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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society).
So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost.
No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that.
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United States43296 Posts
On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own?
Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that.
I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes".
Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with.
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On December 04 2015 08:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:I don't think those "half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area" are all that likely to have had anything to do with a married couple deciding to shoot up their office party complete with assault weapons and tactical gear after storming out in a huff. I guess we'll see (though given that they're dead I'm not sure we really will). I mean, you shouldn't report your Middle Eastern coworkers for showing up at your office party. And no amount of calling the police on Middle Eastern men in the area would have prevented this event. I do think it's fascinating how some people's response to this is "see! Islam is evil!" when my response is something more like "see! It might not be a great idea to allow people to legally purchase assault weapons and tactical gear!" + Show Spoiler +I would also add that their stockpile of weaponry makes me think they might be survivalists with a different color skin than we're used to seeing in the U.S. that are scared of the government coming to take their guns away but that might blow some people's minds
I mean you note the location and ancestry, but have nothing to add to "deciding" for motivation. I guess we're supposed to shrug at alternative lifestyle decisions in general. But on to their guns and the need for gun control! Mustn't disrupt the narrative.
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On December 05 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 09:53 cLutZ wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2015 08:59 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
We don't put up with "I don't want blacks near my daughter". We tell them that while we recognize their concerns we don't share them and won't change the school system to reflect their values. I think it's more of a sex/ rape issue. Parents are worried that their daughters being naked around boys will lead to sex/ rape/ pregnancy, whereas a white daughter changing with a black girl at least has no chance of getting pregnant (although they could still experiment sexually). While racism is farrr from cured (even in schools), parents and administrators tend to get even more worked up over sexual precautions than racial ones. She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society). So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. I am seriously confused by your point. Do you have a definition, or do you merely reject definitions? Or is your definition what a person feels? Because it seems to go like this: Person A: Concerns about fake trans people. Person B: There is no reason to be concerned, being trans sucks because they have high hurdles to prove that they are trans, and they have no special rights. Thus, no one would be fake trans. A: Aren't you trying to change all those things. B: Yes. A: And when you succeed why wouldn't people be fake trans? B: ...You are a racist. So you are saying that a student would fake being trans so they could see naked girls/boys in the locker room? I want you to think about how many ways there are to see naked people and com pair them to what you are suggesting? That would be a teenager pulling the longest con for the lowest gain ever. It would be like catch me if you can, but rather than traveling all over the world and faking be a doctor, all he was was a couple sets of boobs.
I agree that the argument is stupid but at the most basic level for other reasons. Why would someone be denied their identity because of the possibility of abuse by others? The shit someone might do to get in a locker room should realistically not do anything to me, I'm not responsible for that shit...
Additionally what are we trying to prevent here? We could also try to fiddle with the notion of splitting locker rooms by sex. Why do we do this? Specifically to prevent lust? Surely not, because there are gay men in the men's locker, and there are lesbian women in the women's locker, who ogle dicks, ass and tits like the rest of us. So we're admitting that lust is fine only when it's homosexual?
But I'll go with you and say yeah, it takes a lot of dedication to see some skin by pretending you're trans, even in a world where trans people are fully accepted (which is never going to happen). I don't see why our conception of sexual identity should be determined by oddball scenarios where someone is willing to run some elaborate scheme of deception. That's not real life.
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On December 05 2015 10:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom
When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom
Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that. I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes". Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with.
