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On December 06 2015 00:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female.
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way.
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. It doesn't harm the trans person to use the appropriate restroom/changing room either. It's a convenience issue for them too.
I would bet you are quite wrong. But I don't have the energy or care enough to look up studies. Forcing someone to act in a way that is at odds with how they personally identify is psychologically damaging. Not being treated with a degree of respect and being shunned by society is damaging. Treating people as oddities isn't 'causing them no harm'.
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On December 06 2015 00:58 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female.
Actually it is, because a woman is defined as a human female. The two are tied together. You keep trying to make this about gender, when it's quite clearly a matter of sex. Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way.
What experts? The field of study for trans people is very new, and most of it just comes down to "they'll feel better if people agree with them". Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. They're identifying as a certain gender. You can't identify as a sex, as it's just an organ you have. At least understand what it is you're arguing, lol. Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 12:59 IgnE wrote:
I just find it funny that Kwark responds to hypothetical parent objections of type: "I don't want a penis near my daughter" with arguments that "trans girls are entitled to access to the same things as cis girls." Everyone who has actually given serious, critical thought to this issue should know that this is hardly a response at all. It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.
Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1]
Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16]
the number and type of sex chromosomes;
the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
the sex hormones;
the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
the external genitalia.
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different.
I understand just fine, I just used the wrong words. Sue me. My point still stands when you correct my silly mistake.
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On December 06 2015 00:59 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female.
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way.
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. It doesn't harm the trans person to use the appropriate restroom/changing room either. It's a convenience issue for them too. I would bet you are quite wrong. But I don't have the energy or care enough to look up studies. Forcing someone to act in a way that is at odds with how they personally identify is psychologically damaging. Not being treated with a degree of respect and being shunned by society is damaging. Treating people as oddities isn't 'causing them no harm'.
Oh, I'm fairly certain that a person with a penis in the "vagina room" (a far more apt name than girls' locker room) will be treated as an oddity and shunned by his/her locker mates. You seem to think that the mere admission will lead to acceptance by the other people in the room, which is very clearly not going to be the case here.
If it has a penis, it goes into the penis room. If it has a vagina, it goes into the vagina room seems like a perfectly acceptable solution here. The extremely rare intersex cases get to choose where their genitals will look least out of place (presumably, if there's boobs, they will go into the girl's rooms, and just a penis, the men's, but it's extremely rare).
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On December 06 2015 00:58 killa_robot wrote:[...] Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 12:59 IgnE wrote:
I just find it funny that Kwark responds to hypothetical parent objections of type: "I don't want a penis near my daughter" with arguments that "trans girls are entitled to access to the same things as cis girls." Everyone who has actually given serious, critical thought to this issue should know that this is hardly a response at all. It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.
Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1]
Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16]
the number and type of sex chromosomes;
the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
the sex hormones;
the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
the external genitalia.
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different.
because, and I quote The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman.
So it seems like you're wrong?
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Funny, I've never come across a room labeled 'penis room' or 'vagina and boobs room'. Is that a thing in Brazil?
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On December 06 2015 00:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female.
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way.
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. It doesn't harm the trans person to use the appropriate restroom/changing room either. It's a convenience issue for them too.
Transgender people do not share your opinion on that subject.
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Actually, they probably agree that they should use the appropriate restrooms and changing rooms. They just disagree which ones that are.
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On December 06 2015 01:07 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:58 killa_robot wrote:[...] On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 12:59 IgnE wrote:
I just find it funny that Kwark responds to hypothetical parent objections of type: "I don't want a penis near my daughter" with arguments that "trans girls are entitled to access to the same things as cis girls." Everyone who has actually given serious, critical thought to this issue should know that this is hardly a response at all. It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.
Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1]
Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16]
the number and type of sex chromosomes;
the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
the sex hormones;
the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
the external genitalia.
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different. because, and I quote Show nested quote +The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. So it seems like you're wrong?
Interesting. I thought you were going the route of where I thought they should be.
If it's just the definition then I'm not wrong. An intersex person wouldn't qualify as either sex, hence why they are categorized as intersex to begin with.
On December 06 2015 01:01 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 00:58 killa_robot wrote:On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female.
Actually it is, because a woman is defined as a human female. The two are tied together. You keep trying to make this about gender, when it's quite clearly a matter of sex. On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way.
What experts? The field of study for trans people is very new, and most of it just comes down to "they'll feel better if people agree with them". On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. They're identifying as a certain gender. You can't identify as a sex, as it's just an organ you have. At least understand what it is you're arguing, lol. On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 12:59 IgnE wrote:
I just find it funny that Kwark responds to hypothetical parent objections of type: "I don't want a penis near my daughter" with arguments that "trans girls are entitled to access to the same things as cis girls." Everyone who has actually given serious, critical thought to this issue should know that this is hardly a response at all. It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.
Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1]
Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16]
the number and type of sex chromosomes;
the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
the sex hormones;
the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
the external genitalia.
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different. I understand just fine, I just used the wrong words. Sue me. My point still stands when you correct my silly mistake.
Semantics matter greatly when it comes to gender and sex. Putting that aside though:
On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote:
Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate.
