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On January 29 2016 02:49 Mohdoo wrote:
To be fair, do we really want immigrants who can't afford a few thousand bucks?
That is just the form and processing cost for one part years long process. I believe a friend of mine had to spend 15K to go from his student to business owner visa. And he was worried about it being revoked every year, even though he had a wildly successful TI/webdesign company. He only got a full green card after being married. That also cost a bunch of money.
The process is completely broken on almost every level.
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My mom came to the US in the 80's for grad school, took her until 2006 to become a citizen. Her case probably isn't super unique, but its an example of the insanity of the system. She got her master's and PhD, worked a few years, married my dad (who got his citizenship much earlier b/c the government wanted him to work for them) and had 2 kids but had to wait 20+ years to get her citizenship.
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United States42988 Posts
On January 29 2016 02:49 Mohdoo wrote:
To be fair, do we really want immigrants who can't afford a few thousand bucks?
No but there must be an easier way to prove that they have 12 months living expenses ready in cash than to make them spend 12 months living in the US without the right to work. Couldn't you just check their bank statement and then give them right to work that week?
That way they'll actually still have 12 months living expenses in cash when their right to work is granted.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the piecemeal lawmaking process makes the system accumulate these restrictive rules over time. you probably won't get much traction for policy change that is about the interest of immigrants. you've either got to involve industry which demands a lot of cheaper foreign technical workers or frame the policy in some strategic way.
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In general, people moving from places with a similar standard of living and, in many places, better welfare system, should probably be let in pretty easily (at least if they're of middle class or better); places like germany, britain, sweden
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On January 29 2016 02:21 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, I wasn’t really trying to justify illegal immigration. Only point out that it is a result of our system being broken for well over a decade. And that reforming it has to start with ending the belief that the government could deport the majority of illegal immigrants. Attempts to do so would be a nightmare.
Edit: When people talk about “the lack of assimilation”, that shit is generational. There is a reason places like China Town and “the North End” exist in Boston and are dominated by people from a specific region. The next generation become “more American”. The argument of lack of assimilation is so weak because it has been levied against culture upon arriving in the US and were rebuffed for failing to instantly change. It is a complete non-issue in my opinion and pointless to bring up.
No, its not merely generational.
Second-, third- and fourth-generation Mexican Americans speak English fluently, and most prefer American music. They are increasingly Protestant, and some may even vote for a Republican candidate.
However, many Mexican Americans in these later generations do not graduate from college, and they continue to live in majority Hispanic neighborhoods. Most marry other Hispanics and think of themselves as "Mexican" or "Mexican American."
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-study-of-four-generations-46372
Mexico is the single largest source of immigrants, 31%, to the United States. How is thoroughly is this group assimilating? By some measures pretty well. In their 2009 book Generations of Exclusion: Mexican Americans, Assimilation, and Race, researchers Edward Telles and Vilma Ortiz examined the assimilation of a 800 Mexican-American immigrants and 700 of their children in Los Angeles and San Antonio from 1965 to the present. Telles and Ortiz find much progress was made from the first to second generation. For instance, all Mexican Americans were English-proficient by the second generation, and educational levels of second-generation Mexican Americans improved dramatically.
But then the assimilation process stalls out. Unlike the descendants of European immigrants to the US, the researchers conclude to their own admitted surprise, Mexican Americans have not fully integrated by the third and fourth generation — particularly in terms of education, earnings, ethnic identity, and residential segregation
More: George Borjas (warning paywall) demonstrates that South/Central American immigrants are assimilating more slowly than previously, and even the first waves of South/Central American Immigrants assimilated more slowly.
Edit. If I may editorialize a bit, this is the reason why "Right Wing" in the European sense has often meant what we in America would now see as "Trumpism". When the state benefits get large enough to represent a significant plurality of the economy, the old trope of a "fixed pie" becomes increasingly true (whereas its basically approaches entirely false in a more capitalistic society). And so the mentality of "us vs. them" becomes somewhat justified, as every person who enters the country that is going to have a lower lifetime income than you represents a diminution in your government benefits/increase in your tax obligations.
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I fail to see a problem. China town still exists. Both sides of my family lived in their respective “Swedish/Irish neighborhoods” for two generations or longer. The Irish side of my family still lives that neighborhood. My fiancée’s father and grandfather traveled back to Italy yearly to take care of an old family home and still live an “Italian neighborhood”.
I see no problems at all. What people see as “failure to assimilate” isn’t a problem worth worrying about.
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Wasteful government spending 
I have no argument with a simplified and quick legal immigration scheme. As mentioned earlier, there's no political will to do it. Both parties have their top-10 issues and that's not one.
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On January 29 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:
I fail to see a problem. China town still exists. Both sides of my family lived in their respective “Swedish/Irish neighborhoods” for two generations or longer. The Irish side of my family still lives that neighborhood. My fiancée’s father and grandfather traveled back to Italy yearly to take care of an old family home and still live an “Italian neighborhood”.
I see no problems at all. What people see as “failure to assimilate” isn’t a problem worth worrying about.
Except, most of that is about failure to become a median American when it comes to education and income. No one gives a shit if you decide to eat only potatoes and cabbage. Heck, most Americans prefer some sort of ethnic food over their own ethnicity. Did you even read the quoted text?
