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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On June 16 2016 01:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:14 IgnE wrote:On June 16 2016 01:12 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:06 IgnE wrote:On June 15 2016 23:22 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2016 23:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On June 15 2016 23:16 SolaR- wrote:On June 15 2016 23:09 zlefin wrote:
I wouldn't say liberals call atheists asshole; certain anti-theists yes; but in most cases there you cna establish that the guys really are jerks about it.
agree on the race points; iirc arabs are classified as white under US census standards, as is north africa.
though about your claim on islam oppression; that's mostly a recent development. There was a large time period where islam was markedly less oppressive than christianity. I don't have the exact dates, but it covers much of the ottoman empire period, and I think some of the period before that, not sure though. I can't say how much of that is due to the ottomans as opposed to islam generally; though ottomans were the heads of islam during their time. That is why I said one of the most. I am well aware of Christianity's terrible history. I would say prior to the modern era, Catholicism takes the cake. However, i am almost sure in areas such as Saudi Arabia, it has been oppressive there for a long time. The ottoman turks are a bit different and have always been a bit more open mindend, probably because their history and influence of multiple cultures. I'm getting a bit of the "wow religion sucks and atheism is superior" vibe, here.  My favorite part about the super internet atheists is that the confidence they have that their views are these new, enlighten insight on the true nature of religion. Expect people have been having this debate ever since the enlightenment. None of this shit is new or mildly original. and yet we still have true believers . . . did the enlightenment reach mecca? how disappointed would you be if your child converted to islam and was very serious about his/her faith? total submission to anything scares me. I wouldn't be disappointed in my child if they decided to convert to any religion. I dont fear religion. please, i think you are lying. imagine your daughter comes home in a burkha with a serious muslim man and starts making comments about your heathen american lifestyle at thanksgiving. I am Christian. I don’t fear other religions. I fear people and their actions. What you are talking is the exact same as if they joined a super Christian cult and decided to live in a compound in some rural state. I would not support that because I believe it is unhealthy and reclusive Christian compounds have a bad history. But with the context you provide of a child joining devout US Muslim community, I would have no problem.
Where have i heard that argument before? Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Religion would be the gun in this situation
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On June 16 2016 01:32 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 16 2016 01:25 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of the alt-right, Twitter suspended Milo. I suspect that will bite them in the ass. Are there specific reasons why? It's hard to just say "Well, this guy's just an all-around inflammatory douchebag who trolls people" and leave it at that, although to be fair, Twitter can presumably ban any account they want (much like TL). Think he just said mean things about Islam.
It is impossible to tell with him. He loved posting other un-edacted tweets from people he disagreed with. Twitter has said can been harassment if you have a big enough follower base and the other person is not also a public figure. He has been warned about doing it before, so I would put my money on doing it one too many times.
And to be clear, these are tweets not directed at or related to him.
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On June 16 2016 01:32 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:14 IgnE wrote:On June 16 2016 01:12 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:06 IgnE wrote:On June 15 2016 23:22 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2016 23:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On June 15 2016 23:16 SolaR- wrote:On June 15 2016 23:09 zlefin wrote:
I wouldn't say liberals call atheists asshole; certain anti-theists yes; but in most cases there you cna establish that the guys really are jerks about it.
agree on the race points; iirc arabs are classified as white under US census standards, as is north africa.
though about your claim on islam oppression; that's mostly a recent development. There was a large time period where islam was markedly less oppressive than christianity. I don't have the exact dates, but it covers much of the ottoman empire period, and I think some of the period before that, not sure though. I can't say how much of that is due to the ottomans as opposed to islam generally; though ottomans were the heads of islam during their time. That is why I said one of the most. I am well aware of Christianity's terrible history. I would say prior to the modern era, Catholicism takes the cake. However, i am almost sure in areas such as Saudi Arabia, it has been oppressive there for a long time. The ottoman turks are a bit different and have always been a bit more open mindend, probably because their history and influence of multiple cultures. I'm getting a bit of the "wow religion sucks and atheism is superior" vibe, here. My favorite part about the super internet atheists is that the confidence they have that their views are these new, enlighten insight on the true nature of religion. Expect people have been having this debate ever since the enlightenment. None of this shit is new or mildly original. and yet we still have true believers . . . did the enlightenment reach mecca? how disappointed would you be if your child converted to islam and was very serious about his/her faith? total submission to anything scares me. I wouldn't be disappointed in my child if they decided to convert to any religion. I dont fear religion. please, i think you are lying. imagine your daughter comes home in a burkha with a serious muslim man and starts making comments about your heathen american lifestyle at thanksgiving. I am Christian. I don’t fear other religions. I fear people and their actions. What you are talking is the exact same as if they joined a super Christian cult and decided to live in a compound in some rural state. I would not support that because I believe it is unhealthy and reclusive Christian compounds have a bad history. But with the context you provide of a child joining devout US Muslim community, I would have no problem. yeah it is the exact same as if they converted to become "super christian" but you've stretched it out a bit into "cult". do you think all burkha wearers are members of an islamic cult?