Nope, we were talking about one sex transgender people (you know the thread, the article linked in the thread and the whole discussion up to the point of you starting to change the subject to intersex people) and bathroom stuff until you decided to move the goalpost from one biological sex to two sexes and starting to argue points which were made under different assumption aka one biological sex. It is the text book definition of a straw man argument
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On December 05 2015 10:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 09:55 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2015 08:59 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
We don't put up with "I don't want blacks near my daughter". We tell them that while we recognize their concerns we don't share them and won't change the school system to reflect their values. I think it's more of a sex/ rape issue. Parents are worried that their daughters being naked around boys will lead to sex/ rape/ pregnancy, whereas a white daughter changing with a black girl at least has no chance of getting pregnant (although they could still experiment sexually). While racism is farrr from cured (even in schools), parents and administrators tend to get even more worked up over sexual precautions than racial ones. She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society). So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Biologically Male, female, intersex are all well defined categories that have nothing to do with being transgender. However, (and this is a critical difference) intersex is an identifiable characteristic. Being trans is not. The law (in my state in the US, and many others) provides fairly straightforward and strict criteria for trans students. They must be allowed full access to the services/facilities of their gender identity (not their biological sex), regardless of hormone therapy/surgery/etc or stated sex on their birth certificate. Schools may provide access to a unisex facility if they want to (though that is tenuous ground, with some organizations saying that it creates an oppressive environment), but they cannot require it's use. I don't think it's reasonable at all to say "that's too bad just deal with it" when someone says "getting naked with non-partnered opposite genitals to mine makes me uncomfortable." but the law protects the trans person in this case. It's a question that does not have a simple answer. I don't think "too bad, deal with it" is a good answer or an answer that will make everyone happy. If they can find a compromise that protects the civil rights of the trans students while making other people happy I'm all for that. I am pro happiness. That is my position on happiness. I'm happy to go on the record on that one. But if someone says "I'd be happier if someone else's civil rights were denied" then that person unfortunately doesn't get happier. My stance isn't "fuck everyone else", it's civil rights come first, those are fundamental, work around them.
"Too bad, deal with it" is the answer of the law and every LGBT organization.
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On December 05 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 09:53 cLutZ wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2015 08:59 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
We don't put up with "I don't want blacks near my daughter". We tell them that while we recognize their concerns we don't share them and won't change the school system to reflect their values. I think it's more of a sex/ rape issue. Parents are worried that their daughters being naked around boys will lead to sex/ rape/ pregnancy, whereas a white daughter changing with a black girl at least has no chance of getting pregnant (although they could still experiment sexually). While racism is farrr from cured (even in schools), parents and administrators tend to get even more worked up over sexual precautions than racial ones. She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society). So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. I am seriously confused by your point. Do you have a definition, or do you merely reject definitions? Or is your definition what a person feels? Because it seems to go like this: Person A: Concerns about fake trans people. Person B: There is no reason to be concerned, being trans sucks because they have high hurdles to prove that they are trans, and they have no special rights. Thus, no one would be fake trans. A: Aren't you trying to change all those things. B: Yes. A: And when you succeed why wouldn't people be fake trans? B: ...You are a racist. So you are saying that a student would fake being trans so they could see naked girls/boys in the locker room? I want you to think about how many ways there are to see naked people and com pair them to what you are suggesting? That would be a teenager pulling the longest con for the lowest gain ever. It would be like catch me if you can, but rather than traveling all over the world and faking be a doctor, all he was was a couple sets of boobs.
No, we are talking about how Kwark is arguing that it should not be, as you say, "the long con" it would be deciding to waltz into the girls locker room. It would also not be merely for seeing boobs, because clearly heightened scrutiny in employment/housing/etc are also part of the trans platform.
The point I was making, is that the roadblocks (aka what make it a stupid long con) serve a purpose, but he (and you) is simultaneously arguing that the very things that prevent something from happening should be removed while using them as reasons that the fears (that those policies allay) are stupid.
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Some/many people are more unconfortable being around a naked/half-dressed person of the opposite sex more than they are someone of their own (hence same-sex bathroom and changing rooms) and naturally this applies to transgenders as well as cis, which leads to this situation. My question is: if the argument is that the transgendered person has the right to use the changing room where he/she is not unconfortable, why can't the same argument be applied to defend the right of the cis person who is now faced with changing in front of someone whose body makes her/him unconfortable (aka the exact same problem the transgendered person was faced with to begin)? Does the answer to this rely around "their rights have to take precedence because they already have it hard enough"?.
