EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2609
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
On December 05 2015 14:17 Kickstart wrote: I don't see how 'it makes some people uncomfortable' is meaningful in any way. To me I think the same thing as when someone says 'I am offended by what you just said', which is 'so what'. There is no law that says you have the right to not feel uncomfortable, and no law that someone else has to change their behavior because it makes you uncomfortable. The correct answer to these complaints, as has been said, is to say 'get over it'. I know non-compassionate and primitive thinking folks don't like it when they are told 'you are being retarded, get over it', but that is just something else thy will have to get over as that is often the best way to deal with the willfully ignorant. Not sure which version of the planet you are living on, but basically every country has laws regulating the exposure of genitals in public, and no amount of hand waving and "genitals aren't scary" or "god you americans are so prudish" is going to erase the moral and philosophical opinion of huge swaths of the population. It's not a question with a black/white answer, which is why in civil societies we talk about an issue and reach a consensus. The status quo is that penises and vaginas only mix in certain conditions. What's the compelling reason to change that? Because it's more comfortable for the trans person. So why is their comfort taking precedence? Saying "Well trans girls ARE girls" adds nothing and is meaningless in a context where you're making an explicit distinction between biological sex and gender identity. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1088 Posts
I think the more interesting case is in the area of sports. We have sports teams that are "female only" to protect people born without penises. Putting women with male bodies on those teams takes away spots from the people they were designed to protect and give opportunity to. If anyone can claim a right to play on a "female only" team, then at what point do we say that "female only" sports teams are a bad idea and force everyone back into the main teams that would normally be dominated by men? When it comes to bathrooms, it seems like a really stupid long-con to pretend to be trans just so that you can get glimpses of boobs. When it comes to sports, there are some major financial incentives including free college and possibly professional sports contracts by being a woman. If decent male athletes can "feel like a woman" their senior year of high school and join the female team, then they could easily have financial incentives waiting for them. As the stigma of being trans fades and the barriers get torn down, it becomes an increasingly likely possibility. If we want to retain the institution of female sports, then we better start thinking about what the line is. "I feel like a woman" today isn't going to cut it. If you can start drawing a clear line in sports due to financial reasons, then can't the same line be drawn on bath/changing rooms even if the separation itself is a bit prudish? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
The bathroom issue is a debate that only matters on the internet. In real life we get in there, do our stuff and get the fuck out. Weird stuff only happens when weird people do weird things. And the major those people are straight/cis and can't handle public pooping. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 05 2015 13:53 KwarK wrote: It is a response. If you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter" that's fine. if you say "I don't want a penis anywhere near my daughter so take rights away from trans girls", that's where you lose my support. Some girls have penises. Cis ones don't and they are the vast majority but trans girls do exist. The rights of trans girls trump the discomfort of the parents of other girls. It is a response, some girls have penises, get over it. It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On December 05 2015 15:07 killa_robot wrote: It's rather disturbing that you actually believe this. I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
On December 05 2015 14:35 Bigtony wrote: Not sure which version of the planet you are living on, but basically every country has laws regulating the exposure of genitals in public, and no amount of hand waving and "genitals aren't scary" or "god you americans are so prudish" is going to erase the moral and philosophical opinion of huge swaths of the population. It's not a question with a black/white answer, which is why in civil societies we talk about an issue and reach a consensus. The status quo is that penises and vaginas only mix in certain conditions. What's the compelling reason to change that? Because it's more comfortable for the trans person. So why is their comfort taking precedence? Saying "Well trans girls ARE girls" adds nothing and is meaningless in a context where you're making an explicit distinction between biological sex and gender identity. You are all over the place. I never said anything about indecent exposure in public, we are talking about a trans persons rights. Status quos mean nothing when they aren't rational. The fear of trans people is not rational. The fear that some predator is going to pretend to be a girl to see some boobies is not rational (at least to the extent that it will be a real wideswept issue, if it is one at all it can easily be dealt with). Talking about an issue and reaching a reasonable consensus only works if all parties involved are reasonable and rational actors, that isn't the case with people crying about what bathroom a trans person uses. I can't believe we still have people who think that their opinions or comfort are more important that someone else's individual liberties. You lot never win when it comes down to that, I don't know how thick you have to be to not see that your opinion can not trump someone elses rights. