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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 16 2015 00:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 00:30 Plansix wrote:On October 16 2015 00:25 Sermokala wrote:On October 16 2015 00:20 oneofthem wrote:
that is not true. the gop is in shambles and if a democrat can get moderate republicans to work together they can definitely do a lot.
this move to the left stuff is counterproductive The GOP was much worse then this back in the post bush years but they managed to keep everyone voteing as one. The main issue right now is that the moderates in the GOP are worried about being unseated by the hard liners if they break ranks. Especially in the House. The democrats are less so, but its not like the GOP has anything on the table that they can bring forward to work with the moderate democrats right now. And they would need to have enough of them break ranks at once to work past the tea party hardliners. But it could happen at any time. I am sure there are some Republicans who hate the tea party hardliners a lot more than the Democrats. Its interesting that Democrats don't fear an attack from their left flank. Perhaps this is because they already went there. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2649215TLDR: Dems more polarized than Republicans, the moderate Democrat (Jim Webb) has no place in the party.
Always interesting that we never talk about this. The Democrats don't have a lot of dissent at the top level, which is why I feared the Dem debate would be boring.
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On October 16 2015 00:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 00:30 Plansix wrote:On October 16 2015 00:25 Sermokala wrote:On October 16 2015 00:20 oneofthem wrote:
that is not true. the gop is in shambles and if a democrat can get moderate republicans to work together they can definitely do a lot.
this move to the left stuff is counterproductive The GOP was much worse then this back in the post bush years but they managed to keep everyone voteing as one. The main issue right now is that the moderates in the GOP are worried about being unseated by the hard liners if they break ranks. Especially in the House. The democrats are less so, but its not like the GOP has anything on the table that they can bring forward to work with the moderate democrats right now. And they would need to have enough of them break ranks at once to work past the tea party hardliners. But it could happen at any time. I am sure there are some Republicans who hate the tea party hardliners a lot more than the Democrats. Its interesting that Democrats don't fear an attack from their left flank. Perhaps this is because they already went there. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2649215TLDR: Dems more polarized than Republicans, the moderate Democrat (Jim Webb) has no place in the party.
If by left you mean right of most of the developed world, sure.
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It is looking more and more likely that Speaker John Boehner will stiff House conservatives and push through an increase in the debt limit with the help of Democratic votes before he steps down. It would be a fitting parting shot to end his speakership.
If the last few years of budget brinkmanship and debt ceiling showdowns were theater, then a standalone, drama-free debt ceiling vote arranged by Boehner on his way out would be the play's denouement. It was Boehner after all, who starting in 2011, escalated the strategy of using debt ceiling votes to seek concessions on spending from Democrats.
GOP sources are telling reporters privately that Republican leadership has conceded that a debt ceiling hike will probably need to advanced on its own ahead of a Nov. 5 deadline, separate from the budget negotiations underway ahead of the government spending deadline Dec. 11. Publicly, Boehner's aides are, at the very least, not knocking down reports there will be a "clean" debt ceiling vote and anticipating that he will "solve some outstanding issues" such as a debt limit hike.
Lawmakers may argue whether the tactic was ever really successful; the Obama administration has signaled that it feels negotiating around the debt ceiling in 2011 was a major mistake. It also fueled a House GOP conference who came to view a game of chicken over the nation's credit rating to be the norm: “I prefer to think about it as opportunities and pinch points,” Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) told reporters last December.
Many of those lawmakers, after essentially forcing Boehner out under threat of a coup or a government shutdown, are now making life difficult for anyone who tries to replace him. A clean debt ceiling vote would be rebuke to them, if not a recognition that the approach was never very smart in the first place.
"There's never been a meaningful success in using this strategy, it's the legislative equivalent of banging their head against the wall repeatedly," said Jim Dyer, a former appropriations staff director and now a Republican strategist at the Podesta Group.
The White House and congressional Democrats have presented a united front in demanding a clean debt ceiling vote. "That’s not a negotiable provision. That is a requirement and that's our expectation ... that that is what the Congress should do," spokesman Josh Earnest said Wednesday. "I would point out that, thanks in part to Boehner’s leadership, that is actually what Congress has done the last few times."
