EPTAnd let's be honest, a transgender women using a men's public bathroom isnt going to work out. What are they going to do, hike up their dress/skirt and use the urinal?
Since toilets for females usually are in cabins, that's kind of a non-issue.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2611
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Since toilets for females usually are in cabins, that's kind of a non-issue. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 06 2015 01:54 oneofthem wrote: i'm not convinced about the trans argument in this instance. the very reason why there are boy and girl restrooms is not for gender segregation and social imposition of gender roles etc. okay maybe at one point in time it was. but the present day justification is simply to lessen tension and awkwardness,, specifically to others going to the same restroom. the problem for trans is that going to a boys room when you think you are a girl is disrespecting to your gender identity etc. but maybe the labeling of the rooms, or the conception of them as gender divided is the problem. if we envision the two bathrooms as a stable solution to the problem of minimizing awkwardness within the population, then it should not be a problem. of course this solution would still not force trans to go to their 'birth sex' rooms. it leaves the choice entirely free. it would merely suggest that the best action would be to go to the room that causes the least amount of awkwardness to others. is it really a problem for a restroom though? You have seperate stalls within the restroom so that's hardly an issue. Idk what shared showers are like, never had that but at least I myself wouldn't use them with other males either. That's just creepy no matter what for me. As for changing rooms before gym classes. I don't think anyone ever took off their underwear in our school as you'd just change into gym clothes. In a boys changing room at least. Maybe the girls changing room really is like you see it in porn with them undressing each other and having all kinds of lewd action right there! This all seems like people are making it a lot more complicated than it really is. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:00 Simberto wrote: There are stalls in mens bathrooms too. Sometimes men do have to take a shit, and you can't really use a urinal for that. I think you missed the part where is a transgender woman in a men's bathroom. Dressed in women's cloths. That won't draw attention to the transgender person, who already had a high risk of violence towards them due to being transgender. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:09 Plansix wrote: I think you missed the part where is a transgender woman in a men's bathroom. Dressed in women's cloths. That won't draw attention to the transgender person, who already had a high risk of violence towards them due to being transgender. That's assuming that every transgender always wears a skirt and high heels. Which obviously is not the reality. What about the transgender that still looks like a guy, dressed in everydays clothing (jeans, shirt/jumper/hoodie)? What bathroom is she using? The argument that "he/she's sticking out" works both ways. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12080 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:09 Plansix wrote: I think you missed the part where is a transgender woman in a men's bathroom. Dressed in women's cloths. That won't draw attention to the transgender person, who already had a high risk of violence towards them due to being transgender. Sorry, i misunderstood and was reading that the other way around with a pre-OP transgender man in a mens bathroom. I am just utterly confused why this seems to be such a big thing. Just let people use the bathrooms that they think they fit into the best. Why does that need any regulations? Too many people seem to be way too occupied with other peoples genitals. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22703 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:30 Simberto wrote: Sorry, i misunderstood and was reading that the other way around with a pre-OP transgender man in a mens bathroom. I am just utterly confused why this seems to be such a big thing. Just let people use the bathrooms that they think they fit into the best. Why does that need any regulations? Too many people seem to be way too occupied with other peoples genitals. The same way people are against gay marriage despite it having exactly 0 impact on themselves in any way, shape or form. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:33 Gorsameth wrote: The same way people are against gay marriage despite it having exactly 0 impact on themselves in any way, shape or form. Interesting generalization, but pretty much entirely wrong. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 06 2015 01:54 oneofthem wrote: i'm not convinced about the trans argument in this instance. the very reason why there are boy and girl restrooms is not for gender segregation and social imposition of gender roles etc. okay maybe at one point in time it was. but the present day justification is simply to lessen tension and awkwardness,, specifically to others going to the same restroom. the problem for trans is that going to a boys room when you think you are a girl is disrespecting to your gender identity etc. but maybe the labeling of the rooms, or the conception of them as gender divided is the problem. if we envision the two bathrooms as a stable solution to the problem of minimizing awkwardness within the population, then it should not be a problem. of course this solution would still not force trans to go to their 'birth sex' rooms. it leaves the choice entirely free. it would merely suggest that the best action would be to go to the room that causes the least amount of awkwardness to others. I don't think there's any coherent justification for separate gender/sex restrooms beyond "we're used to it." It's just a societal institution. I mean, again, we have single-occupant separate gender/sex restrooms. There is actually no sane reason for that besides making women wait longer to go to the bathroom. They don't lessen tension or awkwardness at all. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Cowboy64
115 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18041 Posts