I always wonder if a woman is wearing the burkha willingly. But since I know nothing beyond that first impression, I don’t assume they are in a cult or being repressed by other members of their religion. But it is in the back of my mind. I believe there are large numbers of women who would love to not wear burkhas, but that is not related to the question you asked. If my fictional daughters decided to get into a relationship with someone who insisted she wear a burkha, I would be able to interact with her boyfriend and make my judgment based on those interactions. The burkha would not be the sole piece of information I would have.
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So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell?
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On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell?
Or what if he suggested that her cliterous needed to be removed due to religious reasons before getting married. Your daughter who is infatuated with her lover reluctantly agrees.
Do you really want that religion/culture having any influence within american society? Fact is, if you are consistent with your belief system, islam should be just as supressed as white supremacists. While they both come to their ideas in different ways, they still hold them same oppressive views.
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On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell?
This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of?
Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you?
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On June 16 2016 01:10 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 23:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 15 2016 23:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
Ignoring that the vast majority of violence in the US is perpetrated by US nationals and doing pretty much diddly squat about it. Wonder how long blaming outsiders will be effective... I would argue that white supremacists and right wing christians are vastly dangerous on US soil than islamists. For a start, they kill more or less the same amount of people (9/11 excluded) and because they actually have a chance to push and implement their political agenda which is not the case for islamists. And that's a very significant difference. And there are more people who believe in their crazy ideas than people calling for sharia law. But I haven't seen Trump calling for a ban on christianity. In a democracy, we fight ideas with ideas. If some citizens have stupid ideas, well you fight them through education and political discussion, whether they are right wing christians or islamists. And as long as they respect the law (an immense majority of both fundamentalist christians and islamists do), whether they think it's a great idea to torture people, oppose interracial marriage or stone women who had sex outside marriage, you can have faith that american democracy will be stronger than their medieval opinions. In any case, banning a billion people from entering the country solely based on the fact that some of them have bad ideas is the most stupid suggestion and the biggest insult to democracy ever uttered in a presidential campaign. That's exactly the opposite of what America stands for. this is why the american imperialism of hillary is actually the best option for the true culture warrior compared to the isolationist reactionary trump. do you want total victory or do you want to close your eyes and stop up your ears and hope the muslims disappear on their own?
Pretty much liberal internationalism. Most of you probably know more about it than I do.
On June 16 2016 01:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 00:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Maybe it's my lack of sleep and being a little overworked, but I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. Presuming the former, there's plenty of racists and bigots who run and get elected to office for whatever reason. Nope, I'm dead serious. To the extent that white supremacists are in office, they are completely in the closet. They can't openly promote their beliefs. They have no media allies. They are basically islands unto themselves, and have been rendered irrelevant over the past generation or two. They are little more than boogiemen to the left.
White supremacists have been losing sway, yes. But bigotry of all sorts is alive and well.
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On June 16 2016 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
White supremacists have been losing sway, yes. But bigotry of all sorts is alive and well.
Here's my point: racism is so dead in the US that the left has had to go out of its ways to create new, overly-expansive definitions of racism to bitch about lest they lose all purpose in life.
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On June 16 2016 01:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell? This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of? Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you?