But some in the Republican conference have held tight to the tactics of the 2011 showdown that brought spending caps, even after the episode led to the a downgrade of the U.S.'s credit rating. Time and time again since, GOP leaders have vowed to demand spending cuts ahead of a debt limit vote, only to back down, when push came to shove.
“There is no plan under John Boehner,” Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-KS), a leader of the House GOP's conservative, griped to The Hill this week. “They have no plan until the last minute and force it down the throats of the American people.”
Boehner's pending retirement undoubtably defuses concerns of a possible blowback from within his caucus. Moving on the issue before the speaker's election means its one less thing Boehner's successor will have to make promises on in exchange for conservatives' support.
"Speaker Boehner is probably as free as he ever is going to be to follow this approach," Bill Hoagland, senior vice president at the Bipartisan Policy Center. There's also the landscape for the 2016 race to consider, with not just the presidency on the line, but swing seats in the Senate that Republicans need to hold to maintain control.
"The last thing they want to make it look like is that Republicans can't govern and defaulting on our obligation for the first time in history would be a major setback for Republicans," Hoagland said.
For Boehner to abandon the politics of budget brinkmanship on his way out the door is ironic both because of how the rolling series of crises defined his speakership and because in the end it got him nowhere.
Source
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 16 2015 00:44 notesfromunderground wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 00:39 oneofthem wrote:
jim webb is a man of action that gets shit done. vote for him guys that's why Sanders/Webb is the ideal ticket
definitely not sanders first. webb/sanders may be ok
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On October 16 2015 01:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +It is looking more and more likely that Speaker John Boehner will stiff House conservatives and push through an increase in the debt limit with the help of Democratic votes before he steps down. It would be a fitting parting shot to end his speakership.
If the last few years of budget brinkmanship and debt ceiling showdowns were theater, then a standalone, drama-free debt ceiling vote arranged by Boehner on his way out would be the play's denouement. It was Boehner after all, who starting in 2011, escalated the strategy of using debt ceiling votes to seek concessions on spending from Democrats.
GOP sources are telling reporters privately that Republican leadership has conceded that a debt ceiling hike will probably need to advanced on its own ahead of a Nov. 5 deadline, separate from the budget negotiations underway ahead of the government spending deadline Dec. 11. Publicly, Boehner's aides are, at the very least, not knocking down reports there will be a "clean" debt ceiling vote and anticipating that he will "solve some outstanding issues" such as a debt limit hike.
Lawmakers may argue whether the tactic was ever really successful; the Obama administration has signaled that it feels negotiating around the debt ceiling in 2011 was a major mistake. It also fueled a House GOP conference who came to view a game of chicken over the nation's credit rating to be the norm: “I prefer to think about it as opportunities and pinch points,” Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) told reporters last December.
Many of those lawmakers, after essentially forcing Boehner out under threat of a coup or a government shutdown, are now making life difficult for anyone who tries to replace him. A clean debt ceiling vote would be rebuke to them, if not a recognition that the approach was never very smart in the first place.
"There's never been a meaningful success in using this strategy, it's the legislative equivalent of banging their head against the wall repeatedly," said Jim Dyer, a former appropriations staff director and now a Republican strategist at the Podesta Group.
The White House and congressional Democrats have presented a united front in demanding a clean debt ceiling vote. "That’s not a negotiable provision. That is a requirement and that's our expectation ... that that is what the Congress should do," spokesman Josh Earnest said Wednesday. "I would point out that, thanks in part to Boehner’s leadership, that is actually what Congress has done the last few times."
But some in the Republican conference have held tight to the tactics of the 2011 showdown that brought spending caps, even after the episode led to the a downgrade of the U.S.'s credit rating. Time and time again since, GOP leaders have vowed to demand spending cuts ahead of a debt limit vote, only to back down, when push came to shove.
“There is no plan under John Boehner,” Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-KS), a leader of the House GOP's conservative, griped to The Hill this week. “They have no plan until the last minute and force it down the throats of the American people.”
