fictions she got caught telling the American people would be enough for them to fall for at least a moment, but it does seem that isn't happening.
On July 06 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote: it looks like we have entered the bargaining stage of grief
i for one think thats progress
Is that referencing something or just a random thought fart?
Its definitely referencing the anti-Hillary crowd
Do all the lies really not bother any of you?
Then again, show us that Trump is more trustworthy.
I get it, you are still angry that she cheated Bernie out of the nomination. But you are beating a dead horse now, he went into the game, everyone knew it was an uphill battle, he fought hard, brave and true... and he lost. Did it ever occur to you, that by constantly fighting against Hillary, you are effectively fighting against Bernie now? You do realise that he may have a small bargaining power with Hillary for his support, but if the reps win, it will be mostly the polar opposite of what he stood for.
Here is a bargain, if you stop pouring the salt into the thread with these zero content posts like this (seriously, who do you think in this thread is not perfectly aware of her lies and decided that she would be still the better choice?) I offer you my sig space, for whatever message you deem worthy of it, and tl mods deem appropriate.
We do have a choice, it's on Hillary supporters to make though. .
you really don't understand people emotionally if you think that hillary supporters have any chance of suddenly flipping to bernie after so much uncompromising antagonism from his camp
do you really not realize that this type of accusation is just grouped into the lump of "petulant berniebro complaints about hillary" that have been coming out for over half a year now? people don't change their minds this way. you're delusional in the exact same way bernie was delusional, thinking that doubling down on the same talking points and failing to address the appeal of moderation could have a remote chance of serving as a path to victory.
"stop prioritizing what you prioritize and suddenly prioritze what i prioritize," as if that doesnt take a dramatic scrambling of one's neocortex
it also happens that stably employed older demographics have more stable neocortices to match their desire for stability... and the utterances of yours won't increase their plasticity
Yeah, I'm saying things like the "petulant Berniebro" narrative were part of that campaign of deception and if her supporters took off the political blinders long enough it would be pretty clear how this pattern of deception is far wider spread than just her private server. One would hope the undeniable outright fictions she got caught telling the American people would be enough for them to fall for at least a moment, but it does seem that isn't happening.
It's a shame.
i grew sick of berniebros long before i thought supporting hillary was important at all, especially being from california where my vote for president literally doesnt matter in the GE
i didn't buy into a narrative, i just independently grew sick of bernie's faults... i wanted him to be better than he was, i wanted him to actually put up a good fight, i wanted him to display that he had the political savvy to handle the office well, and he really didn't, in my opinion.
for the record i still don't really "support" hillary, but i'm cynical enough to believe "lesser of two (probable) evils" is actually important here
i dunno how much longer it'll take you to lose the illusion that a bernie resurgence is probable, but it's gotta be soon.
On July 06 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote: it looks like we have entered the bargaining stage of grief
i for one think thats progress
Is that referencing something or just a random thought fart?
Its definitely referencing the anti-Hillary crowd
Do all the lies really not bother any of you?
Then again, show us that Trump is more trustworthy.
I get it, you are still angry that she cheated Bernie out of the nomination. But you are beating a dead horse now, he went into the game, everyone knew it was an uphill battle, he fought hard, brave and true... and he lost. Did it ever occur to you, that by constantly fighting against Hillary, you are effectively fighting against Bernie now? You do realise that he may have a small bargaining power with Hillary for his support, but if the reps win, it will be mostly the polar opposite of what he stood for.
Here is a bargain, if you stop pouring the salt into the thread with these zero content posts like this (seriously, who do you think in this thread is not perfectly aware of her lies and decided that she would be still the better choice?) I offer you my sig space, for whatever message you deem worthy of it, and tl mods deem appropriate.
We do have a choice, it's on Hillary supporters to make though. .
you really don't understand people emotionally if you think that hillary supporters have any chance of suddenly flipping to bernie after so much uncompromising antagonism from his camp
do you really not realize that this type of accusation is just grouped into the lump of "petulant berniebro complaints about hillary" that have been coming out for over half a year now? people don't change their minds this way. you're delusional in the exact same way bernie was delusional, thinking that doubling down on the same talking points and failing to address the appeal of moderation could have a remote chance of serving as a path to victory.
"stop prioritizing what you prioritize and suddenly prioritze what i prioritize," as if that doesnt take a dramatic scrambling of one's neocortex
it also happens that stably employed older demographics have more stable neocortices to match their desire for stability... and the utterances of yours won't increase their plasticity
Yeah, I'm saying things like the "petulant Berniebro" narrative were part of that campaign of deception and if her supporters took off the political blinders long enough it would be pretty clear how this pattern of deception is far wider spread than just her private server. One would hope the undeniable outright fictions she got caught telling the American people would be enough for them to fall for at least a moment, but it does seem that isn't happening.
