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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2715

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22610 Posts
January 05 2016 10:53 GMT
#54281
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12004 Posts
January 05 2016 12:03 GMT
#54282
On January 05 2016 13:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 13:12 cLutZ wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.


I've been trying to impress this upon people in this thread for quite a while...to little effect: If you aren't willing to kill someone over something, you don't actually think there should be a law about it.


....no one agrees with that line of thinking because it's stupid as hell. It's completely devoid of any rational or nuanced thought. You're just taking things to their extremes, its the worst case of black or white possible.

Unless you're willing to KILL for something it shouldn't be against the law. Hmm, very intelligent and thought provoking.

I think reading someone else's mail should be against the law. Makes sense, it's their property, its private correspondence meant for them, it could contain privileged and sensitive information, no logical person would say otherwise. If someone opens something in my mail am I willing to go and shoot them? Do I want the police to send the SWAT team to kill them? No, that's fucking retarded.

Smart people see nuance, they're able to evaluate a situation and see shades of grey. They don't just instantly distill everything down to "IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO KILL....". Stealing should be illegal, not willing to shoot someone over the money in my wallet or the TV on my wall. Not every situation turns into kill or let it go unless you're a psychopath.

This is the same bullshit line of argument that is "All taxation is theft by threat of death!". It's a joke made up by the feeble minded to persuade others with feeble minds.

No one takes that seriously because its not serious.


Thanks. I wanted to write something along those lines, but then i remembered that we had this same discussion before, and apparently it didn't leave any impact on cLutZ. Some people just cling to their ideas without any ability of changing them, because they are convinced that they are way edgier than everyone else.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 05 2016 14:19 GMT
#54283
On January 05 2016 18:57 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 16:47 Silvanel wrote:
So the siege (in Oregon) is ongoing? Its hard to find some definitive answers.


Well it's not really a siege according to Time.com:

http://time.com/4167006/oregon-militia-standoff-ranchers-fbi/?xid=homepage

They're kind of giving them the North Korea treatment and saying they're just throwing a tantrum but it's not a real threat. I believe Obama called it a local law enforcement matter.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 05 2016 15:29 GMT
#54284
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 16:12:14
January 05 2016 16:11 GMT
#54285
With only weeks before GOP primary voters first cast their ballots, the level of alarm among establishment Republicans about the enduring dominance of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz is reaching new heights.

In private conversations with several former aides, Mitt Romney, who in March will keynote the National Republican Congressional Committee’s annual fundraising dinner, has expressed rising frustration about Trump’s prolonged lead in polls and has argued that the real-estate mogul could inflict lasting damage on the party’s brand.

In Washington and elsewhere, meanwhile, Republicans are on the hunt for a political entity that can be used to stop Trump. In recent weeks, Alex Castellanos, a veteran TV ad man who was a top adviser to George W. Bush and Romney, has been meeting with top GOP operatives and donors to gauge interest in launching an anti-Trump vehicle that would pummel the Manhattan businessman on the television airwaves.

Those who’ve met with Castellanos say he’s offered detailed presentations on how such an offensive would play out. Castellanos has said that an anti-Trump ad campaign, which would be designed to cast him as a flawed strongman, would cost well into the millions. It was unclear, the sources said, whether Castellanos, who did not respond to a request for comment, would ultimately go through with the effort.

One growing worry about Trump or Cruz, top party officials, donors, and operatives across the country say, is that nominating either man would imperil lawmakers in down-ballot races, especially those residing in moderate states and districts.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 05 2016 16:18 GMT
#54286
If Rubio doesn't win one of the first few states, I think it's officially Cruz vs Trump. It's also interesting to see the establishment can't wrap it's head around how much less effective TV ads are nowadays.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 05 2016 16:21 GMT
#54287
The armed militiamen occupying a federal building in rural, eastern Oregon won't have power there for long, according to a Tuesday morning report in The Guardian.

An anonymous source in Washington, D.C. told The Guardian that federal authorities planned to cut power at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near the small town of Burns, Oregon.

“It’s in the middle of nowhere,” the unnamed government official told The Guardian. “And it’s flat-ass cold up there.”

The source told the Guardian that they didn't have any information about the FBI's plan of action, but said the National Park Service (called the US Park Service by The Guardian) planned to cut the outpost's power.

The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is under the jurisdiction of the Fish and Wildlife Service. A statement on the Malheur webpage says the refuge is closed until further notice. The National Park Service's role was not immediately clear.

“After they shut off the power, they’ll kill the phone service,” the official told The Guardian. “Then they’ll block all the roads so that all those guys have a long, lonely winter to think about what they’ve done.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8760 Posts
January 05 2016 16:22 GMT
#54288
On January 06 2016 01:18 Mohdoo wrote:
If Rubio doesn't win one of the first few states, I think it's officially Cruz vs Trump. It's also interesting to see the establishment can't wrap it's head around how much less effective TV ads are nowadays.


yeah but then it's basically lights out for a republican presidency imho. they are not appealing at all to independents and/or "the middle". not withstanding their awful tax plans lol. even the economist says the tax plans are out of this world and financially not feasible.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
January 05 2016 16:22 GMT
#54289
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.