Boehner's pending retirement undoubtably defuses concerns of a possible blowback from within his caucus. Moving on the issue before the speaker's election means its one less thing Boehner's successor will have to make promises on in exchange for conservatives' support.
"Speaker Boehner is probably as free as he ever is going to be to follow this approach," Bill Hoagland, senior vice president at the Bipartisan Policy Center. There's also the landscape for the 2016 race to consider, with not just the presidency on the line, but swing seats in the Senate that Republicans need to hold to maintain control.
"The last thing they want to make it look like is that Republicans can't govern and defaulting on our obligation for the first time in history would be a major setback for Republicans," Hoagland said.
For Boehner to abandon the politics of budget brinkmanship on his way out the door is ironic both because of how the rolling series of crises defined his speakership and because in the end it got him nowhere. Source
Lame ducks are favorite ducks
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On October 16 2015 01:16 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 01:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:It is looking more and more likely that Speaker John Boehner will stiff House conservatives and push through an increase in the debt limit with the help of Democratic votes before he steps down. It would be a fitting parting shot to end his speakership.
If the last few years of budget brinkmanship and debt ceiling showdowns were theater, then a standalone, drama-free debt ceiling vote arranged by Boehner on his way out would be the play's denouement. It was Boehner after all, who starting in 2011, escalated the strategy of using debt ceiling votes to seek concessions on spending from Democrats.
GOP sources are telling reporters privately that Republican leadership has conceded that a debt ceiling hike will probably need to advanced on its own ahead of a Nov. 5 deadline, separate from the budget negotiations underway ahead of the government spending deadline Dec. 11. Publicly, Boehner's aides are, at the very least, not knocking down reports there will be a "clean" debt ceiling vote and anticipating that he will "solve some outstanding issues" such as a debt limit hike.
Lawmakers may argue whether the tactic was ever really successful; the Obama administration has signaled that it feels negotiating around the debt ceiling in 2011 was a major mistake. It also fueled a House GOP conference who came to view a game of chicken over the nation's credit rating to be the norm: “I prefer to think about it as opportunities and pinch points,” Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) told reporters last December.
Many of those lawmakers, after essentially forcing Boehner out under threat of a coup or a government shutdown, are now making life difficult for anyone who tries to replace him. A clean debt ceiling vote would be rebuke to them, if not a recognition that the approach was never very smart in the first place.
"There's never been a meaningful success in using this strategy, it's the legislative equivalent of banging their head against the wall repeatedly," said Jim Dyer, a former appropriations staff director and now a Republican strategist at the Podesta Group.
The White House and congressional Democrats have presented a united front in demanding a clean debt ceiling vote. "That’s not a negotiable provision. That is a requirement and that's our expectation ... that that is what the Congress should do," spokesman Josh Earnest said Wednesday. "I would point out that, thanks in part to Boehner’s leadership, that is actually what Congress has done the last few times."
But some in the Republican conference have held tight to the tactics of the 2011 showdown that brought spending caps, even after the episode led to the a downgrade of the U.S.'s credit rating. Time and time again since, GOP leaders have vowed to demand spending cuts ahead of a debt limit vote, only to back down, when push came to shove.
“There is no plan under John Boehner,” Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-KS), a leader of the House GOP's conservative, griped to The Hill this week. “They have no plan until the last minute and force it down the throats of the American people.”
Boehner's pending retirement undoubtably defuses concerns of a possible blowback from within his caucus. Moving on the issue before the speaker's election means its one less thing Boehner's successor will have to make promises on in exchange for conservatives' support.
"Speaker Boehner is probably as free as he ever is going to be to follow this approach," Bill Hoagland, senior vice president at the Bipartisan Policy Center. There's also the landscape for the 2016 race to consider, with not just the presidency on the line, but swing seats in the Senate that Republicans need to hold to maintain control.
"The last thing they want to make it look like is that Republicans can't govern and defaulting on our obligation for the first time in history would be a major setback for Republicans," Hoagland said.