Why is there no harm in allowing the trans person to change with people of a different sex, but there is harm in allowing them to change with people of the same sex?
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On December 06 2015 01:11 Kickstart wrote:
Funny, I've never come across a room labeled 'penis room' or 'vagina and boobs room'. Is that a thing in Brazil?
No. We have male and female locker rooms. Does that refer to sex or to gender?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
dont really know what the big deal is with trans going to the restroom that their physical appearance most closely resembles.
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On December 06 2015 01:23 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 01:07 Toadesstern wrote:On December 06 2015 00:58 killa_robot wrote:[...] On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 12:59 IgnE wrote:
I just find it funny that Kwark responds to hypothetical parent objections of type: "I don't want a penis near my daughter" with arguments that "trans girls are entitled to access to the same things as cis girls." Everyone who has actually given serious, critical thought to this issue should know that this is hardly a response at all. It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.
Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1]
Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16]
the number and type of sex chromosomes;
the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
the sex hormones;
the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
the external genitalia.
People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different. because, and I quote The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. So it seems like you're wrong? Interesting. I thought you were going the route of where I thought they should be. If it's just the definition then I'm not wrong. An intersex person wouldn't qualify as either sex, hence why they are categorized as intersex to begin with. [...]
the point I was getting at is along the lines of:
1) what you said sounded like there's only that: Either a boy with a penis or a girl with a vagina and nothing else because that would be hippies doing weird shit
2) that's not the case already in other, natural situations as you just said
3) so if there is such a thing as an inbetween for that, why not take that definition and use it in general?
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As a small "out of interest" question.. What changing room do gays use?
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On December 06 2015 01:31 m4ini wrote:
As a small "out of interest" question.. What changing room do gays use?
Whichever one we get to see the most naked men in.
But, is anyone going to put forth one good reason why trans persons shouldn't be able to use the changing room of their choice? The only thing I've heard is a bunch of fuss about genitals and about how since not everyone gets to choose which changing room they use trans persons shouldn't be able to either. Neither of which are good reasons.
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On December 06 2015 01:23 Simberto wrote:
Actually, they probably agree that they should use the appropriate restrooms and changing rooms. They just disagree which ones that are.
I was addressing that it wouldn't be harmful if they were forced to use the one that doesn't corespond with their gender. They assert it's very harmful.
And let's be honest, a transgender women using a men's public bathroom isnt going to work out. What are they going to do, hike up their dress/skirt and use the urinal?
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On December 06 2015 01:37 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 01:31 m4ini wrote:
As a small "out of interest" question.. What changing room do gays use? Whichever one we get to see the most naked men in. But, is anyone going to put forth one good reason why trans persons shouldn't be able to use the changing room of their choice? The only thing I've heard is a bunch of fuss about genitals and about how since not everyone gets to choose which changing room they use trans persons shouldn't be able to either. Neither of which are good reasons.
stop pushing your au naturale agenda up in here!.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i'm not convinced about the trans argument in this instance. the very reason why there are boy and girl restrooms is not for gender segregation and social imposition of gender roles etc.
okay maybe at one point in time it was.
but the present day justification is simply to lessen tension and awkwardness,, specifically to others going to the same restroom.
the problem for trans is that going to a boys room when you think you are a girl is disrespecting to your gender identity etc. but maybe the labeling of the rooms, or the conception of them as gender divided is the problem.
if we envision the two bathrooms as a stable solution to the problem of minimizing awkwardness within the population, then it should not be a problem.
of course this solution would still not force trans to go to their 'birth sex' rooms. it leaves the choice entirely free. it would merely suggest that the best action would be to go to the room that causes the least amount of awkwardness to others.
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On December 06 2015 01:11 Kickstart wrote:
Funny, I've never come across a room labeled 'penis room' or 'vagina and boobs room'. Is that a thing in Brazil?
Obviously not, it's a made up expression that's to get the point across that the discussion isn't about gender, it's about body. Also, Bigtony was the first to use the expression, so should I be asking you if that's a thing in the US?
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On December 06 2015 01:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 01:23 Simberto wrote:
Actually, they probably agree that they should use the appropriate restrooms and changing rooms. They just disagree which ones that are. I was addressing that it wouldn't be harmful if they were forced to use the one that doesn't corespond with their gender. They assert it's very harmful. And let's be honest, a transgender women using a men's public bathroom isnt going to work out. What are they going to do, hike up their dress/skirt and use the urinal?
There are stalls in mens bathrooms too. Sometimes men do have to take a shit, and you can't really use a urinal for that.
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On December 06 2015 02:00 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 01:46 Plansix wrote:On December 06 2015 01:23 Simberto wrote:
Actually, they probably agree that they should use the appropriate restrooms and changing rooms. They just disagree which ones that are. I was addressing that it wouldn't be harmful if they were forced to use the one that doesn't corespond with their gender. They assert it's very harmful. And let's be honest, a transgender women using a men's public bathroom isnt going to work out. What are they going to do, hike up their dress/skirt and use the urinal? There are stalls in mens bathrooms too. Sometimes men do have to take a shit, and you can't really use a urinal for that.
You CAN, its just a disaster. I believe there's a southpark about this.
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EPT
