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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2016 16:07 GMT
#70961
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 05 2016 16:09 GMT
#70962
It's only tangentially related, mostly focusing on the Panama FTA
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 05 2016 16:11 GMT
#70963
the discussion was about why sandernistas think the FTA implicated hillary in the panama scandal. it's pretty clear that they don't even understand the structures involved, just pointing to panama and free trade and expect the negativity to mix together.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:13:15
April 05 2016 16:12 GMT
#70964
On April 06 2016 01:07 Plansix wrote:
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.


It's connected. But Panama has been a tax haven since 1919. Source

Note that the source doesn't mention the FTA at all. But the report mentions "Panama is yet to sign any tax treaties with foreign countries. In addition, Panama has no information exchange provisions." which I think the FTA would have changed around the same time as the report was published. (It isn't mentioned though.)
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:14:39
April 05 2016 16:14 GMT
#70965
^ https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg982.aspx

this of course is bilateral and does not subject panama to universal transparency.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2016 16:16 GMT
#70966
On April 06 2016 01:12 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 01:07 Plansix wrote:
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.


It's connected. But Panama has been a tax haven since 1919. Source

Note that the source doesn't mention the FTA at all. But the report mentions "Panama is yet to sign any tax treaties with foreign countries. In addition, Panama has no information exchange provisions." which I think the FTA would have changed around the same time as the report was published. (It isn't mentioned though.)

Yeah, I am not really sure how you blame Hilary for that one unless you believe she could have forced Panama to exchange information through the FTA. But they might have gone into the discussion stating that an information exchange would be a deal breaker because Panama would lose too much. It might never have been on the table.

Shockingly, the ability for US politicians to force other sovereign nations to do things is pretty limited.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
April 05 2016 16:19 GMT
#70967
Now I know you guys are carrying sandernista arguments from other venues and venting your frustrations on me. I never once said that it enabled the practices, yet that's what the Hillary&co folks have been going on about.

No one here made the argument that it did. Yet you're acting like proving it didn't proves something and ignoring the core of my argument. It proves a point I never disagreed with...
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:33:33
April 05 2016 16:19 GMT
#70968
On April 06 2016 01:07 Plansix wrote:
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.

GreenHorizons tried to develop a new line of attack on Hillary by linking the Panama papers scandal to the Panama FTA; he was then asked how the Panama FTA worsened the situation with regards to the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and he revealed himself to be utterly incapable of explaining how that was the case. He then started arguing that the Panama FTA was a terribly bad deal for the US and a great deal for Panama -- he was subsequently asked to explain how that was the case, and he again revealed himself to be utterly incapable to do so. He has now retreated into saying that the FTA should have stopped the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and that it should not have been signed without stopping them, basically mirroring what the GOP is saying about the Iran deal and American prisoners. He basically has no knowledge of these issues, and probably discovered the existence of the Panama FTA earlier today.

Thanks for your links and quote, Ghanburighan (also oneofthem). If there is any other study or report of the impact of the FTA on the practices unearthed by the Panama papers, I'll be interested in reading it.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 05 2016 16:20 GMT
#70969
again, what was the point of bringing up the panama fta in this context? you can go back and delete all your posts after being proven wrong.

btw we did get some transparency deal out of that FTA process, look at the links i've posted.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
April 05 2016 16:24 GMT
#70970
On April 06 2016 01:19 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 01:07 Plansix wrote:
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.

GreenHorizons tried to develop a new line of attack on Hillary by linking the Panama papers scandal to the Panama FTA; he was then asked how the Panama FTA worsened the situation with regards to the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and he revealed himself to be utterly incapable of explaining how that was the case. He then started arguing that the Panama FTA was a terribly bad deal for the US and a great deal for Panama -- he was subsequently asked to explain how that was the case, and he again revealed himself to be utterly incapable to do so. He has now retreated into saying that the FTA should have stopped the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and that it should not have been signed without stopping them, basically mirroring what the GOP is saying about the Iran deal and American prisoners. He basically has no knowledge of these issues, and probably discovered the existence of the Panama FTA earlier today.

