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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2647

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 03:47:19
December 11 2015 03:46 GMT
#52921
/discuss



Over HALF of Muslims around the world want Sharia Law as official law. About the same as Muslims polled in the US.

source for video: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 03:56:36
December 11 2015 03:50 GMT
#52922
On December 11 2015 12:32 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 12:25 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:22 xDaunt wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:15 m4ini wrote:
edit, nvm

Edit: For the record, I agree with what the judge is saying. That should give you pause.


Funny, considering he contradicts your argument.

No, he doesn't.

Just for shits and giggles, what do you think my argument is?


That having tribunals for certain religions etc prevents assimilation,


Prevents? No. It is evidence of the difficulty of assimilating a population.

Show nested quote +
and that ruling under sharia law somehow is a bad thing, neglecting the fact that this is done for jews etc as well.

Nope. Haven't argued this at all. I've merely pointed out how the system works. For the sake of clarity, I agree with the right of Muslims (or any other religion) to use arbitration in the way that MAT does because I believe in the freedom of parties to contract with one another. That said, there are large portions of Sharia Law that I vehemently disagree with.


You have the same "problem" with japanese, chinese, or jews. They don't assimilate well, but they do integrate - and that's the important part.

It's purely ideological chestbeating to state "it's not enough to accept my values, you need to share them. Who gives a shit? Lets be honest now. What's the difference between accepting and sharing certain views/values, other than you assuming that yours are better, so you feel insulted if somebody says "well okay, i abide, but meh"?

You can integrate muslims, and while i agree that it's not easy, it's certainly neither impossible or particularly hard. It just means "effort".

And as a german, in 2006 and 2014, we saw the difference between assimilation and integration first hand. And that was quite surprising, let me tell you.

edit:

Over HALF of Muslims around the world want Sharia Law as official law. About the same as Muslims polled in the US.

source for video: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/


Bringing up the same shit that was already debunked dozens of pages back doesn't really help your cause.
On track to MA1950A.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
December 11 2015 04:03 GMT
#52923
On December 11 2015 12:50 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 12:32 xDaunt wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:25 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:22 xDaunt wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:15 m4ini wrote:
edit, nvm

Edit: For the record, I agree with what the judge is saying. That should give you pause.


Funny, considering he contradicts your argument.

No, he doesn't.

Just for shits and giggles, what do you think my argument is?


That having tribunals for certain religions etc prevents assimilation,


Prevents? No. It is evidence of the difficulty of assimilating a population.

and that ruling under sharia law somehow is a bad thing, neglecting the fact that this is done for jews etc as well.

Nope. Haven't argued this at all. I've merely pointed out how the system works. For the sake of clarity, I agree with the right of Muslims (or any other religion) to use arbitration in the way that MAT does because I believe in the freedom of parties to contract with one another. That said, there are large portions of Sharia Law that I vehemently disagree with.


You have the same "problem" with japanese, chinese, or jews. They don't assimilate well, but they do integrate - and that's the important part.

It's purely ideological chestbeating to state "it's not enough to accept my values, you need to share them. Who gives a shit? Lets be honest now. What's the difference between accepting and sharing certain views/values, other than you assuming that yours are better, so you feel insulted if somebody says "well okay, i abide, but meh"?

You can integrate muslims, and while i agree that it's not easy, it's certainly neither impossible or particularly hard. It just means "effort".

And as a german, in 2006 and 2014, we saw the difference between assimilation and integration first hand. And that was quite surprising, let me tell you.

edit:

Show nested quote +
Over HALF of Muslims around the world want Sharia Law as official law. About the same as Muslims polled in the US.

source for video: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/


Bringing up the same shit that was already debunked dozens of pages back doesn't really help your cause.


PEW Research is not credible now? I think you just don't want to believe it, even if there's evidence that proves it.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:05:09
December 11 2015 04:04 GMT
#52924
On December 11 2015 13:03 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 12:50 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:32 xDaunt wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:25 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:22 xDaunt wrote:
On December 11 2015 12:15 m4ini wrote:
edit, nvm

Edit: For the record, I agree with what the judge is saying. That should give you pause.


Funny, considering he contradicts your argument.

No, he doesn't.

Just for shits and giggles, what do you think my argument is?


That having tribunals for certain religions etc prevents assimilation,


Prevents? No. It is evidence of the difficulty of assimilating a population.

and that ruling under sharia law somehow is a bad thing, neglecting the fact that this is done for jews etc as well.

Nope. Haven't argued this at all. I've merely pointed out how the system works. For the sake of clarity, I agree with the right of Muslims (or any other religion) to use arbitration in the way that MAT does because I believe in the freedom of parties to contract with one another. That said, there are large portions of Sharia Law that I vehemently disagree with.


You have the same "problem" with japanese, chinese, or jews. They don't assimilate well, but they do integrate - and that's the important part.

It's purely ideological chestbeating to state "it's not enough to accept my values, you need to share them. Who gives a shit? Lets be honest now. What's the difference between accepting and sharing certain views/values, other than you assuming that yours are better, so you feel insulted if somebody says "well okay, i abide, but meh"?

