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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On June 09 2016 02:20 GGTeMpLaR wrote: If you want to pay over a hundred billion dollars in taxes on welfare for illegal immigrants every year, go for it. Immigrants (both legal and illegal) overall have a net positive impact on government finances. Also, Lord Tolkien is right on the impact of a wall. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On June 09 2016 04:56 SK.Testie wrote: You can't have a chance at a happy life in Mexico? Sounds like those industrious workers should stay there and work on a way to Make Mexico Great Again. You can. There's a reason why the net flow of undocumented migrants from Mexico has been in reverse (more people leaving to return to Mexico than come into the United States), and has been so for the past few years. Part of this is the long-term effects of NAFTA finally kicking in: when it was first signed, it caused several major shocks in the Mexican economy that displaced a large number of workers (most notably in the agricultural sector: Mexican corn farmers couldn't compete with subsidized US corn), which at the time exacerbated the issue. The labor theory behind the migration notes that while development and investment in Mexico from NAFTA will ultimately reverse and halt the flow in the long term, in the short term, the investment and development in urban Mexcian cities was insufficient to fully cope with the shocks which lead to a temporary increase in undocumented migration, More broadly, it was also a response to the changing labor market in the United States and the inadequacies of the US immigration system to cope. More specifically, the US immigration system, with quotas and a focus on high skill labor, neglected the needs of the "low" skill labor market, as Americans increasingly turned away from jobs in agriculture and construction, or other "dirty, demeaning, or dangerous" jobs. Ironically, many of these jobs are seasonal, and while in earlier decades migrants would come in to do those jobs and then return to their home country, increasing border security forces them to stay within the United States. The failure to understand this and open up new temp-worker visas, or other forms of means of addressing the shortage of labor for low-skill, labor intensive jobs like agriculture or seasonal work, is part of why we are in the predicament we are in today. This is also part of why undocumented migrants don't actually depress wages: the industries they work in are ones which the domestic labor force has largely snubbed and abandoned, so the effect on real wages is negligible, or even positive. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
On June 09 2016 04:54 ShoCkeyy wrote: So, a bit on immigration. My father used to be a supervisor for U.S. Customs and Immigration for all of the state in FL a while back. A wall won't stop anything, building a wall is a huge waste of resources. It will definitely stop people from crossing the border through normal means, walking, but it won't stop people from paying cartel to cross underneath, in tunnels they build specifically for coming across illegally. It won't stop people from coming in boats on areas that aren't well heavily guarded (huge problem in FL with the illegal immigrants we receive). It won't stop for people that paid huge sums for fake[real, but stolen and fixed] identifications. If you really want to control the border, tougher security - invest in the drones, in the extra man power, don't build a fucking wall. Either way, I understand the illegal situation, but what can we really do, it's always going to continue to happen. It's really a fine line to walk, because one, we're all human and everyone should have a chance at living a "happy" life. Two, illegal people in the country do cause some issues. But then you have these issues rise up to the "top" where there are people that sit there, and say they understand but really don't. Well the thing is, a wall is the most efficient way to do it. Both with costs and results. Drones and tech,that also costs a ton of money. Need train staff to operate it and then in the end you still need guys on the ground to actually stop it. A wall also has the added bonus of being a symbol, It is visible and it marks a clear border. Humanity has a long history of building walls when it comes to protecting borders. Another solution to illegal immigration is to stop making it illegal,and I am quiet confident that the usa will slowly go that route. Just small steps at a time, so to not risk a populist candidate to actually win the election. And then in 20-30 years it will all be said and done. | ||
KwarK
United States42638 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:18 pmh wrote: Well the thing is, a wall is the most efficient way to do it. Both with costs and results. Drones and tech,that also costs a ton of money. Need train staff to operate it and then in the end you still need guys on the ground to actually stop it. A wall also has the added bonus of being a symbol, It is visible and it marks a clear border. Humanity has a long history of building walls when it comes to protecting borders. Another solution to illegal immigration is to stop making it illegal,and I am quiet confident that the usa will slowly go that route. Just small steps at a time, so to not risk a populist candidate to actually win the election. And then in 20-30 years it will all be said and done. I'm confused. How does the wall stop people who disembark planes in airports and then overstay visas? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
my top option for making it all legal is to look at how much it costs to pay smugglers to get you in illegally, then charge about that much (maybe a little more) as a fee to get in legally. Since they can clearly afford it since they paid the smugglers that amount. and it's worth a mild premium to be in legally. Then use the money from those fees to benefit citizens and compensate for any wage depression effects. The fee would of course vary based on country of origin, as long range smugglers change more; iirc the rates for people from china (to be smuggled in) can be ~50k; and at that price it seems worthwhile to just charge it as a fee and use it to help ourselves. that's just IF we choose to make immigration much more legal, that seems like a promising way to go. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
That movie looks spot on right now. That is the exact sort of dumb plan we would come up with to keep Godzilla out over dope giant robots. On June 09 2016 05:23 KwarK wrote: I'm confused. How does the wall stop people who disembark planes in airports and then overstay visas? Whoa, there slow down Kwark. You can’t break their minds with the concept that most illegal immigrants don’t cross the border illegally. | ||
