In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On June 06 2016 02:58 WhiteDog wrote: "Who cares about minorities, there's so few of 'em anyway right?" Sermokala is entirely right : if the 13 % black suffer from racism, it's a secondary problem. The real problem in the US is the poverty / inequality ; and mind you, poverty touch black too. Fighting racism and discrimination has become, for many, a way to justify, legitimize and manage inequalities and poverty, which is why even Harvard has diversity program and fight against "racism" and "discrimination".
I don't really see why there's a need to prioritise apart from using it as a rhetorical tactic to undermine people fighting for civil rights. You can fight for more material equality and against racism at the same time, nobody's stopping anybody. Especially because it's just as plausible that racism reinforces inequality in the same way inequality can reinforce racism. This isn't necessarily a one-way road.
It's the far-left fetish of framing every single issue as a matter of class warfare. It's the reverse thing of the far-right culture blame game.
On June 06 2016 00:50 biology]major wrote: systemic racism? what's holding black people back is their very own culture. No one seems to talk about it though. A culture that values being "hard" and banging as many "bitches" as possible over getting an education and being a productive member of society. I think this is one area where Obama could have made a shift in culture of minorities by emphasizing the value of education, hard work and to escape difficult environments. Now am I saying all black believe these things? No. However it's pretty hard to escape that culture when most role models they have esp from music industry are shoving these values down their throat. Its a detrimental culture, and they will never advance to the level of the rest of the population without abandoning parts of it.
You're saying gang culture is holding black people back, but it's totally erroneous to say that gang culture is black culture. In fact, African culture is pretty much as divorced from gang culture as you can actually get-you don't see many first-generation African immigrants in street gangs or rapping or calling people bitches. Even African American culture in general has very little to do with gangsters-unless you think all those Baptists go home and start singing about their glocks.
Gang culture touches all races/etnicities and the main reason it is more common in minorities is lower general S.E.S. resulting it being an extremely tempting and probably most practical route to power. The best way to deal with it is to improve overall S.E.S. and upwards mobility but also try to temper the maldistribution that results in it being possible for people to mistake gang culture for minority culture-because that mistake is a big part of why people are tempted by that culture and harms their upward mobility.
On June 06 2016 02:58 WhiteDog wrote: "Who cares about minorities, there's so few of 'em anyway right?" Sermokala is entirely right : if the 13 % black suffer from racism, it's a secondary problem. The real problem in the US is the poverty / inequality ; and mind you, poverty touch black too. Fighting racism and discrimination has become, for many, a way to justify, legitimize and manage inequalities and poverty, which is why even Harvard has diversity program and fight against "racism" and "discrimination".
I don't really see why there's a need to prioritise apart from using it as a rhetorical tactic to undermine people fighting for civil rights. You can fight for more material equality and against racism at the same time, nobody's stopping anybody. Especially because it's just as plausible that racism reinforces inequality in the same way inequality can reinforce racism. This isn't necessarily a one-way road.
It's not at all to minimize the fight for civil right, it's actually the legitimate evolution of this fight : Luther King wanted to fight poverty after the march for civil right. Let's just accept that the situation today in regard to systemic and institutionnal racism is different than in 1960. The problems that the black face nowadays are way less racial and way more class than before, and it's quite interesting to see that people who only talk about race nowadays are highly educated, oftentime from the middle class.
It's the far-left fetish of framing every single issue as a matter of class warfare. It's the reverse thing of the far-right culture blame game.
Crypto-fascist?So, you're a leftist who reads too much Walter Benjamin and Carl Schmitt? :D
I agree that class and race go hand in hand, and more emphasis ought to be put on issues of class, but I've seen people talk about it as if the entirety of racism could be reduced to issues of class (David Simon is guilty of this, for example) that I find troublesome.
I'm not a leftist, I actually believe the opposition between right and left to be a trap nowadays, an historical alliance between liberal "republicans" and the proletariat against monarchy that, nowadays, lead to the lack of democratic representation of the proletariat. I'm a socialist, slightly anarchist, and if you want authors that would be close to me politically, that would be Victor Hugo, or George Orwell.
"Being from left or from the right, is to choose one of the countless ways available to man to be a fool ; Both , indeed, are forms of moral hemiplegia." said Jose Ortega y Gasset.
PS : I have no love for the retardness of modern marxism.
Well Testie, it looks like you found your first commie. Luckily he's still in France - here's hoping he wont get tenure in Harvard and start indoctrinating your children!