A man was convicted of domestic terrorism for an act he already served prison time for just because he didn't want to sell his land to the government. The Bureau of Land Management have pressured and thugged the ranchers in the area to sell their land for 50 years, denying access to water that was already paid for, fencing off and blocking access between two parts of privet property and so on.

So he goes to jail for 2 years because of a backfire, refuses to sell his land for the 50th time, then the BLM goes 'no,no,no what he did is actually terrorism(???)' so they reopen the case and sentence him again to 5 years in jail for something he has already been punished for. According to the 5th amendment the US government is violating the constitution and the Hammond's have every right to protest.

That said, I don't agree with these methods but what power do you actually have against the government when that government starts competing against the people for land and uses its own laws to gain an unfair advantage? I'm actually appalled by the way the media has been covering this, not one mention of the backstory to this standoff. Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
January 05 2016 16:29 GMT
#54290
On January 06 2016 01:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.
Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?


No one is going to. As soon as their socioeconomic position was established by their interviews, it was a lost cause. They are just rednecks mad at the government who took it too far by bringing guns. They are, if anything, discouraging people from carrying the fight because there is so much negative image created by these terrorists. Who is going to say "yeah, us too!"?
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
January 05 2016 16:30 GMT
#54291
I wouldn't have thought that someone could leave so much information out, portrait it so onesided - until i read who wrote it.

On track to MA1950A.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 16:35:48
January 05 2016 16:32 GMT
#54292
On January 06 2016 01:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.

A man was convicted of domestic terrorism for an act he already served prison time for just because he didn't want to sell his land to the government. The Bureau of Land Management have pressured and thugged the ranchers in the area to sell their land for 50 years, denying access to water that was already paid for, fencing off and blocking access between two parts of privet property and so on.

So he goes to jail for 2 years because of a backfire, refuses to sell his land for the 50th time, then the BLM goes 'no,no,no what he did is actually terrorism(???)' so they reopen the case and sentence him again to 5 years in jail for something he has already been punished for. According to the 5th amendment the US government is violating the constitution and the Hammond's have every right to protest.

That said, I don't agree with these methods but what power do you actually have against the government when that government starts competing against the people for land and uses its own laws to gain an unfair advantage? I'm actually appalled by the way the media has been covering this, not one mention of the backstory to this standoff. Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?


It's not double jeopardy at all. They weren't re-tried, they were re-sentenced. It happens all the time.

You may think mandatory minimums are stupid (which they generally are) but a judge can't just ignore them. The judge doesn't set the law, legislators do. So the judge made an illegal mistake (literally illegal), the prosecution appealed and the federal court corrected. It was a guaranteed outcome.

And how were they tried? First a grand jury, then a jury of their peers. The legal system acted as it's supposed to.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22610 Posts
January 05 2016 16:33 GMT
#54293
they were convicted of Federal Arson but the judge lowered the sentence below the mandatory minimum. A higher court ruled there was insufficient reason for the reduction so they now have to serve the actual minimum sentence (5 years) there was no re conviction. there was no double jeopardy. Its simple basic judicial process.

The convicted actually did not protest it and have reported to jail to serve their time. The people occupying the federal building have no affiliation with the convicted and the convicted have publicly distanced themselves from the action.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 16:44:58
January 05 2016 16:38 GMT
#54294
On January 06 2016 01:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 01:22 zeo wrote:
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.
Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?


No one is going to. As soon as their socioeconomic position was established by their interviews, it was a lost cause. They are just rednecks mad at the government who took it too far by bringing guns. They are, if anything, discouraging people from carrying the fight because there is so much negative image created by these terrorists. Who is going to say "yeah, us too!"?

Well, it was also just reported that one of the Bundy assholes, who runs the transportation company and made a FB post about the government intruding on business, took a $530,000 federal small business loan in 2010. They're not even low class. They're middle class hypocrites who don't realize how much the federal government helps them. That's on top of their father who grazes his cattle at 1967 market rates because of a different federal program.

This is the climate we've created. It's the same mentality as people decrying welfare, and then taking their mortgage interest deduction.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 05 2016 16:41 GMT
#54295
They come from some part of the country with low population, a poor tax base, poorly funded infrastructure and then blame the federal government for everything. They claim their way of life is under attack by the “government”, rather that the changing times.

And of course the BLM gets a bad rap, because they have to deal with groups of these people nationwide and these folks live to drum up stories and conspiracy theories.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
January 05 2016 16:42 GMT
#54296
On January 06 2016 01:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 01:22 zeo wrote:
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.
Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?


No one is going to. As soon as their socioeconomic position was established by their interviews, it was a lost cause. They are just rednecks mad at the government who took it too far by bringing guns. They are, if anything, discouraging people from carrying the fight because there is so much negative image created by these terrorists. Who is going to say "yeah, us too!"?

I wouldn't call them terrorists, more role-playing attention seekers. But thats beside the point, how has everything become so polarized that people dismiss something just because someone they don't like supports it, no matter how right they are.