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:18 pmh wrote: A wall also has the added bonus of being a symbol, It is visible and it marks a clear border. Humanity has a long history of building walls when it comes to protecting borders. "Hadrian’s Wall, as we call it, stretched for more than 70 miles, right across the island from one coast to the other. Its construction was an enormous investment of military man-hours – but it is surprisingly hard to know what exactly it was for. The old idea that it was a defensive structure to keep the ‘barbarians’ out is unconvincing. It is true that the one ancient writer to mention its construction – an anonymous biographer and fantasist writing at the end of the fourth century CE (though for some unknown reason he pretends to be writing a century earlier) – refers to Hadrian ‘separating’ Romans and barbarians. But it could hardly have deterred any reasonably spirited and well-organised enemies who were keen to scale it, especially as much of it was built only of turf, unlike the solid stone sections that star in most photographs. Without a walkway along the top, it was not even well designed for surveillance and patrol purposes. But as a customs barrier, which is one recent suggestion, or as an attempt to control the movement of people more generally it seems a more hefty construction than was necessary. What it asserts is Roman power over the landscape while also hinting at a sense of ending. It may be no coincidence that other, rather less dramatic walls, banks and fortifications were developed in other frontier zones at roughly the same period, as if to suggest that the boundaries of Roman power were beginning to take a more physical form." (Mary Beard, SPQR) | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On June 09 2016 04:41 Lord Tolkien wrote: If you want the gist of it, increasing border security and marginally hampering the ability to cross "the border" does little to diminish the actual systemic factors and motivations for undocumented migration. If people want to get into a country, the cost of working around known, static border security is trivial. The pithy "11 foot ladder to a 10 foot wall" issue. Second, is that by increasingly securitizing the border, it empowers the organizations specialized in crossing the border illegally, as migrants looking to cross the border have no choice but to turn towards the cartels and other border running organizations, whom have incredibly complex and sophisticated methods for crossing the border, and opens up undocumented migrants to exploitation by these organizations as well as empowers these organizations in conducting their operations. This is one of the best posts I've seen here. Even though I disagree with your conclusions, I have to give you credit on keeping it purely professional and classy without insulting the opposition and actually making me reconsider my position through well-reasoned points. I'd agree with the bold portion that it doesn't treat the motivations, however I think you have to concede that by increasing the difficult in doing a task, you decrease the number of people willing to do that task, as is just the case for anything. People will still have the same systematic motivations for wanting to illegally cross the border, but the difficulty of which they can do so will both disincentivize individuals from trying so but also increase the likely hood of attempts at crossing anyways of failing. I hadn't considered your point of how it might empower organizations due to the complex and sophisticated methods which would be required to overcome the more difficult barrier in crossing. It is a true point I can't argue it. You're right to conclude in a sense that decreasing supply increases demand and puts it in the power of the trafficking organizations. I believe that requiring more complicated and sophisticated measures will decrease the frequency of 'metaphorical sales' so to speak, so while it empowers them in their ability to be in higher demand, it also takes away power from their ability to do it as easily and frequently as they were previously able to, and with a much higher risk-cost ratio associated with their endeavors. I would concede that it might in a sense give them absolute monopoly over border crossing but I think it would be at great cost to the effectiveness of 'business' so to speak such that it would cause more harm than good to the operation and profitability of such organizations. It's certainly a more complex issue than at first glance but I still believe it would provide an absolute net decrease in illegal immigration by significant amounts and decrease the profitability of human and drug trafficking across the border. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15683 Posts
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:37 Mohdoo wrote: I can't get over this Politico article. I feel absolutely blessed to have this kind of insight into a giant, revolutionary campaign. This is like when Starcraft 2 was announced lol. The political junky in me is just eating this up. You should read Timothy Crouse's The Boys on The Bus if you haven't already, it's great. | ||
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Talaris
Switzerland753 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:23 KwarK wrote: I'm confused. How does the wall stop people who disembark planes in airports and then overstay visas? I don't know how it works, but it definitely works ! And Trump will make it happen ! Look at the great chinese wall - I don't hear China complaining or having a problem with Mexicans ! | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:44 Talaris wrote: I don't know how it works, but it definitely works ! And Trump will make it happen ! Look at the great chinese wall - I don't hear China complaining or having a problem with Mexicans ! stats show something else if you look at other walls no? | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:04 kwizach wrote: Immigrants (both legal and illegal) overall have a net positive impact on government finances. Also, Lord Tolkien is right on the impact of a wall. Boring ass argument. The discussion on immigration is null, boring, and shows the wild stupidity of modern politics. And this thread is no exception, full of doublethink. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:48 CorsairHero wrote: stats show something else if you look at other walls no? That stats show that people go around the wall. In the EU that is other countries, so problem solved sort of. So in the US, the wall would just export the problem to non-border states. And do little to stop illegal immigration because they cross the border legally. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