It's a shame.
i grew sick of berniebros long before i thought supporting hillary was important at all, especially being from california where my vote for president literally doesnt matter in the GE
i didn't buy into a narrative, i just independently grew sick of bernie's faults... i wanted him to be better than he was, i wanted him to actually put up a good fight, and he really didn't, in my opinion.
for the record i still don't really "support" hillary, but i'm cynical enough to believe "lesser of two (probable) evils" is actually important here
i dunno how much longer it'll take you to lose the illusion that a bernie resurgence is probable, but it's gotta be soon.
I'm not under the impression Bernie getting the nomination is probable, and haven't been for a while. I'm just saying a few people with some integrity could change that if they really wanted to, there just doesn't seem to be very many left in politics.
I think Hillary supporters (particularly the lesser of two evil ones) would be lying if they said having Hillary be Bernie's Dick Cheney wouldn't be the best of both worlds (if we assume what they think about everyone involved is true).
when your voter base is engaged in constant emotional antagonism with your opponents voter base, repeatedly implying theyre delusional and criminally complicit, do you
a. try to find ways to ameliorate and emotionally appeal through positivity and demonstrate that you can assuage some concerns of your opponents'?
or b. double down and join your own voter base because you're on The Right Side of History and a Revolutionary?
one of these shows savvy
as for your point about bernie becoming hillary's cheney, he kind of poisoned the well himself by annoying the shit out of the democratic establishment by not properly rolling over
On July 06 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote: it looks like we have entered the bargaining stage of grief
i for one think thats progress
Is that referencing something or just a random thought fart?
Its definitely referencing the anti-Hillary crowd
Do all the lies really not bother any of you?
Then again, show us that Trump is more trustworthy.
I get it, you are still angry that she cheated Bernie out of the nomination. But you are beating a dead horse now, he went into the game, everyone knew it was an uphill battle, he fought hard, brave and true... and he lost. Did it ever occur to you, that by constantly fighting against Hillary, you are effectively fighting against Bernie now? You do realise that he may have a small bargaining power with Hillary for his support, but if the reps win, it will be mostly the polar opposite of what he stood for.
Here is a bargain, if you stop pouring the salt into the thread with these zero content posts like this (seriously, who do you think in this thread is not perfectly aware of her lies and decided that she would be still the better choice?) I offer you my sig space, for whatever message you deem worthy of it, and tl mods deem appropriate.
We do have a choice, it's on Hillary supporters to make though. .
you really don't understand people emotionally if you think that hillary supporters have any chance of suddenly flipping to bernie after so much uncompromising antagonism from his camp
do you really not realize that this type of accusation is just grouped into the lump of "petulant berniebro complaints about hillary" that have been coming out for over half a year now? people don't change their minds this way. you're delusional in the exact same way bernie was delusional, thinking that doubling down on the same talking points and failing to address the appeal of moderation could have a remote chance of serving as a path to victory.
"stop prioritizing what you prioritize and suddenly prioritze what i prioritize," as if that doesnt take a dramatic scrambling of one's neocortex
it also happens that stably employed older demographics have more stable neocortices to match their desire for stability... and the utterances of yours won't increase their plasticity
Yeah, I'm saying things like the "petulant Berniebro" narrative were part of that campaign of deception and if her supporters took off the political blinders long enough it would be pretty clear how this pattern of deception is far wider spread than just her private server. One would hope the undeniable outright fictions she got caught telling the American people would be enough for them to fall for at least a moment, but it does seem that isn't happening.
It's a shame.
i grew sick of berniebros long before i thought supporting hillary was important at all, especially being from california where my vote for president literally doesnt matter in the GE
i didn't buy into a narrative, i just independently grew sick of bernie's faults... i wanted him to be better than he was, i wanted him to actually put up a good fight, and he really didn't, in my opinion.
for the record i still don't really "support" hillary, but i'm cynical enough to believe "lesser of two (probable) evils" is actually important here
i dunno how much longer it'll take you to lose the illusion that a bernie resurgence is probable, but it's gotta be soon.
I'm not under the impression Bernie getting the nomination is probable, and haven't been for a while. I'm just saying a few people with some integrity could change that if they really wanted to, there just doesn't seem to be very many left in politics.
if you start blaming the game instead of playing it, you better be damn well sure the rules of the game arent more entrenched than you think.
still idealism, still martyrdom
martyrdom doesnt really work when the onlookers are wondering why you crucified yourself for no apparent gain
edit: quoted the wrong paragraph
and you seem to be missing that people who voted hillary over bernie did consider her the lesser of those 2 dangers too... i guess i say danger over evil because its about stability over idealism and uncompromising integrity in the face of potential mass instability and a country where lots of people will still look at every negative aspect of a tumultuous process of change and feel it wasnt worth it (e.g., obamacare)
i greatly admire integrity in personal ambitions that dont affect others, but idealists have to accept that the leastbad politicking method so far seems to involve herding a lot of sheep away from reasons to fight within themselves and stop them from tearing away too many systems that people are accustomed to too quickly
its one instance where i believe slippery slope is not fallacious thinking: too much instability can beget much more much faster.
