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On June 30 2013 11:40 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 10:58 Mohdoo wrote:On June 30 2013 08:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:BERLIN, June 29 (Reuters) - The United States bugged European Union offices and gained access to EU internal computer networks, according to secret documents cited in a German magazine on Saturday, the latest in a series of exposures of alleged U.S. spy programmes.
Der Spiegel cited from a September 2010 "top secret" document of the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) which it said fugitive former NSA contractor Edward Snowden had taken with him and which the weekly's journalists had seen in part.
The document outlines how the NSA bugged offices and spied on EU internal computer networks in Washington and at the United Nations, not only listening to conversations and phone calls but also gaining access to documents and emails.
The document explicitly called the EU a "target".
A slew of Snowden's disclosures in foreign media about U.S. surveillance programmes have ignited a political furore in the United States and abroad over the balance between privacy rights and national security.
According to Der Spiegel, the NSA also targeted telecommunications at the Justus Lipsius building in Brussels, home to the European Council that groups EU national governments, by calling a remote maintenance unit. Source Oh man. Keeps getting worse. Indeed. I can defend what's been done so far as a relatively even battle between the gains in public and private space. If the NSA is actually spying on governments, I think that's a step too far. Particularly because that should be the CIA if it's done at all.
Really? Isn't it one of the mains jobs of the NSA and CIA to spy on foreign entities? The fact that they can overstep their bounds when spying domestically on the population is far more disturbing to me. There's a reason no one really gave a shit in the end when we found out the UK was spying on delegates at the G20. Governments spy on others. Not to say some EU people shouldnt be upset over this of course, but it's not all that shocking a revelation compared to others' we've heard lately.
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On June 30 2013 14:25 DannyJ wrote:
Really? Isn't it one of the mains jobs of the NSA and CIA to spy on foreign entities? The fact that they can overstep their bounds when spying domestically on the population is far more disturbing to me. There's a reason no one really gave a shit in the end when we found out the UK was spying on delegates at the G20. Governments spy on others. Not to say some EU people shouldnt be upset over this of course, but it's not all that shocking a revelation compared to others' we've heard lately.
Yes EU countries have spies (Intelligence Officer) in every corner of the globe, including the USA. But none of them is wire-tapping the white house. On the contrary, I can assure you that every political leader in Africa is by France.
Plus G20 isn't a meeting of allies, it's the EU + USA + Canada versus BRICS and there is way much at stake than spying on unconditional allies.
The reality is, US citizens don't have the power to control their political institutions anymore and those institutions are really annoying the shit out of the rest of the world. I don't give a damn if the NSA knows when every US citizen eat, I give a damn when they are threatening the security of the most important organisation in the world for me.
PS : Jadedness shouldn't be any excuse.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DH23rTE.jpg)
I was talking to my radical leftist friends the other day, talking about how they saw Obama in light of the NSA datamining. Was Obama opposed but not successful in stopping, mildly opposed but acknowledging a need, or supportive of the PRISM and like programs. Collect all data you can and process, then look for national security interests. It was enlightening to see that they believed Obama to be unsuccessful in his attempts at transparency and a new government with accountability. I know its a long stretch from powerless idealist to cold political calculator, but I shared some hope. Is this not reminiscent of the East German Stasi, such as in this article from Der Spiegel
"The citizens of a democratic state must have confidence that certain agreed to rules are also adhered to. These days, 'data protection' is treated more like a bureaucratic chore, and not something that pertains to human dignity. But there is also an internationally guaranteed right to privacy and to the protection of the core area of our private lives against arbitrary interference by the state. ... This applies in particular to Continental Europe and especially Germany, which has had extensive experience with totalitarian regimes and where the East German Stasi on any given day opened more than 100,000 letters and packages."
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Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather.
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On June 30 2013 22:12 polarwolf wrote:
Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather.
Ofc its worth pissing off there allies. What are they going to do? sanctions that hurt themselves just as much? Tell em there naughty?
Fact of the matter is the US can do whatever it feels like short of actual military invasion.
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On June 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 22:12 polarwolf wrote:
Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather. Ofc its worth pissing off there allies. What are they going to do? sanctions that hurt themselves just as much? Tell em there naughty? Fact of the matter is the US can do whatever it feels like short of actual military invasion.
A mutual beneficial trade agreement potwntially not going trough or at least having to give up a lot of concessions and the EU getting another diplomatic tool to use against the US is a massive loss. It's literally costing billions
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SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Lawyers for the sponsors of California’s same-sex marriage ban have filed an emergency motion asking the U.S. Supreme Court to overrule the federal appeals court that on Friday freed the state to issue marriage licenses to gay couples.
Attorneys with the Arizona-based Alliance Defending Freedom said they submitted the petition on Saturday to Justice Anthony Kennedy, who handles motions dealing with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Senior Counsel Austin Nimocks says a three-judge 9th Circuit panel acted prematurely and unfairly when it lifted the hold on same-sex marriages it had put in place while a challenge to the ban made its way through the courts.