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On December 05 2015 10:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:00 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I think it's more of a sex/ rape issue. Parents are worried that their daughters being naked around boys will lead to sex/ rape/ pregnancy, whereas a white daughter changing with a black girl at least has no chance of getting pregnant (although they could still experiment sexually). While racism is farrr from cured (even in schools), parents and administrators tend to get even more worked up over sexual precautions than racial ones. She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society). So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Biologically Male, female, intersex are all well defined categories that have nothing to do with being transgender. However, (and this is a critical difference) intersex is an identifiable characteristic. Being trans is not. The law (in my state in the US, and many others) provides fairly straightforward and strict criteria for trans students. They must be allowed full access to the services/facilities of their gender identity (not their biological sex), regardless of hormone therapy/surgery/etc or stated sex on their birth certificate. Schools may provide access to a unisex facility if they want to (though that is tenuous ground, with some organizations saying that it creates an oppressive environment), but they cannot require it's use. I don't think it's reasonable at all to say "that's too bad just deal with it" when someone says "getting naked with non-partnered opposite genitals to mine makes me uncomfortable." but the law protects the trans person in this case. It's a question that does not have a simple answer. I don't think "too bad, deal with it" is a good answer or an answer that will make everyone happy. If they can find a compromise that protects the civil rights of the trans students while making other people happy I'm all for that. I am pro happiness. That is my position on happiness. I'm happy to go on the record on that one. But if someone says "I'd be happier if someone else's civil rights were denied" then that person unfortunately doesn't get happier. My stance isn't "fuck everyone else", it's civil rights come first, those are fundamental, work around them. "Too bad, deal with it" is the answer of the law and every LGBT organization.
Those mean minorities, demanding rights and to be treated with respect.
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United States43296 Posts
On December 05 2015 10:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:00 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I think it's more of a sex/ rape issue. Parents are worried that their daughters being naked around boys will lead to sex/ rape/ pregnancy, whereas a white daughter changing with a black girl at least has no chance of getting pregnant (although they could still experiment sexually). While racism is farrr from cured (even in schools), parents and administrators tend to get even more worked up over sexual precautions than racial ones. She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society). So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Biologically Male, female, intersex are all well defined categories that have nothing to do with being transgender. However, (and this is a critical difference) intersex is an identifiable characteristic. Being trans is not. The law (in my state in the US, and many others) provides fairly straightforward and strict criteria for trans students. They must be allowed full access to the services/facilities of their gender identity (not their biological sex), regardless of hormone therapy/surgery/etc or stated sex on their birth certificate. Schools may provide access to a unisex facility if they want to (though that is tenuous ground, with some organizations saying that it creates an oppressive environment), but they cannot require it's use. I don't think it's reasonable at all to say "that's too bad just deal with it" when someone says "getting naked with non-partnered opposite genitals to mine makes me uncomfortable." but the law protects the trans person in this case. It's a question that does not have a simple answer. I don't think "too bad, deal with it" is a good answer or an answer that will make everyone happy. If they can find a compromise that protects the civil rights of the trans students while making other people happy I'm all for that. I am pro happiness. That is my position on happiness. I'm happy to go on the record on that one. But if someone says "I'd be happier if someone else's civil rights were denied" then that person unfortunately doesn't get happier. My stance isn't "fuck everyone else", it's civil rights come first, those are fundamental, work around them. "Too bad, deal with it" is the answer of the law and every LGBT organization.
Which is why it's very useful to be able to distinguish between someone saying "I demand you make accommodations for me based upon my civil rights and things innate to my personhood such as race, gender, disability, sexual identity and so forth" and "I demand you make accommodations for me based upon how I'm offended by that and it totally makes me uncomfortable". If there were a law against gays kissing in public then "too bad, deal with it" would be the wrong answer. If someone claimed there should be because two gays kissing in public made them feel bad then "too bad, deal with it" would be the right answer.
And this isn't just about being nice to minorities, the exact same principle that protects the right of gays to kiss, even though it makes you feel bad, protects your right to bitch about them kissing, even though it makes them feel bad.
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On December 05 2015 10:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:17 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 10:00 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:On December 05 2015 09:15 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
She will be done the second some bad teen cries "sexual harassment". Her life will be destroyed by the accusation alone, regardless from wrong or right. What do you think who will be seen as the pervy? The dude wearing women clothes or blondie with tears in her eyes ( that is not necessarily my view but this is how it would be seen by general society).