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 05 2015 14:49 Plansix wrote: Lets be real for a second here. The bathroom is not a social space. We keep to ourselves. Women use stalls. A transwoman is going to us a stall. A transman pre-op is going to use a stall as all. Maybe a urinal post op. The only time it gets mildly social is at the sinks. If you notice a transgender person at the sink, are you really going to confront them. And what is the worst that could happen. They talk to you? You feel mildly uncomfortable while you dry your hands? They fix their make up if its a transwoman and you...have to been around someone putting on make up. The bathroom issue is a debate that only matters on the internet. In real life we get in there, do our stuff and get the fuck out. Weird stuff only happens when weird people do weird things. And the major those people are straight/cis and can't handle public pooping. Lets be real here, this is only an issue in high schools where people actually know each other in the locker room (well, most guys would probably be noticed at the gym no matter how hard they tried, naturally, but we aren't talking about people who haven't committed yet, are we?). If you walk into a bathroom at a Knicks game no one will know. The thing is, a locker room in a high school is an intimate environment where you change with people, who you know, 10 times a week to get ready for PE and leave, and possibly another 10 times for sporting events. And the issue is with line drawing, wherein a large % of the transgender movement wants acceptance of the change the second the transgendered person makes the statement, and won't accept things like Judicial and Medical preclearance. Moreover, the evidence is that this movement is never satisfied with their successes so eventually if you don't want to rent a spare room to someone you generally dislike (that happens to be transgender) there will be a cause of action against you. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On December 05 2015 15:23 Kickstart wrote: You are all over the place. I never said anything about indecent exposure in public, we are talking about a trans persons rights. Status quos mean nothing when they aren't rational. The fear of trans people is not rational. The fear that some predator is going to pretend to be a girl to see some boobies is not rational (at least to the extent that it will be a real wideswept issue, if it is one at all it can easily be dealt with). Talking about an issue and reaching a reasonable consensus only works if all parties involved are reasonable and rational actors, that isn't the case with people crying about what bathroom a trans person uses. I can't believe we still have people who think that their opinions or comfort are more important that someone else's individual liberties. You lot never win when it comes down to that, I don't know how thick you have to be to not see that your opinion can not trump someone elses rights. This rights framing of the issue is idiotic. Why don't all men have the right to use any changing room? Why do we segregate the rooms in the first place? This isn't about gender. This is about genitals. Since Kwark won't answer me, maybe you will. Which changing room do gender-queer individuals use? Gender-fluid individuals? | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
On December 05 2015 15:58 IgnE wrote: This rights framing of the issue is idiotic. Why don't all men have the right to use any changing room? Why do we segregate the rooms in the first place? This isn't about gender. This is about genitals. Since Kwark won't answer me, maybe you will. Which changing room do gender-queer individuals use? Gender-fluid individuals? Whichever one they want as far as I am concerned. But, I'm not scared of seeing penises or vaginas or titties. Besides, most school age children are more concerned with fitting in than with long conning their way into a changing room. The last thing they are going to do is announce to their entire community ' HEY I AM DIFFERENT THAN YOU HERE IS SOMETHING YOU CAN MAKE FUN OF ME AND OSTRACIZE ME FOR'. People who are arguing that this is a possibility worth considering are being thick. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
So you are for unisex changing rooms. Or at least you don't care who goes into what changing rooms. That's fine. It's a very fine position. But it's not the same argument as whether a trans woman should be in a women's changing room or showering area when there is a specified women's changing room. And you have copped out here on seriously addressing the question. Maybe you haven't thought about it deeply, and your first instinct is to just jump on the side of "civil rights." My point is that this rights-based, "trans girls should have the same access to everything that cis girls have access to" line of argumentation that you and kwark have been going on about is inconsistent and incoherent at best and disingenuous at worst. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
What changing room a person uses has no effect on you except for you maybe being uncomfortable. Forgive me if I don't care. Don't see what the big deal is tbh. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11820 Posts
On December 05 2015 16:39 IgnE wrote: The "long con" argument is irrelevant. So you are for unisex changing rooms. Or at least you don't care who goes into what changing rooms. That's fine. It's a very fine position. But it's not the same argument as whether a trans woman should be in a women's changing room or showering area when there is a specified women's changing room. And you have copped out here on seriously addressing the question. Maybe you haven't thought about it deeply, and your first instinct is to just jump on the side of "civil rights." My point is that this rights-based, "trans girls should have the same access to everything that cis girls have access to" line of argumentation that you and kwark have been going on about is inconsistent and incoherent at best and disingenuous at worst. Why is that incoherent? A trans girl is a girl. She is not a man acting like a girl. As such, she should be treated exactly as any other girl. This leaves only the question at what point you accept someone being a trans girl. My answer would be "When they tell you they are". Others say "When a doctor tells you they are", which is also fine. And apparently some people think "When their genitals look like a females", which is unnecessarily discriminatory and kind of unprofessional. Why do people think that they are better at judging a persons gender than a doctor, who studied the human body for years, or these people themselves, who surely know more about their own body than you do? Just because you have a very superficial definition of gender that starts and ends at the existence of penises and you think you are capable of detecting a penis when you see one doesn't mean that that is a reasonable scientific definition. Listen to professionals instead of your own preconceived notions. On a side note, this discussion also showcases a lot of low-level sexism. Why are people only concerned about trans girls? Girls are viewed as this fragile thing that needs protection from evil penises, while boys are seen as these scheming sex monsters that will do anything to get near boobs. Meanwhile, the other side of the spectrum does not appear to be threatening to anyone. Boys don't need protection from vaginas, and obviously no girl would try the same con to get into the males locker, because they are so helpless and need to be protected from penises by big strong men. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On December 05 2015 17:29 Kickstart wrote: I don't think its that big of a deal, just another instance of people crying about things for the sake of it. They don't like the idea of trans people so they are going to make a fuss about it. I agree with you that the issue is complicated, I just think that the solution is easy =], let them be where they want. What changing room a person uses has no effect on you except for you maybe being uncomfortable. Forgive me if I don't care. Don't see what the big deal is tbh. Why is it a rights issue for the trans person to use whatever bathroom / changing area they decide to use, but only a convenience issue for the rest of society? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On December 05 2015 15:58 IgnE wrote: This rights framing of the issue is idiotic. Why don't all men have the right to use any changing room? Why do we segregate the rooms in the first place? This isn't about gender. This is about genitals. Since Kwark won't answer me, maybe you will. Which changing room do gender-queer individuals use? Gender-fluid individuals? I've made the same point as you, but Kwark and co see this this issue as the transgendered person not being allowed to declare their gender by going to the intimate room that society has determined to be for their gender, which implies that gender-specific intimate rooms exist as some nonsensical relic from the past that, because can't be immediately done away with, end up only serving for gender identification. Any attempt to point out why gender-specific intimate rooms exist in the first place is met with a mockery of prudishness or is reduced to an argument about minimizing sexual harassment. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 05 2015 15:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: I don't see what's disturbing about it. It's just saying people's rights override other people's perceptions and feelings. if you say its not right your basically telling the trans perosn that because they've been marginalized by society for so long they can't do what everyone else can. They've already been marginalized to an extent and to further marginalize them because of their historical lower standing in rights serves to exasperate the problem. to put it another way the only reason people feel uncomfortable is culturally trans people have been seen as problematic or disturbed and thats cause the fact that people don't feel comfortable. so in order to break the cycle which is unfair to trans people you have to force society to face their cultural prejudices. Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way. Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 05 2015 23:57 killa_robot wrote: Except their "right" to go to the change room they identify with ultimately is just a matter of their feelings, not any sort of rights. You're trying to make it out like people who disagree are all just scared bigots, when in reality what you're asking is for us to just go along with whatever trans (or marginalized people) want so that way their feelings aren't hurt, regardless of how everyone else feels. And saying girls can have penises is just factually incorrect. The literal definition of a woman is someone with a vagina, and the literal definition of a girl is a young woman. what do you make of stuff like this? Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all.[1] Another definition states that biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth:[16] the number and type of sex chromosomes; the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles; the sex hormones; the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and the external genitalia. People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[17] The number of intersex people depends on the definition used. The Intersex Society of North America suggested that 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.[115] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to assign them to a given sex category (i.e., male or female).[31] According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[116][31] (wikipedia) | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote: That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female. It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way. Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. It doesn't harm the trans person to use the appropriate restroom/changing room either. It's a convenience issue for them too. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote: That isn't the definition of woman or girl. What is this infatuation with genitals. Being a girl entails more than having certain genitals, as does being a boy. boy/girl != male/female. Actually it is, because a woman is defined as a human female. The two are tied together. You keep trying to make this about gender, when it's quite clearly a matter of sex. On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote: It is a rights issue for trans people and a convenience issue for everyone else because I trust the trans people and the experts in the field when they say that they identify a certain way. What experts? The field of study for trans people is very new, and most of it just comes down to "they'll feel better if people agree with them". On December 06 2015 00:13 Kickstart wrote: Again, if there were an actual issue at stake other than peoples comfort levels, I might give a shit about their opinions on the matter. But as it stands, it harms no one to let a person who identifies as a certain sex use the restroom/changing room they deem appropriate. They're identifying as a certain gender. You can't identify as a sex, as it's just an organ you have. At least understand what it is you're arguing, lol. On December 06 2015 00:33 Toadesstern wrote: what do you make of stuff like this? (wikipedia) Why are you lumping intersex in with trans? The two are completely different. | ||
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