Thanks for your links and quote, Ghanburighan (also oneofthem). If there is any other study or report of the impact of the TFA on the practices unearthed by the Panama papers, I'll be interested in reading it.


Dude, the posts are right here. Show me where I linked Hillary's support of the trade agreement to the Panama papers scandal? Pretty sure that's the first time I even said Panama papers in this thread.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2016 16:25 GMT
#70971
Then why are we discussing the Panama FTA then? Its just one of many FTAs that exist.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 05 2016 16:25 GMT
#70972
Negotiated while Hillary was SoS, her support of the deal, something something
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 05 2016 16:26 GMT
#70973
The Justice Department's No. 3 official, Stuart Delery, is resigning to explore options in the private sector, leaving as the highest-ranking openly gay leader in the agency's history.

Delery started at the department on Inauguration Day in 2009, rising from his post as a top aide, to the chief of the civil division, and then serving as acting associate attorney general. Along the way, he personally argued appeals court cases challenging the Defense of Marriage Act, which had defined marriage as between one man and one woman, and defended the Obama administration's counterterrorism initiatives as well as subsidies in the Affordable Care Act.

"It's been a complete privilege to work here at the Department of Justice," Delery, 47, told NPR in an interview Tuesday morning. "It's been a real honor to be part of it, and I feel really lucky as a lawyer to have had the chance to do it."

A high point of his time in the administration: leading a governmentwide effort to review federal statutes and regulations to make sure same-sex couples received equal benefits and rights after the Supreme Court's 2013 ruling in United States v. Windsor, which held the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:30:56
April 05 2016 16:27 GMT
#70974
On April 06 2016 01:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
Negotiated while Hillary was SoS, her support of the deal, something something



Thank you, didn't think you guys actually had a post of me doing that.

On April 06 2016 01:25 Plansix wrote:
Then why are we discussing the Panama FTA then? Its just one of many FTAs that exist.


I already said

It's an example of what we can expect Hillary to "get done" and the kind of people who will support her agenda (Rupert Murdoch) as evidenced by the near celebration of the trade deal when you all know that we shouldn't have even been at the table without them giving major concessions on their banking.

Hillary has got you all so twisted up you all are actually defending her pushing for a trade deal lobbied for by Rupert Murdoch. Just let that sink in for a while.


Are you even reading what I'm saying before just hopping in the convo?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 05 2016 16:31 GMT
#70975
the fta was actually in negotiation since 2007. hillary and obama made it better.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:32:57
April 05 2016 16:31 GMT
#70976
On April 05 2016 14:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2016 13:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The first US names of the Panama Papers have started to appear most seem to be either in prison or caught already:

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/americans-including-a-bellevue-man-show-up-in-panama-papers/



I don't know how the man does it. Less than a year of butting heads and I already think some people are lost causes, he's been saying stuff like this and being right about it for decades.


On April 05 2016 17:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's the read from the Clinton camp about her pushing the Panama Trade deal?


On April 05 2016 20:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2016 20:23 kwizach wrote:
The page on her website from which your image is taken features several links explaining the details of her proposals -- feel free to read them. I'm not sure how your post is supposed to establish that Hillary would have as much trouble explaining her own proposals as Sanders, though. Apparently we're not even talking about Sanders anymore -- the deflection is real.


From the person who's totally ignoring the question about Hillary's role in pushing for the Panama Trade deal.


It was pretty obvious that the two were related (otherwise why the hell would we be talking about a FTA with a pretty tiny central American nation), and you didn't have a problem with arguing how financial regulation wasn't a part of the package up till that point. Unless you're suggesting you just coincidentally developed an interest in Panamanian free trade agreements or something.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:35:14
April 05 2016 16:32 GMT
#70977
On April 06 2016 01:31 oneofthem wrote:
the fta was actually in negotiation since 2007. hillary and obama made it better.


They should of let it die/walked away (for like the 3rd time)

On April 06 2016 01:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2016 14:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 05 2016 13:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The first US names of the Panama Papers have started to appear most seem to be either in prison or caught already:

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/americans-including-a-bellevue-man-show-up-in-panama-papers/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsI0Sw2hq8&feature=youtu.be


I don't know how the man does it. Less than a year of butting heads and I already think some people are lost causes, he's been saying stuff like this and being right about it for decades.