Chinatown is only an defense if the average 4th generation Chinese significantly under-performed the American average in educational attainment and income. That's not the case. Chinatown is meaningless in this conversation.
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I found their conclusion to be lack luster and reaching. I don’t see a problem that has anything to do with “assimilation” or is any real reason that should factor into the discussion of immigration at all. Lack of opportunity, college acceptance and other metrics in 4th generation Chinese could have thousands of factors that have nothing to do with them being “more American” and adopting our culture.
And gee, I wonder why the EU immigrants achieved more and got father up the earning ladder than the Chinese or Mexican immigrants? I wonder what other factors could have contributed that were totally beyond the control of the immigrants.
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On January 29 2016 05:24 Plansix wrote:
I found their conclusion to be lack luster and reaching. I don’t see a problem that has anything to do with “assimilation” or is any real reason that should factor into the discussion of immigration at all. Lack of opportunity, college acceptance and other metrics in 4th generation Chinese could have thousands of factors that have nothing to do with them being “more American” and adopting our culture.
And gee, I wonder why the EU immigrants achieved more and got father up the earning ladder than the Chinese or Mexican immigrants? I wonder what other factors could have contributed that were totally beyond the control of the immigrants.
Also, note that there's actually a big gap in achievement among different Asian communities. My parents were part of the wave of educated immigrants in the 70's/80's and did well, and I'm in a good spot. On the other hand, you have some groups of Cambodian, Hmong, Vietnamese who aren't doing so hot even after a few generations here.
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On January 29 2016 05:24 Plansix wrote:
And gee, I wonder why the EU immigrants achieved more and got father up the earning ladder than the Chinese or Mexican immigrants? I wonder what other factors could have contributed that were totally beyond the control of the immigrants.
Why should we care? If there is no shortage of people wanting to immigrate to the US, why not just take all the great ones? We have no incentive to let in people from countries that have a lower % chance of being fruitful and integrated.
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isn't that literally engraved on the statue of liberty or something? Mother of exiles, give me your tired and poor and so on?
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On January 29 2016 05:59 Nyxisto wrote:
isn't that literally engraved on the statue of liberty or something? Mother of exiles, give me your tired and poor and so on?
There's a lot of silly things printed here and there that have no relevance. Let's interpret that directly. Let's allow every exile and every "poor" person. There is no reason to place a limitation on the number, as it is printed on the statue of liberty.
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On January 29 2016 06:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 05:59 Nyxisto wrote:
isn't that literally engraved on the statue of liberty or something? Mother of exiles, give me your tired and poor and so on? There's a lot of silly things printed here and there that have no relevance. Let's interpret that directly. Let's allow every exile and every "poor" person. There is no reason to place a limitation on the number, as it is printed on the statue of liberty.
Well you get into that dark world of denying people based on race. And the metrics are all based on the study of past performance of several generations of that race.
“So we are going to deny you because 80 years ago we accepted people from your country and their great grand kids didn’t live up to our standards,”
Lets not even get how much trouble Chinese immigrants had when they came to the US due to straight up racism. Like during the San Francisco fire/earthquake water was routed away from China Town so it would burn.
Really, if we were accepting the best and only the best throughout history, a lot of our families wouldn't' be in the US.
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On January 29 2016 06:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 06:04 Mohdoo wrote:On January 29 2016 05:59 Nyxisto wrote:
isn't that literally engraved on the statue of liberty or something? Mother of exiles, give me your tired and poor and so on? There's a lot of silly things printed here and there that have no relevance. Let's interpret that directly. Let's allow every exile and every "poor" person. There is no reason to place a limitation on the number, as it is printed on the statue of liberty. Well you get into that dark world of denying people based on race. And the metrics are all based on the study of past performance of several generations of that race. “So we are going to deny you because 80 years ago we accepted people from your country and their great grand kids didn’t live up to our standards,” Lets not even get how much trouble Chinese immigrants had when they came to the US due to straight up racism. Like during the San Francisco fire/earthquake water was routed away from China Town so it would burn. Really, if we were accepting the best and only the best throughout history, a lot of our families wouldn't' be in the US.
I mean, besides the whole country is built by indentured servants and all that shit, I don't see a problem.
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On January 29 2016 02:49 Mohdoo wrote:
To be fair, do we really want immigrants who can't afford a few thousand bucks?
On January 29 2016 06:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 05:59 Nyxisto wrote:
isn't that literally engraved on the statue of liberty or something? Mother of exiles, give me your tired and poor and so on? There's a lot of silly things printed here and there that have no relevance. Let's interpret that directly. Let's allow every exile and every "poor" person. There is no reason to place a limitation on the number, as it is printed on the statue of liberty.
It's either keep the statue of Liberty and not refuse poor migrants or tear it down. We can't have a giant beacon telling poor people to come here and then refuse them when they don't have enough money.
Problem is people want to keep the dream of America without living up to the responsibilities that dream entails.
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We are open to poor people immigrating here. That doesn't mean it's open season for all poor people in this world to get into the US. You really want to let in millions, if not billions, of poor people into the US just because they want to? Use your head.
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Uncritical literalism is the language of the retarded. C'mon, people. Pointing at what's written on the Statute of Liberty is not the basis for sane immigration policy.
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Define poor. Because if someone is coming here for seasonable labor, but is poor by US standards, I don't see any problem. No one is talking about unfiltered immigration, you seem to have gotten there all on your own.
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EPT
