US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2648

On December 11 2015 13:59 Doraemon wrote:
"should have a choice" is very different to "i want the current system to be replaced by"

On December 11 2015 14:05 Eskendereya wrote:


More of the same, denial and excuses. If %51 of Muslims want the choice of Sharia over the US Constitution, what do you really think that means? That shouldn't be a concern at all? What about the PEW poll of over half of the world's Muslim population wanting Sharia Law implemented as their choice of a legal system? Whatever, you can conclude the sky is pink when it's blue for all I care, good night!

On December 11 2015 14:03 LuckyFool wrote:
Eskendereya, keep in mind you may be arguing with people who view basically all fundamentalist religion as an equal threat to secularism. Generally from a liberal/secularist standpoint, christian law, sharia law, any "religious" law can be viewed as an equal threat (for possibly different reasons) to secularism.

As a result of this (and maybe also just ignorance, or lack of real understanding or time spent in religious study) many secularists fail to properly identify that not all religions are the same, even though from their standpoint, all religions pose equal risk to secularism.

Sharia Law calls for a theocracy, it calls for violently pushing it's views on others. Apostasy is punishable by death under Sharia Law. I'm not entirely sure why m4ini seems to be trying to defend it, or at least that's what I felt following this conversation. Sharia is a guideline that spreads religion through violence.

Christianity calls for things that may remove personal liberty, making abortion illegal for example is something that is viewed as a threat to a secularist. But this is far from being as dangerous as someone who will kill you if you refuse to accept their belief system.

When the Smithsonian displays an urn with a portrait of Jesus in urine, you may find fundamentalist Christians praying for the people who came up with the display. When Charlie Hebdo publishes satirical cartoons of Mohammad, they get shot. Someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali needs personal protection when she makes major public appearances criticizing Islam...

On December 11 2015 14:07 Doraemon wrote:


how the hell is the same? one implies that he/she is content with the current situation, the other implies something requires change.

are you scared or something?

On December 11 2015 14:03 economist_ wrote:
I'm betting 500$ trump winning the primary with my friend for this and we're opened to raising the stake. Should I do it now considering how it has developed in the new poll?

On December 11 2015 14:22 GreenHorizons wrote:

You getting some odds on that? If so, I personally suggest betting the farm. People like Esky have never talked to Muslims about Sharia Law and what it means and how it can and should coexist with Constitutional law and there are literally millions of them waiting to vote for Trump.

It's almost like they don't know that there are still states with anti-sodomy laws (despite the court saying they are unconstitutional) and people still get arrested using them.

That Ted Cruz didn't proudly go to a rally held by someone who personally advocated for killing gay people. Like we didn't have a "warrior for babies" try to slaughter innocent people, someone shoot a man in church, someone planting bombs in places from the Olympics to abortion clinics, to gay bars and plenty more incidents.

It is kind of funny how the feminist/humanist/etc of the right does come out when they can point at Muslims and say "look how much worse they are by comparison, stop looking at Christian/nationalistic fundamentalists".

On December 11 2015 14:03 LuckyFool wrote:
Eskendereya, keep in mind you may be arguing with people who view basically all fundamentalist religion as an equal threat to secularism. Generally from a liberal/secularist standpoint, christian law, sharia law, any "religious" law can be viewed as an equal threat (for possibly different reasons) to secularism.

As a result of this (and maybe also just ignorance, or lack of real understanding or time spent in religious study) many secularists fail to properly identify that not all religions are the same, even though from their standpoint, all religions pose equal risk to secularism.

Sharia Law calls for a theocracy, it calls for violently pushing it's views on others. Apostasy is punishable by death under Sharia Law. I'm not entirely sure why m4ini seems to be trying to defend it, or at least that's what I felt following this conversation. Sharia is a guideline that spreads religion through violence.

Christianity calls for things that may remove personal liberty, making abortion illegal for example is something that is viewed as a threat to a secularist. But this is far from being as dangerous as someone who will kill you if you refuse to accept their belief system.

When the Smithsonian displays an urn with a portrait of Jesus in urine, you may find fundamentalist Christians praying for the people who came up with the display. When Charlie Hebdo publishes satirical cartoons of Mohammad, they get shot. Someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali needs personal protection when she makes major public appearances criticizing Islam...

On December 11 2015 14:31 Eskendereya wrote:


Mr. Greens likes to talk out of his ass, my father is grew up in a Muslim country (Iran) and is an ex-Muslim now, something he would be killed for in many Muslim countries in accordance with Sharia Law. Luckily he moved to the US where we don't do that here.