For Boehner to abandon the politics of budget brinkmanship on his way out the door is ironic both because of how the rolling series of crises defined his speakership and because in the end it got him nowhere. Source Lame ducks are favorite ducks
It’s sort of fitting that he is working with the Democrats to deal with the deal ceiling, which never should have been political tool to begin with. And the tea party continues to whine about there not being a plan, when they themselves have never really provided one beyond “lets debt” and “remove all things Obama did”.
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I don't think a man who looks like MODOK and is at 0% in the betting markets can win the presidency.
+ Show Spoiler +(seriously, he looks like a Marvel comics supervillain) ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1254982406/modok1.gif)
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Hilariously Dennis Hastert, of hastert rule fame, is likely going to jail
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On October 16 2015 01:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
Hilariously Dennis Hastert, of hastert rule fame, is likely going to jail
Its really surreal in Illinois about him. I won a wrestling tournament that was named for him years ago. He also has a school that they were planning on renaming after him.
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On October 16 2015 01:12 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 00:44 notesfromunderground wrote:On October 16 2015 00:39 oneofthem wrote:
jim webb is a man of action that gets shit done. vote for him guys that's why Sanders/Webb is the ideal ticket definitely not sanders first. webb/sanders may be ok
Sure, if you want to abandon the huge enthusiasm that Sanders is generating and lose the general election. Sanders is the only way the Dems can win IMO. If Sanders doesn't headline the ticket I would vote Jill Stein and I don't think I'm alone.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 16 2015 02:25 notesfromunderground wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 01:12 oneofthem wrote:On October 16 2015 00:44 notesfromunderground wrote:On October 16 2015 00:39 oneofthem wrote:
jim webb is a man of action that gets shit done. vote for him guys that's why Sanders/Webb is the ideal ticket definitely not sanders first. webb/sanders may be ok Sure, if you want to abandon the huge enthusiasm that Sanders is generating and lose the general election. Sanders is the only way the Dems can win IMO. If Sanders doesn't headline the ticket I would vote Jill Stein and I don't think I'm alone.
sanders would get destroyed in the General
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I think you're utterly wrong but we'll just have to see :p
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On October 16 2015 02:25 notesfromunderground wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 01:12 oneofthem wrote:On October 16 2015 00:44 notesfromunderground wrote:On October 16 2015 00:39 oneofthem wrote:
jim webb is a man of action that gets shit done. vote for him guys that's why Sanders/Webb is the ideal ticket definitely not sanders first. webb/sanders may be ok Sure, if you want to abandon the huge enthusiasm that Sanders is generating and lose the general election. Sanders is the only way the Dems can win IMO. If Sanders doesn't headline the ticket I would vote Jill Stein and I don't think I'm alone.
you would probably be pretty alone with that, yes
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On October 16 2015 02:34 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 02:25 notesfromunderground wrote:On October 16 2015 01:12 oneofthem wrote:On October 16 2015 00:44 notesfromunderground wrote:On October 16 2015 00:39 oneofthem wrote:
jim webb is a man of action that gets shit done. vote for him guys that's why Sanders/Webb is the ideal ticket definitely not sanders first. webb/sanders may be ok Sure, if you want to abandon the huge enthusiasm that Sanders is generating and lose the general election. Sanders is the only way the Dems can win IMO. If Sanders doesn't headline the ticket I would vote Jill Stein and I don't think I'm alone. you would probably be pretty alone with that, yes
I don't know why you think that. Sanders is motivating lots of people who either would otherwise be too disenchanted to vote or who would not vote for a democrat.
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I just think that there is no hope
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On October 16 2015 02:38 Paljas wrote:
I just think that there is no hope
We're in hail mary territory here
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I'm not voting for Hillary if she gets nominated over Sanders.
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On October 16 2015 02:48 IgnE wrote:
I'm not voting for Hillary if she gets nominated over Sanders.
I will need to seen what nightmare the Republicans put forth. But there is no decision at all if its Trump.
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I would vote for Trump over Clinton
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I feel like a lot of people forgot First Lady Hillary and how she really made her mark in that role.
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EPT