Better question is. Do you think that your beliefs should not be questioned? Any belief should be subject to criticism or skepticism. Stop referring to me as an "internet atheist". What does that even mean? You think i post out on internet forums all day teaming up with my fellow atheists while we criticize religion meanwhile thinking we are intellectually superior? This is the only forum in which i post in, and spend very little time on the internet or social media elsewhere.
Are you suggesting i supress my view or my right to question your views?
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On June 16 2016 02:01 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:47 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell? This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of? Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you? Better question is. Do you think that your beliefs should not be questioned? Any belief should be subject to criticism or skepticism. Stop referring to me as an "internet atheist". What does that even mean? You think i post out on internet forums all day teaming up with my fellow atheists while we criticize religion meanwhile thinking we are intellectually superior? This is the only forum in which i post in, and spend very little time on the internet or social media elsewhere. Are you suggesting i supress my view or my right to question your views?
The question is not whether someones beliefs should be questioned, but whether it is your job to question everyones beliefs. I say this as a person that does not have any religious beliefs.
Do you know how annoying militant vegetarians can be? It is the same for militant atheists. Just relax a bit, have your beliefs, and let others have their own. As long as they are not hurting anyone, does it really need to be that important to you that they believe the exact same thing as you do?
It is not your job to enlighten everyone else. Noone likes to be preached to, and that includes being preached to about the virtues of atheism, the virtues of veganism or anything else. Do your things. Let others do their things.
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I can't believe I wake up today and Milo Yiannopoulos is banned again for twitter, for nothing.
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On June 16 2016 02:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 02:01 SolaR- wrote:On June 16 2016 01:47 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell? This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of? Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you? Better question is. Do you think that your beliefs should not be questioned? Any belief should be subject to criticism or skepticism. Stop referring to me as an "internet atheist". What does that even mean? You think i post out on internet forums all day teaming up with my fellow atheists while we criticize religion meanwhile thinking we are intellectually superior? This is the only forum in which i post in, and spend very little time on the internet or social media elsewhere. Are you suggesting i supress my view or my right to question your views? The question is not whether someones beliefs should be questioned, but whether it is your job to question everyones beliefs. I say this as a person that does not have any religious beliefs. Do you know how annoying militant vegetarians can be? It is the same for militant atheists. Just relax a bit, have your beliefs, and let others have their own. As long as they are not hurting anyone, does it really need to be that important to you that they believe the exact same thing as you do? It is not your job to enlighten everyone else. Noone likes to be preached to, and that includes being preached to about the virtues of atheism, the virtues of veganism or anything else. Do your things. Let others do their things.
I agree that people can believe whatever they want, however i also believe I should be able to say anything i want about those beliefs. I am not preaching, merely questioning and voicing my opinion. Pretty much every other topic goes the same way, but when religion all of sudden gets introduced, all discussion is stifled or forbidden.
Seems hypocritical because there is a lot of anti-trump preaching in this thread, but i see no quarrel there..
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Yes, discussions about religion shouldn’t be confined to demanding that the religions person explain the worst aspects of human behavior as it relates to religion. That isn’t even a discussion, to be honest. More like a bombardment of questions.
And the comparison to militant vegetarians is on point. No one enjoys being around those people.
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On June 16 2016 02:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 02:01 SolaR- wrote:On June 16 2016 01:47 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell? This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of? Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you? Better question is. Do you think that your beliefs should not be questioned? Any belief should be subject to criticism or skepticism. Stop referring to me as an "internet atheist". What does that even mean? You think i post out on internet forums all day teaming up with my fellow atheists while we criticize religion meanwhile thinking we are intellectually superior? This is the only forum in which i post in, and spend very little time on the internet or social media elsewhere. Are you suggesting i supress my view or my right to question your views? The question is not whether someones beliefs should be questioned, but whether it is your job to question everyones beliefs. I say this as a person that does not have any religious beliefs. Do you know how annoying militant vegetarians can be? It is the same for militant atheists. Just relax a bit, have your beliefs, and let others have their own. As long as they are not hurting anyone, does it really need to be that important to you that they believe the exact same thing as you do? It is not your job to enlighten everyone else. Noone likes to be preached to, and that includes being preached to about the virtues of atheism, the virtues of veganism or anything else. Do your things. Let others do their things.
I'm not so sure that the questioning is meant to push Plansix from Christianity to atheism so much as it is to question Plansix's serial equivalence of Christianity and Islam.