'No way the Earth is round bro, just because those bigot republicans say its round doesn't make it so, educate yourself'
'Fucking hippies saying gravity exists'

Kind of extreme but you get the point. Someone in your country is getting royally screwed by the government, the constitution is being stepped on, but you won't help them because they have a rural culture? The fuck? The media is also playing a shitty role in all this taking sides and pushing narratives, sure picking up a gun and occupying a government building is wrong but so is bullying and bankrupting your own citizens so you can buy up their land.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 05 2016 16:44 GMT
#54297
The single biggest contributor to climate change in California is a blown-out natural gas well more than 8,700ft underground, state authorities and campaign groups said Monday.

The broken well at the Aliso Canyon natural gas storage site has released more than 77,000 metric tons of the powerful climate pollutant methane since the rupture was first detected on 23 October, according to a counter created by the Environmental Defense Fund.

Methane is a fast-acting climate pollutant – more than 80 times more powerful than carbon dioxide over a 20-year time frame.

Experts believe the breach, which has forced the evacuation of hundreds of residents from the town of Porter Ranch, is the largest ever in the US.

Locals have complained of headaches, sore throats, nosebleeds and nausea, caused by the rotten-egg smell of the odorant added to the gas to aid leak detection by SoCalGas, the utility that operates the natural gas storage site.

About 1,000 people are suing the company. There are also concerns about the leak’s effect on smog and ozone. The company said it was monitoring air quality.

The leak is unlikely to be brought under control before late February – and even that timetable depends on work crews’ success in locating and plugging a 7-inch pipe deep underground.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
January 05 2016 16:51 GMT
#54298
On January 06 2016 01:42 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 01:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 06 2016 01:22 zeo wrote:
On January 06 2016 00:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On January 05 2016 19:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2016 12:46 Mohdoo wrote:
The fact that these guys are guaranteed going to prison makes me think they may actually make a violent last stand. Their lives are basically over at this point. Either they go down fighting or spend their lives in prison.

Why are they guaranteed to go to prison?
They have previously held an armed standoff with the government over grazing rights and did not go to jail for that either.

If news of this dies down quick enough I fully expect the government to give them what they want and let them walk away because they want to avoid a confrontation going bad and making national news as a bloodbath.


They are essentially asking a giant portion of land be completely handed over for locals to do as they please. That is so utterly impossible. There's no way they will get that. It's insane.
Would anyone really look into how corrupt the BLM really is if these guys hadn't decided to sit down on public property with guns?


No one is going to. As soon as their socioeconomic position was established by their interviews, it was a lost cause. They are just rednecks mad at the government who took it too far by bringing guns. They are, if anything, discouraging people from carrying the fight because there is so much negative image created by these terrorists. Who is going to say "yeah, us too!"?

I wouldn't call them terrorists, more role-playing attention seekers. But thats beside the point, how has everything become so polarized that people dismiss something just because someone they don't like supports it, no matter how right they are.

'No way the Earth is round bro, just because those bigot republicans say its round doesn't make it so, educate yourself'
'Fucking hippies saying gravity exists'

Kind of extreme but you get the point. Someone in your country is getting royally screwed by the government, the constitution is being stepped on, but you won't help them because they have a rural culture? The fuck? The media is also playing a shitty role in all this taking sides and pushing narratives, sure picking up a gun and occupying a government building is wrong but so is bullying and bankrupting your own citizens so you can buy up their land.

The Constitution isn't being stepped on, and doing something illegal that leads to being punished is not tantamount to being royally screwed by the government.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
January 05 2016 17:03 GMT
#54299
On January 06 2016 01:33 Gorsameth wrote:
they were convicted of Federal Arson but the judge lowered the sentence below the mandatory minimum. A higher court ruled there was insufficient reason for the reduction so they now have to serve the actual minimum sentence (5 years) there was no re conviction. there was no double jeopardy. Its simple basic judicial process.

The convicted actually did not protest it and have reported to jail to serve their time. The people occupying the federal building have no affiliation with the convicted and the convicted have publicly distanced themselves from the action.

In 2001 they lit a backfire to contain a forest fire going on in federal land because of some lighting storms, accidentally burned down 140ha of government land. No charges were pressed. In 2006, same thing happened except this time they arrested the Hammond's on arson charges after he told them he would not sell his land.

The judge thought its would be a gross miscarriage of justice to send someone to jail for 5 years because of a back fire so he went to jail for one. When he came out the government approached him again to buy his land, he refused. After that they decided to chase after him for the full 5 year term.

Thats the problem I see in all this. If he had sold all his land to the government they would never have gone after him again. How is it this mans fault the judge let him off with a lighter sentence? That whole time no one lifted their hand and said 'well, you can't do this, it has to be 5 years', before they went to jail, while they were in jail and after they got out of jail, only after they refused to sell their land again did the BLM start digging for anything they could get them with. So they served their time for that crime and bringing it up again is punishing them twice.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 17:14:24
January 05 2016 17:13 GMT
#54300
You do realize those are their claims as to why they did it and even the jury didn’t believe them. People claim a lot of stuff when do they illegal things. And lighting fires to protect your land isn’t legal. Call the fire department.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson.

Sometimes it takes years for that key witness to come forward. Just because they didn’t press charges doesn’t mean they were not trying to build a case.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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