So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own? Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Biologically Male, female, intersex are all well defined categories that have nothing to do with being transgender. However, (and this is a critical difference) intersex is an identifiable characteristic. Being trans is not. The law (in my state in the US, and many others) provides fairly straightforward and strict criteria for trans students. They must be allowed full access to the services/facilities of their gender identity (not their biological sex), regardless of hormone therapy/surgery/etc or stated sex on their birth certificate. Schools may provide access to a unisex facility if they want to (though that is tenuous ground, with some organizations saying that it creates an oppressive environment), but they cannot require it's use. I don't think it's reasonable at all to say "that's too bad just deal with it" when someone says "getting naked with non-partnered opposite genitals to mine makes me uncomfortable." but the law protects the trans person in this case. It's a question that does not have a simple answer. I don't think "too bad, deal with it" is a good answer or an answer that will make everyone happy. If they can find a compromise that protects the civil rights of the trans students while making other people happy I'm all for that. I am pro happiness. That is my position on happiness. I'm happy to go on the record on that one. But if someone says "I'd be happier if someone else's civil rights were denied" then that person unfortunately doesn't get happier. My stance isn't "fuck everyone else", it's civil rights come first, those are fundamental, work around them. "Too bad, deal with it" is the answer of the law and every LGBT organization. Those mean minorities, demanding rights and to be treated with respect.
Thank you for demonstrating my point. Disagreement on a philosophical and moral issue is instantly transformed into disrespect and "so they don't have rights then?" You are assuming a right to get your genitals out in a room of people with a different set of genitals where it never existed and does not exist without a redefinition of what is modest/intimate. It's been explicitly codified into our society that "this is a penis only space" and "this is a vagina only space."
To respect a trans person I have to radically change all concepts of modesty and intimate parts vs non intimate parts?
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United States43296 Posts
On December 05 2015 10:24 Sbrubbles wrote:
Some/many people are more unconfortable being around a naked/half-dressed person of the opposite sex more than they are someone of their own (hence same-sex bathroom and changing rooms) and naturally this applies to transgenders as well as cis, which leads to this situation. My question is: if the argument is that the transgendered person has the right to use the changing room where he/she is not unconfortable, why can't the same argument be applied to defend the right of the cis person who is now faced with changing in front of someone whose body makes her/him unconfortable (aka the exact same problem the transgendered person was faced with to begin)? Does the answer to this rely around "their rights have to take precedence because they already have it hard enough"?.
They're not granted the right to use the bathroom they identify with because the other one will make them feel bad. If the argument was based on minimizing feeling bad then we could kick gays out of the locker room because the straight guys might feel weird about a gay guy seeing their dick. They're allowed to use it because it is the correct bathroom for their gender identity.
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The whole "being uncomfortable among the other gender" is a largely cultural thing though and I think the US has always had a somewhat weird relationship to sexuality in that regard.
We have lots of mixed gender baths and saunas and so on because the whole free body thing was pretty big in Germany and nobody cares for the most part.
Instead of making a dozen different bathrooms I think we should rather try to get rid of the zealous classification, gender is a pretty superficial thing, the whole obsession about it both from the left and right isn't helping at all.
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United States43296 Posts
On December 05 2015 10:14 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:09 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that. I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes". Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with. Nope, we were talking about one sex transgender people (you know the thread, the article linked in the thread and the whole discussion up to the point of you starting to change the subject to intersex people) and bathroom stuff until you decided to move the goalpost from one biological sex to two sexes and starting to argue points which were made under different assumption aka one biological sex. It is the text book definition of a straw man argument
So just to clarify, you think trans people should be forced to use the bathroom of their assigned sex at birth to make sure that nobody sees anything not like theirs and gets offended but at the same time you think intersex people should get to choose which bathroom they use? And your reasoning for this is that everyone has to use their biological bathroom.
Let me know when you see the relevance of the intersex counterexample. It's not a straw man.
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Wait, why would kids change in front of someone at school? Nobody ever thought that's weird?
So all they get to see are dicks while being taught to be chaste, and people have a problem with them being homosexual?
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On December 05 2015 10:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:14 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:09 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom
As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom.
transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom.
Opposite if you transition from femalte to male.
Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that. I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes". Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with. Nope, we were talking about one sex transgender people (you know the thread, the article linked in the thread and the whole discussion up to the point of you starting to change the subject to intersex people) and bathroom stuff until you decided to move the goalpost from one biological sex to two sexes and starting to argue points which were made under different assumption aka one biological sex. It is the text book definition of a straw man argument So just to clarify, you think trans people should be forced to use the bathroom of their assigned sex at birth to make sure that nobody sees anything not like theirs and gets offended but at the same time you think intersex people should get to choose which bathroom they use? And your reasoning for this is that everyone has to use their biological bathroom. Let me know when you see the relevance of the intersex counterexample. It's not a straw man.