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On June 16 2016 01:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
White supremacists have been losing sway, yes. But bigotry of all sorts is alive and well. Here's my point: racism is so dead in the US that the left has had to go out of its ways to create new, overly-expansive definitions of racism to bitch about lest they lose all purpose in life.
It's pretty remarkable how you continue to dishonestly deny the continued existence of racism at the systemic level in the United States, even though you've been confronted with overwhelming evidence over the years in this very forum proving that African Americans (among others) are still not treated the same, and do not have the same opportunities, as white people, even when controlling for the usual factors (level of income, etc.). You're not interested in reality, only in your demonstrably false narrative according to which the "PC culture", and the left more broadly, are the root of everything wrong with America today.
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On June 16 2016 01:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
White supremacists have been losing sway, yes. But bigotry of all sorts is alive and well. Here's my point: racism is so dead in the US that the left has had to go out of its ways to create new, overly-expansive definitions of racism to bitch about lest they lose all purpose in life.
Nope. The new definition was so to show that just because you aren't in your yard burning a cross with a pillow case on your head doesn't mean what you do/say isn't racist.
As for the KKK specifically they are all over police departments, many as high as police chief. Probably doesn't mean anything in your life, but people who aren't white still find police chiefs being members of the KKK a HUGE problem, not one that needs to be exaggerated to give a reason to complain about racism. Your suggestion is absurd.
racism is so dead in the US
I just had to put that again so people could see how ridiculously absurd it is.
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On June 16 2016 01:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
White supremacists have been losing sway, yes. But bigotry of all sorts is alive and well. Here's my point: racism is so dead in the US that the left has had to go out of its ways to create new, overly-expansive definitions of racism to bitch about lest they lose all purpose in life.
Nah. Look, I agree that elements of the left take PC too far and I hate how some civil rights organizations (some of which have done great work in the past) are basically trawling for opportunities to play the race card, but there's plenty of problems left to address. And addressing those problems is hard. You're painting the left with a very broad brush. To me people like you who say racism is dead, that the left is just making shit up, and that we're all one and the same are as much part of the problem as the extreme left PC crowd.
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This all depends how racism is defined. The topic of conversation was white supremacists, neo-nazis and the like. In that regard, i would say racism is almost if not all dead.
GH, what you are arguing for, I can agree with certain aspects. Let me stress certain. While i do agree with some views on systemic racism, i also think some aspects have been over dramaticized by the left, and some people (mostly white college kids) have lost grip with reality.
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On June 16 2016 02:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 02:11 Simberto wrote:On June 16 2016 02:01 SolaR- wrote:On June 16 2016 01:47 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2016 01:41 IgnE wrote:
So you are fine with a daughter who enthusiastically wears it and says you are going to hell? This has to be one of the most disingenuous discussions I have engaged with in a while. When did I fucking say that? Do you have reading comprehension issues I should be aware of? Edit: I'm not playing 20 questions about religion just because two internet atheists found someone to debate. Seriously, do you people think anyone who believes in religion has to justify their beliefs to you? Better question is. Do you think that your beliefs should not be questioned? Any belief should be subject to criticism or skepticism. Stop referring to me as an "internet atheist". What does that even mean? You think i post out on internet forums all day teaming up with my fellow atheists while we criticize religion meanwhile thinking we are intellectually superior? This is the only forum in which i post in, and spend very little time on the internet or social media elsewhere. Are you suggesting i supress my view or my right to question your views? The question is not whether someones beliefs should be questioned, but whether it is your job to question everyones beliefs. I say this as a person that does not have any religious beliefs. Do you know how annoying militant vegetarians can be? It is the same for militant atheists. Just relax a bit, have your beliefs, and let others have their own. As long as they are not hurting anyone, does it really need to be that important to you that they believe the exact same thing as you do? It is not your job to enlighten everyone else. Noone likes to be preached to, and that includes being preached to about the virtues of atheism, the virtues of veganism or anything else. Do your things. Let others do their things. I'm not so sure that the questioning is meant to push Plansix from Christianity to atheism so much as it is to question Plansix's serial equivalence of Christianity and Islam.
Not all of us paint the world with the broad brush you employ.
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