Many settlements in the middle ages had walls around them,some of which you can still see and visit today. And then there is off course the castle, which is basicly a house with a big wall around it. Maybe its the high ground advantage when standing on the wall and fighting people trying to climb it with ladders and siege towers,It also shiels from incoming projectiles a bit.There are probably a lot of things to it but it must have been at least somewhat succesfull as wall building is so wide spread. My expectations for trump have lowerd dramatically in the past 2 weeks. Its difficult to point exactly where it went wrong. Partially the republican establishment is to blame. They do not unite behind trump,contrary to what I did expect. They endorse him or say they will go with him,but then the next day the media are full of republicans criticizing trump again for something he said. They might be right in their criticism but that's not a way to win the election off course. It feels like most of them just don't want to go for it. And you have to go for it 100%, not this "ya we support trump,but..." You either support him and go with him or you don't, the current approach of the republican establishment will lead to a certain defeat in November but maybe for some of them that is the best outcome. Still I wonder what they have planned for the next elections. Maybe trump himself is also to blame.he is a bit late with the pivot to a more moderate tone and the media all have their eyes on him waiting to make a big story about the next political incorrect thing he says. I hope he makes a comeback and become as strong as he was in the weak leading up to his presumptive nomination,just to make the November elections a thing to watch. But somehow I do not have much hope for that. The media will keep hammering him and the republican party does not support him for 100%. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:51 WhiteDog wrote: Boring ass argument. The discussion on immigration is null, boring, and shows the wild stupidity of modern politics. Thanks for that fantastic insight. | ||
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:54 pmh wrote: That's an interesting story. I have also been puzzled by how effective walls have been through out history. Many settlements in the middle ages had walls around them,some of which you can still see and visit today. And then there is off course the castle, which is basicly a house with a big wall around it. Maybe its the high ground advantage when standing on the wall and fighting people trying to climb it with ladders and siege towers,It also shiels from incoming projectiles a bit.There are probably a lot of things to it but it must have been at least somewhat succesfull as wall building is so wide spread. Never think something is effective just because it is widespread. Institutional inertia accounts for a lot of things  But yeah walls are kind of fascinating. Here, have another story. The scene was the same in China: one town on the Yang-tse-Kiang „has a wall ten miles in circumference, which encloses hills, mountains and plains uninhabited because the town has few houses and its inhabitants prefer to live in the very extensive suburbs“. In the same year, 1696, the upper part of the capital of Kiang-Si sheltered „many fields and gardens, but few inhabitants“. The West had long ensured security at a low cost by a moat and a perpendicular wall. This did little to interfere with urban expansion – much less than is usually thought. When the town needed more space the walls were moved like theatre sets – in Ghent, Florence, and Strasbourg, for example – and as many times as was required. Walls were made-to-measure corsets. Towns grew and made themselves new ones. [...] But constructed, or reconstructed, walls, continued to encircle towns and to define them. They were boundaries, frontiers, as well as protection. The towns drove the bulk of their artisanal trades, particularly their heavy industries, to the periphery, so much that the wall was an economic and social dividing line as well. As the town grew it generally annexed some of its suburbs and transformed them, pushing activities foreign to city life a little farther away. That is why Western towns, which grew up in such a haphazard way, little by little, have such complicated street-plans. Their winding streets and unexpected turnings are quite unlike the pattern of the Roman town, which still survives in a few cities descended from the classical period: Turin, Cologne, Koblenz, Ratisbon. But the Renaissance marked the first development of geometric plans in chessboard pattern or concentric circles. This was the spirit in which the widespread urban development in the West remodelled squares and rebuilt districts acquired from the suburbs. They set down their grid-plans alongside the tortuous streets of the medieval town-centres. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
You're welcome, I just add to between one guy that believe migrants are leeching the non existant american welfare, when they're for the most part very hard workers that the rich/inequalities force into migration and abuse of, and one guy that believe in biased studies on the effect of migration on the economy. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On June 09 2016 06:07 WhiteDog wrote: You're welcome, I just add to between one guy that believe migrants are leeching the non existant american welfare, when they're for the most part very hard workers that the rich/inequalities force into migration and abuse of, and one guy that believe in biased studies on the effect of migration on the economy. He made a claim, I addressed it with two perfectly valid sources. Feel free to discuss their merits specifically if you'd like (if possible with different arguments than the very insightful "they're boring"). | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 09 2016 06:07 WhiteDog wrote: You're welcome, I just add to between one guy that believe migrants are leeching the non existant american welfare, when they're for the most part very hard workers that the rich/inequalities force into migration and abuse of, and one guy that believe in biased studies on the effect of migration on the economy. Are you saying that this issue is so politically charged that there is a ton of inaccurate, biased and misleading information on it from all sides that has the sole purpose of giving people a distorted view pro and cons of immigration? | ||
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