No, its not a straw man. Its you asking a hard question for someone's position, that they admit is a hard question. However you do not propose a values system in which that is not a hard question. So I don't understand your point.
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On December 05 2015 10:38 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2015 10:17 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 10:00 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 Bigtony wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:34 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:30 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:24 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
So what are you advocating for? Forcing a girl to use the boys locker room? Building dozens of different locker rooms? (This could actually work, just have stalls for everyone instead of two big locker rooms. More expensive though) Just ignoring the whole situation and hoping it goes away on its own?
Fact is, it is hard to be trans. Do we really have to try to make it harder for them? I generally like the idea of compassion. Just be nice to people. As long as biologically a dude= guy's bathroom When biologically 100% girl= girls bathroom Any other suggestion will open up the transgender's destruction by wrong or right accusations by other teens. What do you think? This decision will hardly be unanimous and without opposition. Some teenage girl might just scream sexual harassment ala the dude grabbed my tits and then his life on that institution will be over. Please define biological gender and please, make it all encompassing so that we can finally have no grey, just black and white. As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom. transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom. Opposite if you transition from femalte to male. Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Biologically Male, female, intersex are all well defined categories that have nothing to do with being transgender. However, (and this is a critical difference) intersex is an identifiable characteristic. Being trans is not. The law (in my state in the US, and many others) provides fairly straightforward and strict criteria for trans students. They must be allowed full access to the services/facilities of their gender identity (not their biological sex), regardless of hormone therapy/surgery/etc or stated sex on their birth certificate. Schools may provide access to a unisex facility if they want to (though that is tenuous ground, with some organizations saying that it creates an oppressive environment), but they cannot require it's use. I don't think it's reasonable at all to say "that's too bad just deal with it" when someone says "getting naked with non-partnered opposite genitals to mine makes me uncomfortable." but the law protects the trans person in this case. It's a question that does not have a simple answer. I don't think "too bad, deal with it" is a good answer or an answer that will make everyone happy. If they can find a compromise that protects the civil rights of the trans students while making other people happy I'm all for that. I am pro happiness. That is my position on happiness. I'm happy to go on the record on that one. But if someone says "I'd be happier if someone else's civil rights were denied" then that person unfortunately doesn't get happier. My stance isn't "fuck everyone else", it's civil rights come first, those are fundamental, work around them. "Too bad, deal with it" is the answer of the law and every LGBT organization. Those mean minorities, demanding rights and to be treated with respect. Thank you for demonstrating my point. Disagreement on a philosophical and moral issue is instantly transformed into disrespect and "so they don't have rights then?" You are assuming a right to get your genitals out in a room of people with a different set of genitals where it never existed and does not exist without a redefinition of what is modest/intimate. It's been explicitly codified into our society that "this is a penis only space" and "this is a vagina only space." To respect a trans person I have to radically change all concepts of modesty and intimate parts vs non intimate parts?
Sometimes we have to do things that make us uncomfortable in society to accommodate the disenfranchised. Freedom of speech require me to put up with Trump and the existence of his supporters in public.
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On December 05 2015 10:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:14 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:09 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:39 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom
As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom.
transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom.
Opposite if you transition from femalte to male.
Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that. I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes". Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with. Nope, we were talking about one sex transgender people (you know the thread, the article linked in the thread and the whole discussion up to the point of you starting to change the subject to intersex people) and bathroom stuff until you decided to move the goalpost from one biological sex to two sexes and starting to argue points which were made under different assumption aka one biological sex. It is the text book definition of a straw man argument So just to clarify, you think trans people should be forced to use the bathroom of their assigned sex at birth to make sure that nobody sees anything not like theirs and gets offended but at the same time you think intersex people should get to choose which bathroom they use? And your reasoning for this is that everyone has to use their biological bathroom. Let me know when you see the relevance of the intersex counterexample. It's not a straw man.