On June 06 2016 00:50 biology]major wrote: systemic racism? what's holding black people back is their very own culture. No one seems to talk about it though. A culture that values being "hard" and banging as many "bitches" as possible over getting an education and being a productive member of society. I think this is one area where Obama could have made a shift in culture of minorities by emphasizing the value of education, hard work and to escape difficult environments. Now am I saying all black believe these things? No. However it's pretty hard to escape that culture when most role models they have esp from music industry are shoving these values down their throat. Its a detrimental culture, and they will never advance to the level of the rest of the population without abandoning parts of it.
People actually do talk about it. In fact there have been some really good books written on this topic, for example Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" and Jason Riley's "Please Stop Helping Us". I'd recommend reading them if you're interested.
I'm supposed to be reading something sir. But I've found way more commies than that. Have you not been seeing the videos we're linking? Is that remotely ok for an election? A massive portion of the left is for open class warfare. If you haven't been noticing, the violent revolution was directed at the rich at first from Bernies crowd. Now they're directed at Trump. See, the problem with commies is to lower social cohesion as a unit.
There are plenty on Sanders reddit who openly hate the idea of personal property. "No man is an island" and all that jazz. True, no man is an island. But I don't think I deserve as much $ as a doctor, or even close to the same social status because I chose to sit on my ass and read all day and get good at vidya games. Nor do I believe I should have access to his wife, his car, his kids (why?), or any other perks he worked his ass off for.
Wealth inequality is a natural phenomenon of capitalism. I don't hate social programs, and I think capitalism may need certain reigns. I.e. KwarK convinced me that the estate tax is overall a good thing though we may disagree on what amounts should be taken. 1. I didn't come close to fully understanding the estate tax or its history. 2. I was simply educated on the matter thus proving discussion can work! And I think everyone agrees on closing corporate loopholes, corporate welfare, shell companies etc. Though iirc aren't Elon Musks companies living off taxpayer $ right now? Since they're a great investment the public probably loves it but
I think it's rich that people that prosper directly from capitalism (our poor are better off than some other countries middle class) are such strong proponents against it. You're attached to the yacht speeding across the ocean, so what if you're in a shitty lifeboat next to the yacht. At least you're being dragged by the yacht itself to a higher standard of living than other countries. *Looks at HDI indexes of countries etc*
I don't know the solution for wealth inequality. Nor do I know if a solution is even necessary. I don't blame the Waltons for getting rich even with their countless exploitative business practices. If it wasn't them, another would have done it. See what they do wrong, try to fight them on it and correct it. I blame small towns who debated hotly on, "hey don't open a wal-mart here it'll kill the small businesses!" and the town council had the power and they chose to let it be built. And then the people who were so against wal-mart shopped there and whaddya know, richest man in the world splits his wealth to his children and boom they're all worth 39.2 billion or so now. If no man is an island, aren't the people to blame for the rich evil-doers as well? Most people in Canada can afford to stop shopping at wal-mart if they chose to. But then it hurts the employees at wal-mart, and the people who own the franchises etc. As you can tell I dislike the philisophical exchanges on what's right or what's ideal and try to care more about the practical and situational. Commies love that shit though. I'm not saying I won't miss the mark. But I've directly seen people complain about things that they themselves could have avoided that benefits 'the evil rich'. Yeah, some rich guys are evil. (Nestlé CEO hello). Some of them, probably not so much. No need to vilify them.
The fight is between Hillary and Donald now. But Sanders supporters are the ones wanting violent change, now. I can't tell if the # of protesters is actually growing or leaving. I don't think it's remotely sane to have your police stand down in any place a riot takes place. Protect your businesses, and your property. Otherwise you have the story of the man who burned down a 100m dollar building because he was all gungho about BLM. That's 100m!!!
@person above me: No, it is entirely on par for germans who use the term "regressive left" to also be enamoured with Putin. I've read enough of zeit.de's comment section to know that
Whatcha reading Testie?
WhiteDog: which book is that Ortega y Gasset quote from? I only read his book where he tried to create sociology from scratch, I quite enjoyed that one actually.
SK -> there's a lot of people on the left AND right that do things that are not remotely ok. A lot of people are idiots. On the internet it's especially easy to find a lot of loudmouth idiots; but don't let that fool you into thinking they represent a vast majority; they're just loud.
On June 06 2016 04:05 zlefin wrote: SK -> there's a lot of people on the left AND right that do things that are not remotely ok. A lot of people are idiots. On the internet it's especially easy to find a lot of loudmouth idiots; but don't let that fool you into thinking they represent a vast majority; they're just loud.
It's way easier to ignore when there's not violent protesters at every rally or event. The willingness to declare war on the other side is astounding. And the rule of law being tossed aside is not going to sit well with people. But if it weren't Trump, it would have been a lesser riot against the rich. Or perhaps the usual quiet brooding.