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/12/05/new-york-times-calls-gun-laws-national-disgrace-in-first-front-page-editorial-in-95-years.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-top-region®ion=opinion-c-col-top-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-top-region&_r=0 i don't think gun control will solve the problem. i think its a cultural thing. but, hey, that's just me. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On December 06 2015 00:59 Kickstart wrote: I would bet you are quite wrong. But I don't have the energy or care enough to look up studies. Forcing someone to act in a way that is at odds with how they personally identify is psychologically damaging. Not being treated with a degree of respect and being shunned by society is damaging. Treating people as oddities isn't 'causing them no harm'. So you can force someone who is cis into a situation they're uncomfortable in - and that's fine. No one should care about the cis person's psychological state of mind. But you can't force someone who is trans into a situation they're uncomfortable in. That's damaging. Please explain. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:11 Cowboy64 wrote: There is a great deal of evidence that women having access to segregated bathroom spaces can decrease the risks of rape. Rural India is an example where thousands of women are exposed to rape every year because they don't have access to proper bathrooms. I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with the trans issue specifically, but I think it is relevant to the "segregated bathrooms are for prudes" argument. Toilets are underrated. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18488 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:33 Gorsameth wrote: The same way people are against gay marriage despite it having exactly 0 impact on themselves in any way, shape or form. No. Not really it at all. In this case there are other people using the same space who also have rights. The question here is whether the rights of transgender people to feel comfortable in the locker room outweighs the rights of the cisgendered people who might be discomforted by it. Because there's no fundamental human right being violated here in any case. It is a complete non-issue on the scale of human rights. They have the right to use some locker room, they just disagree on which one. Now my reasoning in this (as well as a number of other people in this thread) is as follows: locker rooms are not gender-based, they are sex-based. Therefore females stuck in a male body use the men's locker room due to the fact that they are sexually male, not because they are genderly male. I am happy to admit that I don't know the first thing about the psychological effects that this can have on either transgendered or cisgendered people. I personally do not give a shit about changing in front of the other sex, and would happily change without awkwardly wrapping a towel around my genitals on the beach if people around me didn't think it was rude. However, I also recognize that most people are a lot more selfconscious about showing their private parts and seeing those of others, and it can be an awkward situation. But the problem is, imho, not one of gender, it is one of flaunting your funny bits, and sadly for transgenders they have the funny bits of the opposite gender, in order to minimize overall awkwardness. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
Not liking the idea of certain types of people being in certain types of rooms is not the same as feeling that society has something against who you are as a person. | ||
KwarK
United States44440 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:11 Cowboy64 wrote: There is a great deal of evidence that women having access to segregated bathroom spaces can decrease the risks of rape. Rural India is an example where thousands of women are exposed to rape every year because they don't have access to proper bathrooms. I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with the trans issue specifically, but I think it is relevant to the "segregated bathrooms are for prudes" argument. Rural India is not a good comparison to schools in America. There are cultural differences there. You might as well argue that spicy food causes rape. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18488 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:20 Kickstart wrote: Being uncomfortable != damaging. If you can't see the difference I am not adequately equipped to try and explain it. Not liking the idea of certain types of people being in certain types of rooms is not the same as feeling that society has something against who you are as a person. Agreed! I just haven't seen any evidence that sharing a locker room with same-sex people is DAMAGING to transgendered people. Could be because it's a nonsense argument, or it could be because research into transgendered people has only really been taken seriously in the last 10 years (and I'm stretching it, this is an incredibly new research field, even in gender studies, let alone social or psychological fields). It could also be that I haven't looked in the right places, so enlighten me! | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:25 Acrofales wrote: Agreed! I just haven't seen any evidence that sharing a locker room with same-sex people is DAMAGING to transgendered people. Could be because it's a nonsense argument, or it could be because research into transgendered people has only really been taken seriously in the last 10 years (and I'm stretching it, this is an incredibly new research field, even in gender studies, let alone social or psychological fields). It could also be that I haven't looked in the right places, so enlighten me! well... they do face much higher threats of being hurt / murdered by people who got angry about them for whatever reason. Making people realize that it's a thing that exists would probably go a long way in reducing that risk of getting killed by someone who was angry. So wouldn't be surprised if it's actually damaging in that sense. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:34 Toadesstern wrote: well... they do face much higher threats of being hurt / murdered by people who got angry about them for whatever reason. Making people realize that it's a thing that exists would probably go a long way in reducing that risk of getting killed by someone who was angry. So wouldn't be surprised if it's actually damaging in that sense. While i agree that education in that regard would change things, this has nothing to do with what he asked. "Damaging in that sense" can happen in both rest rooms. By that, lets stick with "being called names" etc, i don't assume some kid gets killed in a changing room. So the assumption is, if nobody attacks the transgender, is it damaging for him just by being around dudes instead of girls. edit: maybe i was wrong. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18488 Posts
On December 06 2015 03:34 Toadesstern wrote: well... they do face much higher threats of being hurt / murdered by people who got angry about them for whatever reason. Making people realize that it's a thing that exists would probably go a long way in reducing that risk of getting killed by someone who was angry. So wouldn't be surprised if it's actually damaging in that sense. I'd argue that that risk is actually higher if they insist on using other-sex locker rooms, but I am treading into unknown territory here and making an assumption here that the sex is the dominant aspect here, rather than gender. Either way, I can imagine some angry boyfriends and fathers wanting to beat up the perv with a penis in the girls' locker room... and similarly some fucked up dude wanting to touch the boobies in the guys' locker room. So if THAT's the damage you are talking about it seems like it would reinforce division by sex for locker rooms over division by gender. However, we all know that the people in the wrong here are the perpetrators of the violence, and not the transgendered person using the locker room, and I assume that kickstart was actually talking about psychological damage, and not the problem of being beaten up in the locker room. | ||
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