Nimocks says the Supreme Court’s consideration of the case is not done yet because his clients still have 22 days to ask the justices to reconsider their decision holding that Proposition 8’s backers did not have legal authority to defend the ban.
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Thank the Lord for groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom........what a name lol
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On July 01 2013 02:28 Rassy wrote:
Soooooo.....
Why are you spying on us here in europe and particulary germany?
Is it because germany is the only one left opposing a usa style monetary policy for europe, or are all the politicians potential terrorists?
And what are you looking for btw, things to blackmail politicians so the nsa can control them?
Usa did a smart job by electing obama to keep executing and increasing this, he got so much credit here that he even got the noble peace price.
If this was done under bush then the european reaction would have been alot more fierce, only obama can get away with this.
Wish the germans left their guilt about ww2 behind and started fighting for themselves again.
Cant expect annything from the dutch unfortunatly, they so week they will go with everything that the big powers tell them to -.-
"The reality is, US citizens don't have the power to control their political institutions anymore "
This is so true, though i guess the same goes for europe.
Citizens lost all their power and democracy is non existant.
The US developed extensive intelligence networks mainly to combat pain in the ass Europeans. After the conflicts ended the US decided that those institutions were still useful in peacetime and too difficult to reassemble as needed. And so they were kept and so they are used.
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On July 01 2013 00:45 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 30 2013 22:12 polarwolf wrote:
Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather. Ofc its worth pissing off there allies. What are they going to do? sanctions that hurt themselves just as much? Tell em there naughty? Fact of the matter is the US can do whatever it feels like short of actual military invasion. A mutual beneficial trade agreement potwntially not going trough or at least having to give up a lot of concessions and the EU getting another diplomatic tool to use against the US is a massive loss. It's literally costing billions
Costing billions to who exactly? The post you quoted hit the nail on the head, there's nothing Europe is gonna do about it, why would they not go through with a mutually beneficial agreement?
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It wont be a mutually beneficial agreement for the countrys in europe wich can not compete,as competition will greatly increase in a free tade zone, and there are quiet a few of thoose "not so" competitive countrys. The only ones who this will be beneficial for are international companys. Countrys wich can not compete already will be forced to have a usa style economy and social system where millions more will fall into poverty, difference between poor and rich will grow.
I dont see manny positive things come from this at all tbh, even though it probably is good for the netherlands with its export economy and major port.
It would be nice though to be able to buy say a corvette or cadilac for 40k euro instead of the 200k it is now.. but i think our government will still find ways to somehow tax it lol
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On June 30 2013 18:22 Danglars wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I was talking to my radical leftist friends the other day, talking about how they saw Obama in light of the NSA datamining. Was Obama opposed but not successful in stopping, mildly opposed but acknowledging a need, or supportive of the PRISM and like programs. Collect all data you can and process, then look for national security interests. It was enlightening to see that they believed Obama to be unsuccessful in his attempts at transparency and a new government with accountability. I know its a long stretch from powerless idealist to cold political calculator, but I shared some hope. Is this not reminiscent of the East German Stasi, such as in this article from Der SpiegelShow nested quote +"The citizens of a democratic state must have confidence that certain agreed to rules are also adhered to. These days, 'data protection' is treated more like a bureaucratic chore, and not something that pertains to human dignity. But there is also an internationally guaranteed right to privacy and to the protection of the core area of our private lives against arbitrary interference by the state. ... This applies in particular to Continental Europe and especially Germany, which has had extensive experience with totalitarian regimes and where the East German Stasi on any given day opened more than 100,000 letters and packages."
Supportive, no doubt about it. It has been reported for years that Obama has been spying on and infiltrating left wing and peace activist groups.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/28/broadcast_exclusive_declassified_docs_reveal_military
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On July 01 2013 03:31 Rassy wrote:
It wont be a mutually beneficial agreement for the countrys in europe wich can not compete,as competition will greatly increase in a free tade zone, and there are quiet a few of thoose "not so" competitive countrys. The only ones who this will be beneficial for are international companys. Countrys wich can not compete already will be forced to have a usa style economy and social system where millions more will fall into poverty, difference between poor and rich will grow.
I dont see manny positive things come from this at all tbh, even though it probably is good for the netherlands with its export economy and major port.
It would be nice though to be able to buy say a corvette or cadilac for 40k euro instead of the 200k it is now.. but i think our government will still find ways to somehow tax it lol
Not being able to compete depresses incomes. You can pretend it doesn't with unsustainable policies for a while, but eventually it will come back to bite.
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On July 01 2013 03:13 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 00:45 RvB wrote:On June 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 30 2013 22:12 polarwolf wrote:
Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather. Ofc its worth pissing off there allies. What are they going to do? sanctions that hurt themselves just as much? Tell em there naughty? Fact of the matter is the US can do whatever it feels like short of actual military invasion. A mutual beneficial trade agreement potwntially not going trough or at least having to give up a lot of concessions and the EU getting another diplomatic tool to use against the US is a massive loss. It's literally costing billions Costing billions to who exactly? The post you quoted hit the nail on the head, there's nothing Europe is gonna do about it, why would they not go through with a mutually beneficial agreement?