You can integrate muslims, and while i agree that it's not easy, it's certainly neither impossible or particularly hard. It just means "effort".

And as a german, in 2006 and 2014, we saw the difference between assimilation and integration first hand. And that was quite surprising, let me tell you.

edit:

Over HALF of Muslims around the world want Sharia Law as official law. About the same as Muslims polled in the US.

source for video: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/


Bringing up the same shit that was already debunked dozens of pages back doesn't really help your cause.


PEW Research is not credible now? I think you just don't want to believe it, even if there's evidence that proves it.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

It helps to read it. Go back to the last time you posted this.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:06:43
December 11 2015 04:05 GMT
#52925
Oh, i did read the pages (and the subsequent ones, too).

Sadly, they have nothing to do with the video you linked, nor the statement you made.

It helps to read it. Go back to the last time you posted this.


I guess statistics to misrepresent are hard to come by, that's why he tried a second time.
On track to MA1950A.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:12:10
December 11 2015 04:10 GMT
#52926
On December 11 2015 13:05 m4ini wrote:
Oh, i did read the pages (and the subsequent ones, too).

Sadly, they have nothing to do with the video you linked, nor the statement you made.

Show nested quote +
It helps to read it. Go back to the last time you posted this.


I guess statistics to misrepresent are hard to come by, that's why he tried a second time.


LMFAO. What?! Clearly neither of you two took the time to read the article I posted. Take the total populations of the Muslim countries polled for Sharia Law and look at the percentages that want Sharia Law. That's what the video is based on, this PEW research that polled 38,000 Muslims from 37 Muslim countries in face to face interviews.

Holy shit, some people are just in complete denial and don't want to hear the truth.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 11 2015 04:14 GMT
#52927
The same thing is true about Christians.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
December 11 2015 04:17 GMT
#52928
On December 11 2015 13:14 Plansix wrote:
The same thing is true about Christians.


No, Christians don't believe in anything remotely close to Sharia Law, which is the Antithesis of the US Constitution.

"According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.” When that question was put to the broader U.S. population, the overwhelming majority held that shariah should not displace the U.S. Constitution (86% to 2%)."

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:22:29
December 11 2015 04:19 GMT
#52929
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their rigorous humanism towards removing the death penalty though.
I love how every conservative turns into a feminist and secularist as soon as Muslims join the discourse.
Doraemon
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Australia14949 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:26:38
December 11 2015 04:25 GMT
#52930
On December 11 2015 13:17 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:14 Plansix wrote:
The same thing is true about Christians.


No, Christians don't believe in anything remotely close to Sharia Law, which is the Antithesis of the US Constitution.

"According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.” When that question was put to the broader U.S. population, the overwhelming majority held that shariah should not displace the U.S. Constitution (86% to 2%)."

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/


they're not even the same question

one is what you would like to be governed by, the other is the notion of the current system being replaced. how misleading, one is about choice and one is about substitution. how is it even comparable

it's like i want the choice of strawberry or chocolate but i'm fine with vanilla, and the vanilla population wants to maintain the vanilla flavour. what is wrong with that?
Do yourself a favour and just STFU
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
December 11 2015 04:27 GMT
#52931
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.

Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 11 2015 04:28 GMT
#52932
And shockingly Christians don't mind being living under Christian laws, but don't want the current system replaced.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
December 11 2015 04:31 GMT
#52933
On December 11 2015 13:28 Plansix wrote:
And shockingly Christians don't mind being living under Christian laws, but don't want the current system replaced.


Right, unlike the majority of Muslims. Sharia Law is a religious legal system in of itself.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:35:52
December 11 2015 04:34 GMT
#52934
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”


More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah.


Apart from those two being the exact same question, just stated twice for sensationalism, it's an online poll of 600 people.

Then there's the question, what are they actually asking for. Now i don't expect you to understand, but if you'd read the very PEW poll you linked, you'd understand that what they're actually asking for is something already implemented in the UK. We literally just had that discussion.

Right, unlike the majority of Muslims. Sharia Law is a religious legal system in of itself.


And again, unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Sharia is a guideline. It literally means "path" translated.
On track to MA1950A.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:36:50
December 11 2015 04:35 GMT
#52935
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



And some amount of Christians (including Marco Rubio) want to allow their religious beliefs to supercede the law of the land.

(also, again, I hope you actually read the poll to see the definitions of Sharia law given in it; hint: there are multiple, and I'm going to take Muslims' word for what it actually means over yours)
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:44:56
December 11 2015 04:38 GMT
#52936
On December 11 2015 13:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



And some amount of Christians (including Marco Rubio) want to allow their religious beliefs to supercede the law of the land.