One sex:
As I wrote, biological sex. As long as either primary or secondary sex characteristics of a male= men's bathroom
As soon as primary and secondary sex characteristics of female0women's bathroom.
transition period while not being the finished article men's bathroom.
Opposite if you transition from femalte to male.
Two sex/ hermaphrodit:
Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again.
Yeah that comes across really smug
It is just copied and pasted without editing. the position is coherent. EDIT: Well i still edited for initially copy&pasting the wrong post.
One sex transgender biological male: use mail bathroom until finished product and 100% woman then female bathroom and vice versa.
Two sex: use the bathroom of your dominant biological sex If 50/50 hermaphrodit (like in one in a million people or whatever) use the bathroom of your sexual identity. Really simple.
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What blows my mind is how uptight people are about maybe catching a glance of a boob or some genitals. Though as it is, shoulders and knees are too much for teen boys to handle apparently.
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United States43296 Posts
On December 05 2015 10:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:48 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 10:14 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:09 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 10:05 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 10:02 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:59 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:55 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2015 09:51 AngryMag wrote:On December 05 2015 09:42 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately for you it's not that simple. People get born with all sorts. It's not an either or. Please try again. Other dude is right, you are being or pretend to be obtuse. If you are a hermaphrodit you visit the bathroom of your dominant sex/ sexual identity.. Not that would be what we are talking about in this specific thread. And it is not unfortunate for me, I don't care. So far no one over here really turned this into an issue aaand I am in the workforce where even fewer people care to invest time and ressources into an non issue that won't even concern 1% of the workforce. If the need arises people will just find an individual solution. So according to you hermaphrodites get to visit the bathroom that most closely matches their identity, not necessarily what they have going on down below. Interesting. Unfortunately for you it is not that simple.Some people are fifty/fifty. They can choose according to their sexual identity. Others have dominant biological sexes, they choose their bathroom according to their dominant sex. Please try again. Yeah that comes across really smug And what about the parents of the children crying out "she may identify as a girl but she has a penis" in the case of one who chooses? You understand that you lost this one right when you said that someone could choose according to their sexual identity, right? That was my point. You claimed that there was no element of choice, it was always one or the other, black or white. I challenged you to define biological sex to get you to this point where you admit that it's not always so simple and some people will always break that model. Here we are and you have lost. No what you did is you simply moved the goalpost from people we are talking about in this thread aka one biological sex to people with both biological sexes and left the assumptions from the thread related discussion aka one biological sex unchanged and get even more smug about it on top of that. I didn't move the goalposts, we're still talking about trans people. I used the example of intersex people to disprove the idea that there can be a universal rule that defines which bathroom people use and makes all parents comfortable. The reason I brought up intersex people is because you proposed a universal rule which was disproven by them. Imagine we were talking about dogs and then you said "all animals have four legs". If I then said "what about snakes?" you couldn't then go "yeah but we're talking about dogs here, why do you have to bring up snakes". Same situation. We're still talking about trans people but your universal bathroom rule to satisfy the concerns of parents regarding their kids seeing something that doesn't match what they have going on doesn't work. A rigidly defined separation based on biological sexual characteristics isn't going to work because there is no clear definition to work with. Nope, we were talking about one sex transgender people (you know the thread, the article linked in the thread and the whole discussion up to the point of you starting to change the subject to intersex people) and bathroom stuff until you decided to move the goalpost from one biological sex to two sexes and starting to argue points which were made under different assumption aka one biological sex. It is the text book definition of a straw man argument So just to clarify, you think trans people should be forced to use the bathroom of their assigned sex at birth to make sure that nobody sees anything not like theirs and gets offended but at the same time you think intersex people should get to choose which bathroom they use? And your reasoning for this is that everyone has to use their biological bathroom. Let me know when you see the relevance of the intersex counterexample. It's not a straw man. No, its not a straw man. Its you asking a hard question for someone's position, that they admit is a hard question. However you do not propose a values system in which that is not a hard question. So I don't understand your point.
How does "let people use the facilities that match their gender identity" not resolve the issue caused by biological sex not being binary? He proposed a strict binary system to resolve a problem that is not binary but rather a spectrum and results in people being assigned something they know to be wrong. My solution addresses the spectrum by allowing people to self define (albeit with rather more effort than a facebook status update, they would need a GID diagnosis).
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EPT