Because they spied on Europe lol.
The agreement is made while the US knew exactly which points are important for Europe to negotiate about and what wasn't, of course you're going to at least renegotiate the agreement.
And if they renegotiate the US position will now be weaker and that will indeed cost them.
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The Supreme Court has rejected a petition from an anti-gay marriage group to halt same-sex weddings in California.
Theodore J. Boutrous Jr., one of the attorneys who challenged California's gay marriage ban in federal court, told the Los Angeles Times on Sunday that Justice Anthony Kennedy had denied the petition by Proposition 8's sponsors to put an immediate hold on all gay weddings in the state. According to Boutros, Kennedy did not comment on the decision.
On Saturday, Proposition 8's backers filed the emergency petition requesting that the Supreme Court vacate the Ninth Circuit order that cleared the way for same-sex weddings to resume in California.
"The Ninth Circuit's June 28, 2013 Order purporting to dissolve the stay...is the latest in a long line of judicial irregularities that have unfairly thwarted Petitioners' defense of California's marriage amendment," the paperwork filed by attorneys with Alliance Defending Freedom read. "Failing to correct the appellate court's actions threatens to undermine the public's confidence in its legal system."
The Ninth Circuit's order came as a surprise to many, as the three-judge panel had previously said it would wait to lift the hold for 25 days.
The order allowed weddings to resume just two days after the Supreme Court declined to rule on Proposition 8's constitutionality.
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On July 01 2013 04:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 03:31 Rassy wrote:
It wont be a mutually beneficial agreement for the countrys in europe wich can not compete,as competition will greatly increase in a free tade zone, and there are quiet a few of thoose "not so" competitive countrys. The only ones who this will be beneficial for are international companys. Countrys wich can not compete already will be forced to have a usa style economy and social system where millions more will fall into poverty, difference between poor and rich will grow.
I dont see manny positive things come from this at all tbh, even though it probably is good for the netherlands with its export economy and major port.
It would be nice though to be able to buy say a corvette or cadilac for 40k euro instead of the 200k it is now.. but i think our government will still find ways to somehow tax it lol Not being able to compete depresses incomes. You can pretend it doesn't with unsustainable policies for a while, but eventually it will come back to bite.
You mean the way that US salaries were depressed by 30 years of free trade for everyone not in the manager and up class of workers?
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On July 01 2013 05:02 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 03:13 Feartheguru wrote:On July 01 2013 00:45 RvB wrote:On June 30 2013 22:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 30 2013 22:12 polarwolf wrote:
Seems like Germany is considered "a target" by NSA and there is heavy surveillance, just paralleled by the surveillance of China, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. :-o
I guess the real reason for this is not terrorism but industrial espionage.
As a German I always considered the US as a friend, but now I am really angry and I think I am not the only one. This will fuel anti-Americanism here in Europe quite a bit and right so.
Maybe the US government should be thinking whether pissing off allies like that is worth whatever intelligence they gather. Ofc its worth pissing off there allies. What are they going to do? sanctions that hurt themselves just as much? Tell em there naughty? Fact of the matter is the US can do whatever it feels like short of actual military invasion. A mutual beneficial trade agreement potwntially not going trough or at least having to give up a lot of concessions and the EU getting another diplomatic tool to use against the US is a massive loss. It's literally costing billions Costing billions to who exactly? The post you quoted hit the nail on the head, there's nothing Europe is gonna do about it, why would they not go through with a mutually beneficial agreement? Because they spied on Europe lol. The agreement is made while the US knew exactly which points are important for Europe to negotiate about and what wasn't, of course you're going to at least renegotiate the agreement. And if they renegotiate the US position will now be weaker and that will indeed cost them.
And what's your point... lol
That doesn't mean the U.S. gets a worse deal than they would have gotten without spying. lol.
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Openly gay Pa. Rep. Brian Sims, D-Philadelphia, was blocked from talking about the Supreme Court's ruling on the Defense of Marriage Act Wednesday on the floor of the Pennsylvania House.
His comments to his colleagues were ended by a procedural maneuver.
In a part of the house session where members can speak on wide-ranging topics, Sims had just begun his remarks when he was shut down.
"I wasn't planning on chastising anybody. I wasn't planning on discussing how far we have to come in Pennsylvania or that we really have no civil rights in Pennsylvania," Sims said. "It was really just going to limit my comments to how important the cases were."
It takes just one legislator to end the impromptu remarks. Rep. Daryl Metcalfe was one of the House Republicans who objected.
"I did not believe that as a member of that body that I should allow someone to make comments such as he was preparing to make that ultimately were just open rebellion against what the word of God has said, what God has said, and just open rebellion against God's law," said Metcalfe, R-Butler.
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EPT
