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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 04:21 oneofthem wrote: how does this change anything these places are extremely export reliant. How are stronger IP protections for a hegemon beneficial to export reliant developing economies, to competition, or to reduced prices/material prosperity? | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 04:36 oneofthem wrote: uh what creating spam is really a tiny area of the economy. the replacement industries in the u.s. ideally take advantage of decentralized and modular production and distribution networks. the advances in logistics and automated management of markets place platforms really have potential here. btw part of my concern with privacy hawks is that they fail to recognize the immense economic value of security in the future use of the network. things like 3d printing require ability to weed out bad actors or the entire system is a no go are facebook and iphone apps and youtube "spam" in your statements? 3d printing and modular production would benefit immensely from open source intellectual commons while increasing prosperity | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
east asian places also can and have historically licensed tech for development around them, with the derivative invention orwork in turn protected as a product. it is impossible to have this process without the licensing and disclosure regime of patents. why license when you are faced with secondary market proliferation? | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On March 10 2016 04:39 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Serfdom? Currently we force all people to work, regardless of it they want to work or not. Today, 'What do you do (in life)?" means: "What is your job?". Under a basic income, people that don't want to work, don't. and why should they be rewarded for doing nothing to contribute to society? | ||
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
On March 10 2016 04:59 IgnE wrote: How are stronger IP protections for a hegemon beneficial to export reliant developing economies, for competition, or for reduced prices/material prosperity? I misread your comment. They aren't. Stronger IP in !China helps the USA full stop. Hence why I am positive-neutral on TPP. China has basically no IP protections. TPP is with everyone in East-Asia but China (i.e., !China). We don't want !China to adopt the Chinese approach to IP. If we get the treaty in now, then USA IP has a chance of being respected and paid for in !China. There will be an initial burst of trade that might hurt American labor after TPP, but in the long (10 years minimum) run, the increased trade, rights, and wages (in !China) will balance this out. We want wages in !China to go up, and increased trade is the way to do it. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:02 IgnE wrote: your description doesnt fit these guys. they are either marketing or platforms, and those do have functional uses. are facebook and iphone apps and youtube "spam" in your statements? 3d printing and modular production would benefit immensely from open source intellectual commons while increasing prosperity | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:13 amazingxkcd wrote: and why should they be rewarded for doing nothing to contribute to society? We had this discussion a while back ^^. The idea behind basic income is that it is, or will be soon, impossible to have 100% employment. A growing portion of the work force will be without a job because there is simply no job for them. Since society has decided to support people with no money it makes sense to give everyone a basic income that allows them to live off and those who do find work will earn more and have room for luxuries. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:13 amazingxkcd wrote: and why should they be rewarded for doing nothing to contribute to society? The more important question is how do we prevent the system from collapsing. The moral arguments are a dead end and he will take the high road of "all people have a minimum value". The better, more compelling argument, is the problematic areas government will need to become involved with to sustain such a system. Like: Population control for non-workers Voting for non-workers - do they get equal say? Level of basic education allowed for non-workers Access to public services - Do people who work get more access? And so on. How does the goverment prevent a massive growth of non-worker population if it starts to happen? What morally questionable activity will we need to engage in to stop that? | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:15 oneofthem wrote: your description doesnt fit these guys. they are either marketing or platforms, and those do have functional uses. use is not identical with value. classic marxian contradiction between use values and exchange values. need a paradigm shift | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:13 amazingxkcd wrote: and why should they be rewarded for doing nothing to contribute to society? Precisely so that they get the chance to contribute. And saying it's a reward is incredibly insulting to anyone who ever lived only with basic income to live. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:21 IgnE wrote: use is not identical with value. classic marxian contradiction between use values and exchange values. need a paradigm shift well in a competitive marketplace where people are not held hostage to use facebook etc, they do offer some value in order to capture the user. it may not be healthy or productive in the sense of virtues but really it's a stretch to say it has not added to society. other things like youtube or google search are pretty good and offer great enrichment. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:14 JW_DTLA wrote: I misread your comment. They aren't. Stronger IP in !China helps the USA full stop. Hence why I am positive-neutral on TPP. China has basically no IP protections. TPP is with everyone in East-Asia but China (i.e., !China). We don't want !China to adopt the Chinese approach to IP. If we get the treaty in now, then USA IP has a chance of being respected and paid for in !China. There will be an initial burst of trade that might hurt American labor after TPP, but in the long (10 years minimum) run, the increased trade, rights, and wages (in !China) will balance this out. We want wages in !China to go up, and increased trade is the way to do it. helping the US or helping international capital? in removing the china "barrier" to accumulation you inevitably create the conditions for a new barrier in !china 10 years down the road and we are renegotiating trade treaties to avoid "destructive competition" in !china. this is assuming of course there isn't a meltdown before then that sets us back another decade or two. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:25 oneofthem wrote: well in a competitive marketplace where people are not held hostage to use facebook etc, they do offer some value in order to capture the user. it may not be healthy or productive in the sense of virtues but really it's a stretch to say it has not added to society. other things like youtube or google search are pretty good and offer great enrichment. and its not a surprise that they are now the titans of the new industry and the barriers to entry are so huge while so much capital is still being invested in inane tech startups. there is an attention saturation point and as we approach it "virtues" rather than shareholder value and market capitalization should enter into the public policy discussion lest we end up like black mirror episode 2. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
so for socialism lovers a system that can break the tyranny of the economy of scale, including the financial aspect of capital access and the barrier to entry associated, is pretty important. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:13 amazingxkcd wrote: and why should they be rewarded for doing nothing to contribute to society? They aren't. Why should we punish people who are not productive enough to make for their employer whatever the minimum wage is? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 10 2016 04:26 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: That's why minimum wage is bad, those that are weakest get less and they can't meet their basic needs while having 0 productivity and achieving 0% of their already very low productivity. Example is the coffee lady at some office. A coffee dispenser is cheaper than minimum wage. This lady shows up too late late every week, has no sense of drive or competition, does everything she does very slow, doesn't have any skills to do anything but make coffee and have some small talk. So she sits at home, depressed and no goals in life, at the expense of society as minimum wage if more than what she is worth on the labour market. WTF? Offices pay people to make coffee and some small talk? Can be late and slow. This sounds like a dream job for the unqualified and lazy. Where can I get this amazing job? Actually scrap that. Where do I work to have someone personally serving me free coffee at work? Do I have to go to USA for this? | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:43 oneofthem wrote: well i've talked about this before but the value of these internet businesses still largely depend on the underlying real economy. with no dramatic shift in structure there you won't see much value added by IT per se, except to make scaling easier and more manageable, in the service of more mergers and acrobatics with your supply chain. so for socialism lovers a system that can break the tyranny of the economy of scale, including the financial aspect of capital access and the barrier to entry associated, is pretty important. yeah and abolishing the current Ip regime is a first step forward | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote: WTF? Offices pay people to make coffee and some small talk? Can be late and slow. This sounds like a dream job for the unqualified and lazy. Where can I get this amazing job? Actually scrap that. Where do I work to have someone personally serving me free coffee at work? Do I have to go to USA for this? Are you even reading? Those people exist. Under our current system they are jobless, collecting handouts. They can't find a job because their value is below the minimum wage. You can give them minimum income. Then, companies can hire these people for whatever their true worth is. Let's say it is 50 dollar a week. What I describe is a truly sad sad life with almost no pay, though you get a basic income so you can live above the poverty standard. Are you really envious about that? That's sad. Also, before we had coffee vending machine, every company had exactly such a person. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 10 2016 05:49 IgnE wrote: yeah and abolishing the current Ip regime is a first step forward eh you just need to let competition run its course. if people are motivated enough to create open platforms, their works should not be obstructed. if some people want to protect particular products that do not inhibit the development of future stuff all that much, they should be able to do so. i don't see how abolishing current ip would matter. you would certainly want reforms particularly these proprietary colonizing of open platforms, but that is hardly abolishing ip | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
ip is a huge barrier to entry in many of the American-led tech industries. what do you think apple v samsung was about? or pharma patent thickets? or the gross startup culture of science profs at leadig research universities? | ||
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