and the whole issue with trying to prematurely force more socialist systems, which in a vacuum i think are good, is that your citizenry needs to be sufficiently wealthy and principled and educated to handle it... lest the system fester with parasites
On July 06 2016 19:06 kapibara-san wrote: when your voter base is engaged in constant emotional antagonism with your opponents voter base, repeatedly implying theyre delusional and criminally complicit, do you
a. try to find ways to ameliorate and emotionally appeal through positivity and demonstrate that you can assuage some concerns of your opponents'?
or b. double down and join your own voter base because you're on The Right Side of History and a Revolutionary?
one of these shows savvy
as for your point about bernie becoming hillary's cheney, he kind of poisoned the well himself by annoying the shit out of the democratic establishment by not properly rolling over
No, you misunderstood, I said Hillary be Bernie's Cheney. She could let Bernie fail with his overly ambitious goals and then tell him what can actually pass. In that way they could check each others shortcomings. As it's heading now, Hillary would go unchecked as the only people left would be those who fell in line already. At minimum it should be clear for those who want progressive legislation to be signed by the next president that without someone like Bernie in the room (and she won't have that without Bernie at the top) it's going to be further to the right than it would be otherwise.
Perhaps it would be easier to understand her as Obama's Biden for some folks, he's credited with doing pretty much all of the arm twisting to get the more idealistic things Obama wanted. Though if we actually look, that isn't exactly the case.
EDIT: I'd just add that if Hillary wins, her and her supporters will be vindicated in thinking they can ignore the complaints, if Hillary loses, you can bet the Democrats wont ignore/belittle the progressive wing next cycle.
i just dont think this next 4 years is a good time to push for an executive office thats farther left than clinton
see my last paragraph edited into my previous post
im probably as progressive as you in my utopian dreams, im just much more opportunistic and wary of botching attempts
in a sense, i dont think the american people deserve a functional socialist system... theyre certainly not capable of handling its maintenance
cant shake the sense that america is way more likely to collapse or become even more of a warhawk than successfully implement socialism
im kinda into balkanizing the us by embracing states rights more, because certain wealthy states might be able to progress faster... but balkanization is dangerous as fuck
On July 06 2016 19:41 kapibara-san wrote: i just dont think this next 4 years is a good time to push for an executive office thats farther left than clinton
see my last paragraph edited into my previous post
im probably as progressive as you in my utopian dreams, im just much more opportunistic and wary of botching attempts
The reality is that in many ways it's not even further left, just into the 21st century in a "first world" country. Many of us fear complacency more than rashness, particularly as these changes are seen as long overdue as they are. There really isn't much that Bernie is advocating that isn't already supported by a majority of Americans anyway though.
What was really being described by the "Bernie won't get anything done" arguments was an acceptance without admission that our government doesn't act on the will of the people but on the will of it's elite sponsors.
Many of us simply disagree that finding a candidate with sponsors that have more amiable goals as progress, many of us think it's a step backwards for a similar reason as you suggest for your fears. That it's easier to change things slowly, we just see which direction it's going differently.
I see Hillary's push to remove the restrictions on lobbyists donating to the DNC as an attempt to make one of those slow shifts rightward (toward the corporate wing), not as a more reasonable attempt at removing lobbyist influence in the DNC than Bernie's (considering the restrictions preceded Bernie running). I honestly don't see the counterargument as making any sense as I've seen it.
Bottom line being, some of the most important things for someone who would be some transitional figure, would be to engage more people and better inform those who are engaged, two things Hillary did little of or actively acted against. Which in my view, disqualifies her as holding any potential as a transitional figure.
again, dont think these next 4 years are the time to transition.
theres so much tension on every front that people will be way too quick to label inevitable setbacks as failures of the whole project
and fundamentally, its much harder to improve a system than it is to fuck it up, and i dont want a bare majority of people (overwhelmingly of a similar kind of people) to try to steer the ship when we have another 50% threatening to sabotage the whole thing
majority is 50%... thats not... enough... especially when the other 50% arent just indifferent, but actively opposed and contemptuous of such plans (also contains more of the elite who like to protect their wealth who the "progressive left" are trying to strongarm via democracy as opposed to properly appealing to them... not that i think either approach would work at this point)
the way bernie supporters insist and take for granted that his policies specifically have majority support (even if some of those supporters dont seem to realize it... condescending much?) and the way that they seem to take for granted that the elite will roll over rather than fight back or flee... i cant see it as anything more than optimistic delusions
anyway, im going to disengage here because i get the sense im not good enough at writing to vividly illustrate how/why think your idea of how progress happens is flawed. have a good one.
Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
One other thing to consider: How much wrongdoing was found in these tons and tons of emails? If she was shady, we'd have found tons of shit in all these emails. If anything, this treasure of emails acted as a somewhat rigorous vetting process.
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Trump has released a campaign ad on Hillary's statements, not the prosecution recommendation: did Hillary knowingly lie to the press and American people at the outset?
If Loretta referred this to a grand jury as she ought, they'd indict.
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Don't worry there is no systemic problem with the US police force /sarcasm
On July 06 2016 22:31 Mohdoo wrote: One other thing to consider: How much wrongdoing was found in these tons and tons of emails? If she was shady, we'd have found tons of shit in all these emails. If anything, this treasure of emails acted as a somewhat rigorous vetting process.
im under the impression that shady shit wouldn't be released or discussed because the end result would have had to ended the same way regardless of the evidence: Hillary cannot be indicted at this stage in an election with no popular alternatives. This is just my conspiracy theory though given how scathing the fbi director was and yet ending with no indictment
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Don't worry there is no systemic problem with the US police force /sarcasm
That looked like some sort of execution. This is a result of police departments investigating themselves, the fbi needs to get involved in this case IMO
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Don't worry there is no systemic problem with the US police force /sarcasm
The department already confiscated the video from the person who took it. I have never been more convinced that the police cannot police themselves in any way. We need independent agencies to do it and protect us from them. And we need to change the rules for the use of lethal force. Other nations have figured this shit out.
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Don't worry there is no systemic problem with the US police force /sarcasm
The department already confiscated the video from the person who took it. I have never been more convinced that the police cannot police themselves in any way. We need independent agencies to do it and protect us from them. And we need to change the rules for the use of lethal force. Other nations have figured this shit out.
100% agree with this, the problem being a lot of people in Congress don't give two fucks. Why? Cause they've never encountered this issue in their personal life. Now we, as a huge population, we easily have the voice to get this solution moving, but it still seems that congress after the two full years of non stop bitching about police, nothing has yet to change.
On July 06 2016 22:14 Plansix wrote: Fair warning to folks, that Alton Sterling video is incredibly disturbing and making the rounds on the internet. I am sure some folks here won’t be bothered but if you think it might bother, I would skip it.
This is even worse than Eric Garner's execution... Unarmed and lying down on the ground. Seriously, how is it even possible to kill a guy like that?
Don't worry there is no systemic problem with the US police force /sarcasm
That looked like some sort of execution. This is a result of police departments investigating themselves, the fbi needs to get involved in this case IMO
So they can say they found the problem, but here's a shitty solution? lol...
On July 06 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote: it looks like we have entered the bargaining stage of grief
i for one think thats progress
Is that referencing something or just a random thought fart?
Its definitely referencing the anti-Hillary crowd
Do all the lies really not bother any of you?
Politicians being flexible is kind of part of the job. Its kind of like wondering why cops aren't pacifists. But no, for the most part, politicians are not where my moral compass is set to. Politicians are representatives to enable and prevent laws and regulations that best helps me as a person live my day to day lives.
Here's a short list of terrible things about Bernie:
15 Trillion in addition to an economy still recovering is bad. Ignoring genocide just because its brown people is bad. Saying your anti-war unless they build warplanes in your state is bad.
Bernie Sanders, as a politician, is bad.
The main people agreeing with Bernie supporters are conservatives. Think about that for one moment. Think about the fact that the GOP and Bernie supporters are getting excited over the same things and are attacking the DNC for the same things over and over. Bernie has been one of the worse things to happen to progressive politics on all fronts. Fiscally, morally, and politically.
Why? Because (just like the GOP) Bernie supporters act like politicians should be people who enforce and create laws to decree how we should morally act with each other. It is fundamentalism in nature, even if there is no religion behind it. Its moralism pretending to be above it all when in reality they spend all their energy enacting the same plans of attacks and vitriolic spewing that the Tea Party has been doing for 10+ years now.
So you know why people like Hilary? Because she's the lesser of two evils in this primary. Because she's the only actual democrat in this primary. Because she is the only one who will do what it takes and twist every rule to ensure democratic victories. Because she's not a moralist. Because she cares more about what her constituents want more than what her own moral opinions want. Because her goal is to represent the party, not pretend that she's above it all.
She's been investigated for Bengazi for nearly a decade, and after a decade of investigation they STILL don't have anything on her. Spend a decade digging into ANYONE'S past and you'll find something to indict them with. But not her. Why? Because she's smart and she knows how to play the game. When I want to pick who I want to lead the main superpower of the planet--I go for who I think is smart and capable, not the one who simply tries to yell the loudest.
EPT