It's funny how libs and progressives always dodge criticism of Islam by attacking Christianity instead as a way of justifying the problems with Islam itself. It's probably because Muslims are mostly non-white thus a minority which means you can't criticize them but Christianity with on the other hand, you think of White people which are OK to criticize. Libs and progressives are terrified of being called 'racists'. I think that pretty much sums up the rationale of the liberal/progressive mindset.

On December 11 2015 14:35 KwarK wrote:

Muslims extremists seem to do more batshit insane things but as a group they have no power beyond that we grant them by grossly disproportionate responses to their acting out. Terrorists do something evil, we all agree it's evil, no real debate to have. If we had an "ISIS: Good or bad?" topic I would be all over that arguing bad but we don't.

Now Christian crazies, they actually control one of the major two parties in this country. Carson's beliefs are dangerous to the world in a very real way that ISIS could never rival. Rubio's belief that religious law overrides earthly laws is antithetical to everything I believe this country should be. Then there is the active campaigning from Federal all the way down to local to use government force to push beliefs, from bullshit local laws designed purely to fuck with planned parenthood to zoning complaints against mosques to Trump's xenophobia.

ISIS are cunts but they're not a threat. I'm not saying that individual Christian extremists are literally the same as ISIS, they're not, although I suspect a lot of them probably would act the same way if you separated them from the system and society that currently empowers them to act through other means. Christian extremism is a far more real threat because there are a lot of them and they have far more power due to being an entrenched part of the system. ISIS sympathizers can shoot up a school but they can't change the curriculum. That's the difference.

Christianity is the greater threat to secularism. ISIS will lose, Christian America has made huge strides over the last century as America became increasingly hostile and insular and in an effort to define itself and its place in the world picked Christianity, rather than secularism, as a key part of its national identity. Ground has been lost.

On December 11 2015 14:35 KwarK wrote:

Muslims extremists seem to do more batshit insane things but as a group they have no power beyond that we grant them by grossly disproportionate responses to their acting out. Terrorists do something evil, we all agree it's evil, no real debate to have. If we had an "ISIS: Good or bad?" topic I would be all over that arguing bad but we don't.

Now Christian crazies, they actually control one of the major two parties in this country. Carson's beliefs are dangerous to the world in a very real way that ISIS could never rival. Rubio's belief that religious law overrides earthly laws is antithetical to everything I believe this country should be. Then there is the active campaigning from Federal all the way down to local to use government force to push beliefs, from bullshit local laws designed purely to fuck with planned parenthood to zoning complaints against mosques to Trump's xenophobia.

ISIS are cunts but they're not a threat. I'm not saying that individual Christian extremists are literally the same as ISIS, they're not, although I suspect a lot of them probably would act the same way if you separated them from the system and society that currently empowers them to act through other means. Christian extremism is a far more real threat because there are a lot of them and they have far more power due to being an entrenched part of the system. ISIS sympathizers can shoot up a school but they can't change the curriculum. That's the difference.

Christianity is the greater threat to secularism. ISIS will lose, Christian America has made huge strides over the last century as America became increasingly hostile and insular and in an effort to define itself and its place in the world picked Christianity, rather than secularism, as a key part of its national identity. Ground has been lost.

Hillary Clinton has condemned Donald Trump, calling him shameful, dangerous and declaring: “I no longer think he’s funny.”

Clinton launched her attack on the billionaire Republican frontrunner during an appearance on NBC’s Late Night with Seth Meyers on Thursday, sparking loud applause from the audience.

In the aftermath of attacks by Islamic extremists in Paris and in San Bernardino, California, Trump has called for monitoring mosques and barring Muslims from entering the United States.

“I think for weeks, you know, you and everybody else were just bringing folks to hysterical laughter and all of that,” Clinton told the host. “But now he has gone way over the line. And what he’s saying now is not only shameful and wrong – it’s dangerous.”

Trump’s rhetoric was harming the nation’s ability to fight the rise of the Islamic State, feeding the group “propaganda” it could use to recruit, Clinton said.

On December 11 2015 14:35 KwarK wrote:

Muslims extremists seem to do more batshit insane things but as a group they have no power beyond that we grant them by grossly disproportionate responses to their acting out. Terrorists do something evil, we all agree it's evil, no real debate to have. If we had an "ISIS: Good or bad?" topic I would be all over that arguing bad but we don't.

Now Christian crazies, they actually control one of the major two parties in this country. Carson's beliefs are dangerous to the world in a very real way that ISIS could never rival. Rubio's belief that religious law overrides earthly laws is antithetical to everything I believe this country should be. Then there is the active campaigning from Federal all the way down to local to use government force to push beliefs, from bullshit local laws designed purely to fuck with planned parenthood to zoning complaints against mosques to Trump's xenophobia.