On June 06 2016 03:56 SK.Testie wrote: I'm supposed to be reading something sir. But I've found way more commies than that. Have you not been seeing the videos we're linking? Is that remotely ok for an election? A massive portion of the left is for open class warfare. If you haven't been noticing, the violent revolution was directed at the rich at first from Bernies crowd. Now they're directed at Trump. See, the problem with commies is to lower social cohesion as a unit.
Can you please define what you mean by "commie/ Communist"? I think a working definition of the term would make things easier to understand from your perspective, and prevent semantics arguments from occurring.
I love how Trump is so racist, that he's even racist against Americans. This judge is an American- from Indiana- and Trump think he's unfit because his heritage is technically from Mexico. Is Trump fooling anyone with dodges like these and refusing to acknowledge the definition of "racism" that Tapper repeatedly explained? Judges from Indiana can't do their jobs because Trump wants to build a wall to hurt Mexico?
On June 06 2016 04:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I love how Trump is so racist, that he's even racist against Americans. This judge is an American- from Indiana- and Trump think he's unfit because his heritage is technically from Mexico. Is Trump fooling anyone with dodges like these and refusing to acknowledge the definition of "racism" that Tapper repeatedly explained? Judges from Indiana can't do their jobs because Trump wants to build a wall to hurt Mexico?
It's also hinting at, if he were to become President, that he should be above Judicial oversight and decisions whether as a private citizen or President of the United States. Question or rule against him then you re a Muslim sympathizer or your heritage is anti-American.
On June 06 2016 04:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I love how Trump is so racist, that he's even racist against Americans. This judge is an American- from Indiana- and Trump think he's unfit because his heritage is technically from Mexico. Is Trump fooling anyone with dodges like these and refusing to acknowledge the definition of "racism" that Tapper repeatedly explained? Judges from Indiana can't do their jobs because Trump wants to build a wall to hurt Mexico?
It's also hinting at, if he were to become President, that he should be above Judicial oversight and decisions whether as a private citizen or President of the United States. Question or rule against him then you re a Muslim sympathizer or your heritage is anti-American.
On June 06 2016 04:05 zlefin wrote: SK -> there's a lot of people on the left AND right that do things that are not remotely ok. A lot of people are idiots. On the internet it's especially easy to find a lot of loudmouth idiots; but don't let that fool you into thinking they represent a vast majority; they're just loud.
It's way easier to ignore when there's not violent protesters at every rally or event. The willingness to declare war on the other side is astounding. And the rule of law being tossed aside is not going to sit well with people. But if it weren't Trump, it would have been a lesser riot against the rich. Or perhaps the usual quiet brooding.
it is indeed troublesome about those. I do wonder how much other violence goes on that is unreported at other people's events (if any, there's often many things that go unreported so one isn't aware of them). The rule of law isn't being tossed aside at all though; so I don't see where you're getting that. groups of problem people are being dealt with by the system at large quite capably; as often happens.
Both sides have people far too willing to declare war on the other side, the rising partisanship is quite a problem; it'd help if rhetoric would be toned down.
On June 06 2016 04:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I love how Trump is so racist, that he's even racist against Americans. This judge is an American- from Indiana- and Trump think he's unfit because his heritage is technically from Mexico. Is Trump fooling anyone with dodges like these and refusing to acknowledge the definition of "racism" that Tapper repeatedly explained? Judges from Indiana can't do their jobs because Trump wants to build a wall to hurt Mexico?
It's also hinting at, if he were to become President, that he should be above Judicial oversight and decisions whether as a private citizen or President of the United States. Question or rule against him then you re a Muslim sympathizer or your heritage is anti-American.
Here's a fun article on who can actually give unbiased judgement against Trump (turns out he has insulted most people, so the answer is not many).
I had no idea that Trump said he doesn't think that Ali was talking about him when he wrote his paper named "Presidential Candidates Proposing to Ban Muslim Immigration to the United States."
Yeah Donald, that has nothing to do with you. Fucking clown.
The right-wing posters who have come around to supporting Donald seem to be doing it from the lens that he's merely a backlash to PC culture, etc. as opposed to being an actual racist as most of the more liberal (aka the majority) of posters- I'm curious to see exactly how they make that distinction. Anyone want to chime in?
That judge is part of a Mexican heritage association called "La Raza" which translates to "The Race". He has promoted illegal immigrant scholarships.
It's like if a member of the Aryan Brotherhood were presiding over an Obama scandal. The media would be like, "WOAH. ARYAN BROTHERHOOD?" "don't worry it's just a name that promotes white culture! we have a lot of it and we're quite proud of it!!"
EPT