Show nested quote +
On April 05 2016 17:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's the read from the Clinton camp about her pushing the Panama Trade deal?


Show nested quote +
On April 05 2016 20:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 05 2016 20:23 kwizach wrote:
The page on her website from which your image is taken features several links explaining the details of her proposals -- feel free to read them. I'm not sure how your post is supposed to establish that Hillary would have as much trouble explaining her own proposals as Sanders, though. Apparently we're not even talking about Sanders anymore -- the deflection is real.


From the person who's totally ignoring the question about Hillary's role in pushing for the Panama Trade deal.


It was pretty obvious that the two were related (otherwise why the hell would we be talking about a FTA with a pretty tiny central American nation), and you didn't have a problem with arguing how financial regulation wasn't a part of the package up till that point. Unless you're suggesting you just coincidentally developed an interest in Panamanian free trade agreements or something.


Are you familiar with the concept of Conversation (big C not little c)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:35:26
April 05 2016 16:32 GMT
#70978
On April 06 2016 01:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 01:19 kwizach wrote:
On April 06 2016 01:07 Plansix wrote:
Do we have any proof that the trade deal enabled the practices? The Panama papers are from a law firm and go back almost decades from my understanding. Law firms have built in privacy rules that are respected by a number of nations. And if the firm did not exist in Panama, it would exist elsewhere.

Or am I misunderstanding this discussion and it is separate from the Panama papers.

GreenHorizons tried to develop a new line of attack on Hillary by linking the Panama papers scandal to the Panama FTA; he was then asked how the Panama FTA worsened the situation with regards to the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and he revealed himself to be utterly incapable of explaining how that was the case. He then started arguing that the Panama FTA was a terribly bad deal for the US and a great deal for Panama -- he was subsequently asked to explain how that was the case, and he again revealed himself to be utterly incapable to do so. He has now retreated into saying that the FTA should have stopped the practices revealed in the Panama papers, and that it should not have been signed without stopping them, basically mirroring what the GOP is saying about the Iran deal and American prisoners. He basically has no knowledge of these issues, and probably discovered the existence of the Panama FTA earlier today.

Thanks for your links and quote, Ghanburighan (also oneofthem). If there is any other study or report of the impact of the TFA on the practices unearthed by the Panama papers, I'll be interested in reading it.


Dude, the posts are right here. Show me where I linked Hillary's support of the trade agreement to the Panama papers scandal? Pretty sure that's the first time I even said Panama papers in this thread.

So the Panama papers scandal blows up, a Sanders video in which he discusses tax evasion in Panama and links it to the Panama FTA gets posted in this thread, you ask me "why didn't Hillary listen to Bernie?" (clearly referring to those comments), post an analysis criticizing Panama for its tax havens and rail about Panama's "banking industry", yet now you're pretending that you were not linking the Panama FTA to the practices highlighted in the Panama papers. I mean, we're reaching levels of dishonesty and backpedaling I haven't seen here in a long time :D
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:34:16
April 05 2016 16:33 GMT
#70979
On April 06 2016 01:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 01:31 oneofthem wrote:
the fta was actually in negotiation since 2007. hillary and obama made it better.


They should of let it die/walked away (for like the 3rd time)

again, why? panama scandal?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 05 2016 16:34 GMT
#70980
On April 06 2016 00:57 oneofthem wrote:
here's a long piece bashing sanders' policies.

http://www.joshuakennon.com/thoughts-bernie-sanders-tax-economic-proposal/

I like how he spends more than half of this post justifying himself, well aware of how credible a blog post is as a substantive argument. His criticisms of Bernie's programs are legitimate - these are genuine problems and I agree that the wealthy do essentially what this post says they do - but I really don't see that he has a credible alternative. It seems more that he's saying "Sanders sucks so forget him therefore Hillary." Or maybe Trump or Cruz or some candidate that doesn't matter, but you would be hard-pressed to convince anyone that the two Republican candidates are better than either Democratic candidate on economics.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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