ISIS are cunts but they're not a threat. I'm not saying that individual Christian extremists are literally the same as ISIS, they're not, although I suspect a lot of them probably would act the same way if you separated them from the system and society that currently empowers them to act through other means. Christian extremism is a far more real threat because there are a lot of them and they have far more power due to being an entrenched part of the system. ISIS sympathizers can shoot up a school but they can't change the curriculum. That's the difference.

Christianity is the greater threat to secularism. ISIS will lose, Christian America has made huge strides over the last century as America became increasingly hostile and insular and in an effort to define itself and its place in the world picked Christianity, rather than secularism, as a key part of its national identity. Ground has been lost.

On December 11 2015 15:01 writer22816 wrote:


Everyone knows that the Christian right is a huge problem in this country, but some of your assertions are just baffling. Carson's beliefs are more dangerous than those of ISIS? Really? That evolution was inspired by Satan and that the earth is only 6000 years old are profoundly idiotic beliefs but they are not worse than thinking it's okay to rape women and kill infidels, not by any reasonable definition of 'dangerous'. Likewise Rubio's belief is remarkable in America but, as we've discussed over the last pages, is more or less the status quo in the Muslim world.

Also a big reason why the Christian right has been gaining ground is because people on the left have not only refused to address the problem of Islamic extremism but have steadfastly sought to silence any civilized discussion on the topic with cries of 'racism' and 'bigotry' and 'Islamophobia'. This leaves the field clear to people like Trump to mouth off with whatever garbage they want.

On December 11 2015 15:25 KwarK wrote:

How are you not understanding my post? Of course creationism isn't worse than rape. But we don't have Islamic PTAs pushing for rape to be made a part of our schools. We do have Christian PTAs pushing for creationism. I literally explained this exact thing in the post you're responding to. Worse is not the same as threat. You're deflecting to "how can you complain about Christianity when ISIS are..." when I explained why, it's because ISIS are powerless megacunts whereas the Christian extremists are powerful regular cunts.

The Christian right gained most of its ground as a response to the ideological struggles of the 20th C, Islamic extremism is irrelevant to that discussion. It was part of the identity questions that the US faced when it took on the mantle of superpower. Muslims are not to blame for "In God we trust" and all that bullshit.

On December 11 2015 15:02 Wegandi wrote:


Just chucking this out there, but you can't claim that "muslim extremists" is solely exclusive to ISIS, and then act like the GOP are their equivalents. I mean, that's pretty silly. The GOP isn't appealing (nor are the Dems), but they aren't a theocratic fundamentalist party. Are you going to recognize Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states in general (Yemen, UAE, et. al.), Pakistan, Afghanistan, Northern African countries like Libya (I really got to give thanks to the fine folks of France and the US for that one...bang up job.), Erdogon in Turkey, Chechnya, etc. Salafism and Wahhabism isn't exclusive to ISIS lmao.

Anyways, if you want to know who reaps more terror just look in the White House right now. Obama has carried out vastly more drone strikes, which kill primarily innocent folks (it's nothing new....that dearly beloved leader Clinton killed a million Iraqi children with his policies...etc.). It's not like secularism is clean either - most communists were atheists, and they killed more than European and American fascism combined. Take a guess what "religion" North Koreans follow (Dear Leader). Humans just suck in general. Most people aren't Tolstoy or Thoreau or Twain, etc.

America has always been christian - that is, the people of America by and large have been majoritarian Christian folk. That doesn't mean, the Government was Christian (though it certainly had some State churches in the early days). I happen to like Jesus as a moral figure, and hate Christianity. I identify as irreligious. Even I can see that there is a gulf between Salafism and Wahhabism and Seventh-Day Adventists/Jehova Witness/Quakers/Amish/et. al. It's like people here have a reactionary need to defend these creeds (Sala/Wahhabi/Sharia), because bigots are against them as well. Tip: you can be against both. (Oh, and trust me I can't stand most fundies either - don't get me started on dry counties, drug war, sodomy laws, State-sanctioned marriage, etc.).

On December 11 2015 13:50 Eskendereya wrote:


OK, it's as if we're speaking two completely different languages. Please go and and re-read very, very carefully, including the links I provided. And you're wrong, you clearly have no idea what Sharia Law is. If you did, you'd know it's an actual religious legal system of law, not a 'guideline'. The PEW poll I linked was based on a face to face interview of 38,000 Muslims from 37 different countries. The other poll I linked (CSP) was a poll conducted on Muslims in the US and their numbers practically matched the sentiment of Muslims in the PEW poll wanting Sharia Law over the laws of the countries they are in.