(also, again, I hope you actually read the poll to see the definitions of Sharia law given in it; hint: there are multiple, and I'm going to take Muslims' word for what it actually means over yours)


First: he didn't. Second: it's actually clarified in the PEW poll (subsequent page), so no need to take anyones word for that.

edit: but i'm out, whatever discussion/argument follows, it'll eventually nosedive (already did) and inevitably belly flop.
edit2: you not being the reason, to prevent a misunderstanding
On track to MA1950A.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 04:54:06
December 11 2015 04:50 GMT
#52937
On December 11 2015 13:34 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



Show nested quote +
According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”


Show nested quote +
More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah.


Apart from those two being the exact same question, just stated twice for sensationalism, it's an online poll of 600 people.

Then there's the question, what are they actually asking for. Now i don't expect you to understand, but if you'd read the very PEW poll you linked, you'd understand that what they're actually asking for is something already implemented in the UK. We literally just had that discussion.

Show nested quote +
Right, unlike the majority of Muslims. Sharia Law is a religious legal system in of itself.


And again, unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Sharia is a guideline. It literally means "path" translated.


OK, it's as if we're speaking two completely different languages. Please go and and re-read very, very carefully, including the links I provided. And you're wrong, you clearly have no idea what Sharia Law is. If you did, you'd know it's an actual religious legal system of law, not a 'guideline'. The PEW poll I linked was based on a face to face interview of 38,000 Muslims from 37 different countries. The other poll I linked (CSP) was a poll conducted on Muslims in the US and their numbers practically matched the sentiment of Muslims in the PEW poll wanting Sharia Law over the laws of the countries they are in.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
December 11 2015 04:54 GMT
#52938
On December 11 2015 13:50 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:34 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”


More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah.


Apart from those two being the exact same question, just stated twice for sensationalism, it's an online poll of 600 people.

Then there's the question, what are they actually asking for. Now i don't expect you to understand, but if you'd read the very PEW poll you linked, you'd understand that what they're actually asking for is something already implemented in the UK. We literally just had that discussion.

Right, unlike the majority of Muslims. Sharia Law is a religious legal system in of itself.


And again, unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Sharia is a guideline. It literally means "path" translated.


OK, it's as if we're speaking two completely different languages. Please go and and re-read very, very carefully, including the links I provided. And you're wrong, you clearly have no idea what Sharia Law is. If you did, you'd know it's an actual religious legal system of law, not a 'guideline'. The PEW poll I linked was based on a face to face interview of 38,000 Muslims from 37 different countries, I don't know what you're talking about.


This is hilarious. You have xDaunt trying really hard to make a reasoned argument (although clearly xenophobic as hell) then you have Esky over here just making the laziest fox news driven propaganda argument exposing who Trump is really appealing to and why xDaunt is still in the camp that more or less agrees but knows one at least has to make the effort to cover it up in rhetoric if it is to have a remote chance and being accepted outside of the circles of bigots and xenophobes who take it at face value.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doraemon
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Australia14949 Posts
December 11 2015 04:59 GMT
#52939
"should have a choice" is very different to "i want the current system to be replaced by"
Do yourself a favour and just STFU
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
December 11 2015 05:02 GMT
#52940
On December 11 2015 13:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 13:50 Eskendereya wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:34 m4ini wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:27 Eskendereya wrote:
On December 11 2015 13:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Well it's not surprising that Christians wouldn't want Sharia Law, I suspect the same people do not pray to Allah either. I would be happy if all the conservatives would channel their new-found humanism towards removing the death penalty though.


I wasn't aware of a Christian legal system equivalent to Sharia Law. The point is over half of Muslims want to implement Sharia Law in place of the legal system of whatever country they are in. Show me where over half of Christians or any other religious group wants to implement their own entire religious legal system.



According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”


More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah.


Apart from those two being the exact same question, just stated twice for sensationalism, it's an online poll of 600 people.

Then there's the question, what are they actually asking for. Now i don't expect you to understand, but if you'd read the very PEW poll you linked, you'd understand that what they're actually asking for is something already implemented in the UK. We literally just had that discussion.

Right, unlike the majority of Muslims. Sharia Law is a religious legal system in of itself.


And again, unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Sharia is a guideline. It literally means "path" translated.


OK, it's as if we're speaking two completely different languages. Please go and and re-read very, very carefully, including the links I provided. And you're wrong, you clearly have no idea what Sharia Law is. If you did, you'd know it's an actual religious legal system of law, not a 'guideline'. The PEW poll I linked was based on a face to face interview of 38,000 Muslims from 37 different countries, I don't know what you're talking about.


This is hilarious. You have xDaunt trying really hard to make a reasoned argument (although clearly xenophobic as hell) then you have Esky over here just making the laziest fox news driven propaganda argument exposing who Trump is really appealing to and why xDaunt is still in the camp that more or less agrees but knows one at least has to make the effort to cover it up in rhetoric if it is to have a remote chance and being accepted outside of the circles of bigots and xenophobes who take it at face value.


And you have Mr. Greens hallucinating here thinking the two polls I listed are in some way linked to "Fox News" while at the same time criticizing for 'lazy propaganda arguments'. Are you drunk Mr. Greens or are you just trying to be funny? You are the perfect example of someone in denial as a result of pure ignorance. I won't waste my time trying to reason with a robot.
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